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FP replied 😋
Had you responded too?? You shouldn't have edited it. I was just trying to put forward your point but you would have done it much better
FP replied 😋
Had you responded too?? You shouldn't have edited it. I was just trying to put forward your point but you would have done it much better
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Had you responded too?? You shouldn't have edited it. I was just trying to put forward your point but you would have done it much better
Nah, You did it better
I was just saying that 18 books and 1 lakh poems are not Vyasa's work or writing style, Janmejaya's name is mentioned in these poems meaning they were constructed by a different poet
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Hey you raised good points, but I meant that Duryodhan just somehow escaped to win at the last day and did put his son on the throne, the casualties remaining the same, with only expectation that all the Pandavas died by the last day. ..
Anyhow I don't think they could have completely ignored something as important as Vastraharan and the Lakshagriha conspiracy. Yes they could have focussed on the Pandavas failing to fulfill the Agyatwaas rule yet claiming for their return
Are we assuming here that Krishna had any role in this, or not? If he did, then he wouldn't have let the first 17 days pass by and all of the Kaurava elders - Bheeshma, Drona, Bhurishrava, et al die and only Duryodhan survive. Besides, in your scenario, Lakshman was dead, and not known to have been married, so how would his descendants have come into the picture?
And if he didn't have any role, the Pandavas would have lost the war simply by being outnumbered. Arjun and Bhima, great as they were, were nowhere near enough to take on the likes of all the Kaurava war veterans that led the 11 akshaunis. Someone like, say a Drona, could easily have locked up Arjun in combat, someone else like Bhurishrava, done the same for Bhima, a Kripa for Satyaki and the rest of their generals - Bheeshma, Ashwatthama, Jayadrath, Kritavarma, Bhagadatta, et al could have just had a field day w/ the rest of the Pandava army, including the likes of Yudhisthir, Nakul, Sahadev, Dhrishtadyumna, Drupada, Virata, Dhrishtaketu, Sahadev, Purujit and Abhimanyu
Whoever has read Mahabharata unabridged versions would have read the episodes of
1.Episodes oF Khandavadahn, Kiratayuddh, defeat of Kalakeya and Nivatkavacha
2. Episodes where Bhima defeated and killed Hidimb Bakasur Jarasandh Kirmir Jatasur Rakshasa army of Kubera's at Gandhamadana mountains
3. Ghoshayatra Parva where Arjun and Bhima defeated the Gandharva or Jayadrath humiliation episode
Winning the war was never any issue of Bhima and Arjun
Killing Bhishma Drona was
The biggest defect the Pandavas had was fear of elders.
In their rule book disobeying a elder was sin. If not then Arjun Bhima and twins would not have let Yudhishtir stake them or silently watched Draupadi assaulted. Yudhishitir would not have accepted the partition of Hastinapur and settled in barren Indraprasth or accepted the invitation for the two dice games
For the war to end they had to kill Bhishma and Drona who had decided to fight for Kouravas. Not just defeat them but kill them.
They were even willing to live in forest than kill their elders,
Krishna was needed to solve this problem. Gita gyan to Arjuna's was for this purpose, convince him to kill Bhishma and Drona. But he still wouldn't. When Iravan was killed even then Arjuna wouldn't kill Bhishma or Drona. Krishna had to threaten to break his oath. Arjuna still didnt. Finally Krishna had to use force and Shikhandi to kill Bhishma.
Even when it was Drona who planned Abhimanyu vadh, Arjuna went chasing Jayadrath instead of killing Drona. He had to use Dhrishtadyumn to kill Drona.
Because Pandavas including Arjun and Bhima would just not kill them come what may. And while they were alive Bhishma and Drona were shielding Duryodhan even if not his son or brothers.
Krishna did only one job got Bhishma and Drona killed. But it took him 10 days to get Arjun to kill Bhishma and 5 more days to get Drona killed.
War was over in 2 and half days after that. Freaking 2 and half days.
Arjun had Infact dropped his Gandiva before the war started.
Yudhishtir was crybaby when it came to being called a sinner. He would rather beg alms than be called a sinner. It was Krishna who had to drill it into him that you will not be called a sinner because I will go to Hastinapur and make sure Durydodhan is blamed for this war and you are not.
Durydodhan would win without even fighting if Krishna had not been on the side of Pandavas, because it was Krishna who made them fight and it was Krishna who got Bhishma and Drona killed
Originally posted by: Chiillii
Yudhishitir would not have accepted the partition of Hastinapur and settled in barren Indraprasth or accepted the invitation for the two dice games
Contrary to how BRC seemed to equate this partition w/ the partition of India in 1947, partitioning kingdoms b/w princes was a pretty common practice in those times. Even in case of Yayati, each of his sons started 5 dynasties, and those kept branching out into newer kingdoms and dynasties. As a result, Dhritarashtra did nothing wrong by partitioning Hastinapur and giving the Pandavas Khandavprastha:
As far as the invitation to the dice games, for kshatriyas, a dice game was a form of combat, similar to an archery combat or a sword fight or a mace duel. If challenged, a kshatriya had to accept it. That was the rationale for Yudhisthir accepting the challenge: it wasn't b'cos of any subservience to Dhritarashtra
Originally posted by: Chiillii
Whoever has read Mahabharata unabridged versions would have read the episodes of
1.Episodes oF Khandavadahn, Kiratayuddh, defeat of Kalakeya and Nivatkavacha
2. Episodes where Bhima defeated and killed Hidimb Bakasur Jarasandh Kirmir Jatasur Rakshasa army of Kubera's at Gandhamadana mountains
3. Ghoshayatra Parva where Arjun and Bhima defeated the Gandharva or Jayadrath humiliation episode
Winning the war was never any issue of Bhima and Arjun
Killing Bhishma Drona was
The biggest defect the Pandavas had was fear of elders.
....
For the war to end they had to kill Bhishma and Drona who had decided to fight for Kouravas. Not just defeat them but kill them.
They were even willing to live in forest than kill their elders,
Krishna was needed to solve this problem. Gita gyan to Arjuna's was for this purpose, convince him to kill Bhishma and Drona. But he still wouldn't. When Iravan was killed even then Arjuna wouldn't kill Bhishma or Drona. Krishna had to threaten to break his oath. Arjuna still didnt. Finally Krishna had to use force and Shikhandi to kill Bhishma.
Even when it was Drona who planned Abhimanyu vadh, Arjuna went chasing Jayadrath instead of killing Drona. He had to use Dhrishtadyumn to kill Drona.
Because Pandavas including Arjun and Bhima would just not kill them come what may. And while they were alive Bhishma and Drona were shielding Duryodhan even if not his son or brothers.
Krishna did only one job got Bhishma and Drona killed. But it took him 10 days to get Arjun to kill Bhishma and 5 more days to get Drona killed.
War was over in 2 and half days after that. Freaking 2 and half days.
Arjun had Infact dropped his Gandiva before the war started.
Yudhishtir was crybaby when it came to being called a sinner. He would rather beg alms than be called a sinner. It was Krishna who had to drill it into him that you will not be called a sinner because I will go to Hastinapur and make sure Durydodhan is blamed for this war and you are not.
Durydodhan would win without even fighting if Krishna had not been on the side of Pandavas, because it was Krishna who made them fight and it was Krishna who got Bhishma and Drona killed
Bhima's defeat of various rakshashas was more a display of pure physical prowess, than a talent w/ divine weapons, which he had, but which was more than equaled by the likes of Ashwatthama and maybe Bheeshma. That would have been easily defeated by warriors using divyastras, just like Karna could kill Ghatotkacha and Ashwatthama could kill Anjanaparva.
Krishna threatened to break his oath on day 3 or 4. Arjun did fight seriously after that, but there wasn't a reluctance to kill Bheeshma or Drona, simply an inability, and also the fact that he was outnumbered: either Bheeshma or Drona could lock him in battle any given day, Bhurishrava could lock up Satyaki in combat (on day 6, ten of Satyaki's sons were killed by him), an Ashwatthama or Kripa could lock up Bhima and then the rest of the Kaurava veterans easily overwhelmed the rest of the Pandavas.
Iravana was killed on day 7 or 8 by Alambusha, a rakshasha and son of Bakasura: that wasn't a provocation by either Bheeshma or Drona. Bheeshma killed Arjun's bahu's brother Sveta, Shalya killed Uttar and Drona killed Shankha. That was a good enough reason for Arjun to retaliate, but he was not overwhelming enough to defeat them, despite his boasts. It was only by using Shikhandi that Arjun could lay low Bheeshma.
On Abhimanyu, I do agree that Jayadrath was no more culpable of his death than Drona. But I think that the fact that Jayadrath could keep the entire Pandava army - not just YBNS - from joining Abhimanyu - showed him as the biggest threat to the Pandavas, which may have been a strategic reason to target him first and get him removed. As for Drona, already Dhrishtadyumna was born for the purpose of killing him, although the fact that he could never defeat him in a straight combat and always had to be salvaged by either Satyaki or Bhima makes one wonder what sort of a boon the gods had for Drupada. But yeah, it was only after Drona had slain every major Pandava ally - Dhrishtaketu, Sahadev of Magadha, Satyajit, Vikra, Purujit, Virata, Drupada and 3 of Dhrishtadyumna's sons - and was using divyastras on the hapless Panchala troops - that the Pandavas decided to deceive him and get him to lay down his arms so that Dhrishtadyumna could kill him. But before that, the Pandavas were seriously fighting Drona and Bheeshma, but were simply unable to kill them. And look at Karna, who the Pandavas had no hangups about slaying: they had a tough time fighting him. Only Bhima stood his ground, YNS were humiliated in battle while Arjun had to be initially shielded by Ghatotkacha and later slay him while he was removing his chariot wheel.
But the point is that even after Bheeshma and Drona, there was still Kripa and Shalya, but the Pandavas didn't hesitate to slay the latter cheating even more than the Kauravas did w/ Abhimanyu. So it wasn't a reluctance by the Pandavas to fight seriously: it was a sheer inability to defeat the top Kaurava commanders in a straightforward combat. Heck, they even had to cheat while fighting the likes of Bhurishrava and Shalya, forget about Bheeshma, Drona and Karna
Duryodhan wouldn't have won without even a shot being fired, but he would have won the war in battle due to Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwatthama, Bhurishrava, Kritavarma and Shalya, even without Karna entering the war. Since he had more superior generals (even if one grants that Bhima, Arjun and Satyaki were #1-3) and an 11:7 advantage at the start of the war. In fact, it was that belief that encouraged him to seek to defend his position as the sole ruler. Putting aside the game of dice events, which ruler do you know of who would surrender any part of his kingdom despite having such an overwhelming military advantage? To the point of even winning over one of the in-laws of his enemies (Madra)
Oh God this discussion took a very serious note. I had just raised a simple hypothetical question after having seen the super glorification of Arjun.
It was simply this narrative in the poem which made me wonder had a win of Duryodhan made him the defender of Dharma and Pandavas the Adharmis!!!
This turned into a discussion on whether Duryodhan winning was possible or not.
By the way Vrish Bhai we had discussed this on our forum itself, Bheeshm had actually attacked Shikhandi on day seven. Post which Shikhandi tried to run and escape and Yudhishtir asked him to hold his ground. Hence this entire narrative of Bheeshm not able to attack Shikhandi suddenly loses the plot. I will share the link it has all the discussions and citations. That entire Shikhandi story seems some kind of a cover up
Coming to the killing of Dron, agreed he was very fierce on the days especially the last day (I was way too happy that his evil friend Drupad didn't see him dying and himself died earlier) but prior to that day he was not able to do any notable. In fact on day 11 and 12 he was nearly quiet. He could not arrest Yudhishtir despite Shusharma having taken Arjun, which means also Krishna away. So things were not that Simple as you are assuming.
Karna not arresting Yudhishtir despite having defeated him is another proof. He had promised not to kill Yudhishtir, nothing stopped him from arresting Yudhishtir, still he didn't
Actually the discussion also give me some insights, were Pandavas actually good or better than Kauravas?
To give an example think of Bheem and Hindimbi. If we remove any divinity angle, Ved Vyas ji couldn't have known the conversation between them out of nowhere. He would have had to believe what the people there said. Which is only Pandavas and Kunti or Hindimbi.
They would have told Ved Vyas ji that Hindimbi approached Bheem for a son and Bheem complied
But for once think from a completely neutral point of view, like for example you would judge the respected figures of other religions you hate.
Will a girl approach the murderer of her brother for a kid immidiately after the murder? He stayed with Hindimbi for a year and Ghatochkach was already some days old when Bheem left. Ghatochkach is no where mentioned to be a premature baby (or is he? Please confirm someone) so it seems she conceived within a month of the murder of her brother by his murderer. Definitely we can't say it was a zero probability thing, but the chances of this is undoubtedly very less if you go by the psyche of a girl irrespective of how bad a human her brother might have been. Plus the assumption that she needed a son as a protector doesn't make much sense either if you ask me because if it was difficult for a single lady to survive then survival for a lady with an infant wasn't any easier
Couldn't the case be reverse? Instead of Hindimbi approaching Bheem, it was Bheem who approached Hindimbi and fearing her death too, she complied! Can we rule out this possibility? I don't think we can but since the only people to have known the actual occurrence were the supporters of Bheem so we got this narrative
Probably (just probably) Pandavas too weren't as good as we know them to be
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Oh God this discussion took a very serious note. I had just raised a simple hypothetical question after having seen the super glorification of Arjun.
It was simply this narrative in the poem which made me wonder had a win of Duryodhan made him the defender of Dharma and Pandavas the Adharmis!!!
This turned into a discussion on whether Duryodhan winning was possible or not.
By the way Vrish Bhai we had discussed this on our forum itself, Bheeshm had actually attacked Shikhandi on day seven. Post which Shikhandi tried to run and escape and Yudhishtir asked him to hold his ground. Hence this entire narrative of Bheeshm not able to attack Shikhandi suddenly loses the plot. I will share the link it has all the discussions and citations. That entire Shikhandi story seems some kind of a cover up
Coming to the killing of Dron, agreed he was very fierce on the days especially the last day (I was way too happy that his evil friend Drupad didn't see him dying and himself died earlier) but prior to that day he was not able to do any notable. In fact on day 11 and 12 he was nearly quiet. He could not arrest Yudhishtir despite Shusharma having taken Arjun, which means also Krishna away. So things were not that Simple as you are assuming.
Karna not arresting Yudhishtir despite having defeated him is another proof. He had promised not to kill Yudhishtir, nothing stopped him from arresting Yudhishtir, still he didn't
Apologies if I'm the one who hijacked the discussion
Do you have the citation of a Bheeshma-Shikhandi battle? In Ramanand Sagar's Shri Krishna, they showed Bheeshma disarm Shikhandi on day 1 and continue progressing, and ultimately killing Uttar (guess they didn't wanna introduce Sveta into the story). Which day did that battle take place? Interestingly, why would Bheeshma be the only one who'd have compunctions in fighting Shikhandi, when the latter is one of the 7 Pandava akshauni commanders?
Actually, on day 12, Arjun was busy w/ Bhagadatta, and on day 11, Drona was pretty fierce and killed Drupada's oldest sons Satyajit and Vikra, who were protecting Yudhisthir. On day 13, it wasn't Susharma but the Shamshaptakas - the army that Krishna gave Duryodhan, who challenged Arjun and led him away from the centerstage. Although it was a stupid vow that Arjun was following - he should have been disciplined and been a team player, and been w/ the army. Then even if Jayadrath still defeated his brothers, he and Abhimanyu could have still broken thru the chakravyuha and caused even more havoc.
Also, while the serials don't show it, on day 14, Drona still had the goal of capturing Yudhisthir, and was at the forefront of the army for that very purpose. Which is why Arjun asked Satyaki to protect Yudhisthir, and when the latter was worried about not hearing from Arjun, he asked Satyaki to go in and see, and later Bhima, who Satyaki had assigned his homework. Once Arjun, Satyaki and Bhima had gone past Arjun and deep into Kaurava ranks, Drona created havoc in the Pandava ranks, defeating YNS, and killing the rulers of Kekaya, Chedi, Magadha and Srinjaya. The Pandavas lost a lot of their rulers on day 14, and on night 14, Drona killed Purujit, the brother of Kunti.
Karna not capturing Yudhisthir was probably a part of his Kunti promise: if he captured Yudhisthir and Duryodhan then had the latter killed, Karna would have indirectly broken his promise to Kunti.
EVIDENCE THAT BHEESHMA ATTACKED SHIKHANDI
King Yudhishthira then, beholding Sikhandin flying away, having had his weapon cut off by Santanu's son became filled with anger. The high-souled Ajatasatru, angrily addressing Sikhandin in that battle, said these words, 'Thou saidst at that time, in the presence of thy sire, unto me--Even I shall slay Bhishma of high vows with my shafts of the hue of the effulgent sun.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06086.htm
EVIDENCE THAT BHEESHMA NEVER LAY DOWN HIS WEAPONS
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06120.htm
Then Bhishma, whose bows were thus cut off, excited with rage, and licking the corners of his mouth, took up a dart that was capable of riving a hill. In rage he hurled it at Phalguni's car
...
Having listened to these words of the celestials, Santanu's son Bhishma of great ascetic merit rushed out at Vibhatsu, even though he was then being pierced with sharp arrows capable of penetrating through every armour. Then Sikhandin, O king, excited with rage, struck the grandsire of the Bharatas in the chest with nine sharp arrows. The Kuru grandsire Bhishma, however, though struck by him in battle, thus, trembled not, O monarch, but remained unmoved like a mountain during an earthquake. Then Vibhatsu, drawing his bow Gandiva with a laugh, pierced the son of Ganga with five and twenty arrows. And once more, Dhananjaya, with great speed and excited with wrath struck him in every vital part with hundreds of arrows. Thus pierced by others, also with thousands of arrows, the mighty car-warrior Bhishma pierced those others in return with great speed
...
. Saying these words, Bhishma, the valiant son of Santanu, as if for the object of consuming the Pandavas, hurled a dart at Partha. Partha, however, caused that dart to drop down, cutting it into three fragments with three shafts, in the very sight, O Bharata, of all the Kuru heroes of thy army.
CITATIONS THAT SHIKHANDI KILLED BHEESHMA
Dhritarashtra said, 'Alas, what was the state of (my) warriors, O Sanjaya, when they were deprived of the mighty and god-like Bhishma who had become a Brahmacharin for the sake of his reverend sire? Even then I regarded the Kurus and all the others as slain by the Pandavas when Bhishma, despising the son of Drupada, struck him not. Wretch that I am, also, I hear today of my sire's slaughter. What can be a heavier sorrow than this? My heart assuredly, O Sanjaya, is made of adamant, since it breaketh not into a hundred fragments on hearing of Bhishma's death! Tell me, O thou of excellent vows, what was done by that lion among the Kurus, viz., the victory-desiring Bhishma when he was slain in battle. I cannot at all brook it that Devavrata should be slain in battle. Alas, he that was not slain by Jamadagni's son himself in days of old by means of even his celestial weapons, alas, he hath now been slain by Drupada's son Sikhandin, the prince of Panchala!—
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06121.htm
I came to battle, placing that grandsire of mine, viz., the heroic Bhishma, at our head. Having slain him, Sikhandin, his aspiration fulfilled, stayeth at the very van of all the troops, surrounded by all the Panchalas, covetous of another triumph. 3
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07146.htm
Thou hast charged Partha, that bull among men, with the slaughter of Bhishma. The latter, however, viz., that illustrious personage, himself accomplished his own death. Truly speaking, the uterine brother, (viz., Sikhandin), that foremost of all sinners, was the cause of Bhishma's death. There is none in the world that is more sinful than the sons of the Panchala king. Thy father had created Sikhandin for the destruction of Bhishma. As regards Arjuna, he had only, protected Sikhandin while Sikhandin became the cause of the
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08073.htm
O Partha, it is owing to their having been always protected by thee that Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi succeeded in slaying Drona and Bhishma.
...
Encountering him, Shikhandi, protected by thee, slew that tiger among men with his straight shafts. Having obtained thee that art a tiger among men (as his foe), that grandsire is now stretched on a bed of arrows, illustrious Bhishma's death
(This was Krishna to Arjuna)
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08074.htm
Today, slaying Karna in dreadful battle, I will pay off my debt, O Madhava, to the Pancalas with Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi!
(Arjuna himself!)
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07195.htm
"Vasudeva said, 'The feats were highly wonderful that were achieved by those high-souled Kshatriyas. In consequence of their large number, they are incapable of being enumerated in even hundreds of years. I shall however, mention only the foremost of them. Do thou listen, therefore, to me as I mention in brief those feats achieved by the kings of Earth. O thou of godlike splendour. Bhishma of Kuru's race became the generalissimo, having eleven divisions of the Kaurava princes under his command, like Vasava of the celestial forces. 1 Sikhandin of great intelligence, protected by the blessed Arjuna, became the leader of the seven divisions of the sons of Pandu. The battle between the Kurus and the Pandavas (under these leaders) raged for ten days. It was so fierce as to make one's hair stand on its end. Then Sikhandin, in great battle, aided by the wielder of Gandiva, slew, with innumerable arrows, the son of Ganga fighting bravely. Lying on a bed of arrows, Bhishma waited like an ascetic till the sun leaving his southward path entered on his northerly course when that hero gave up his life-breaths.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14060.htm
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