Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 23

Originally posted by: paartha

Thanks varaali for the explanation. 

With regards to Sri Adi Shankaracharya and Advaitha philosophy, have few questions. I have just started reading the holy texts recently, so my understanding is limited. Could you please clarify the below:

A) As per my understanding, Sri Adi Shankaracharya propounded supreme consciousness as the driver for everything. And, that supreme consciousness can be realized by anyone through Knowledge. And, there is no specific creator who drives this universe but only that supreme consciousness. If that is the case, then what was the reason for writing devotional hymns dedicated to various Gods like Lord Shiva, Lord Narasimha, Lord Krishna and so on. If one can achieve Moksh only through knowledge(Gnana) then what was the purpose of establishing idols/statues of God/Goddess in the Peeths, and performing prayers to the God/Goddess.

Answering the part highlighted in green above.

Chanting devotional hymns / doing puja etc is a very important step towards gaining jnana. They may not be an end in themselves but they cannot be bypassed either. If you have read the Shaankara Bhashyas, you will find that Shankara paid utmost importance to the performance of agnihotra and other mandated kriyas. But the main point to be remembered is that such kriyas...puja/ bhajan/ agnihotra karmas are  a valuable step in the achieveing the final goal- which is - the supreme jnana, but not an end in themselves. 

B) If supreme consciousness pervades everything and a person's deeds determine his destiny, then in that case why it is important to perform rituals after death. Also, as I understand everyone is accounted for his actions/karma, then in that case, how can final rites performed by others drives a person's destiny after his death in the next birth. I mean to say a person's account of karma in that lifecycle ends with his death and he takes a new life form/ gets liberation based on his karma. So, in my view after his death, performing of final rites by others(whose actions are not in the control of the dead person) can drive his destiny in the future seems inconsistent.

I never said Post death rituals  determine the 'destiny' of the next birth. Whether the aatma takes goes immediately into another womb or has the capacity to wait and decide depends on the spiritual strength made by the person in the previous life (the life that has just ended). But post death rituals are important from days 1 to 11 when the aatma, now bereft of the body, is indeed dependent on the next-of-kin- supplying it with rice and water. On the 11 day, the aatma is made to merge with the pitrus (the sapindeekaranam rite) and is freed from the physical world and made to join the pitruloka. These 11 days, the aatma is dependent on someone else doing this kriya. Its next janma is determined by its own actions in its previous janma. 

All these are applicable only to ordinary common worldly people and not to saints and mahatmas

Hope it is clear.

Also, why do we have regular pujas performed to Lord Shiva/Goddess Sharadamba in the peeths established by Sri Adi Shankaracharya, if he has clearly stated there is no specific creator/creators who govern the universe. Also, what was the reason of installing various Yantra and so on. If gnana liberates one from the cycle of birth and death, then what is the reason for the existence of Bhakthi mode and ritual modes in these peeths.

I have struggled to understand these in context of Advaitha Philosophy.

As said earlier, these actions are required for chitta shuddhi. Bhakti puja, agnihotra etc karma are all mandatory.. till the stage of gyana is reached. If you have read about advaita philosophy, you would know that jnana karma samuchaya is not possible as per advaita. A person cannot sit in a corner, do nothing and hope for gyana to emerge suddenly. A person has to compulsorily do all the nitya vidhi which is applicable to him depending on his ashrama (grihasta/brahmachari/etc)  and varna. But he cannot assume that performance of karma alone will lead him to moksha. 

Some modern day ku-tarkis argue that " bhagavan says in the gita ...just do your duty without attachment...you be liberated" This is utter nonsense. Jnana alone can lead to liberation, but to achieve that jnana, doing karma ( not just physical work, but also puja, bhajan etc) is unavoidable. 

Hope it is clear now. 

In the case of Sri Ramanujacharya, he propounds the philosophy, where there is a supreme creator in the form of Lord Vishnu who drives everything. And, human beings seeking Moksh can follow Bhakthi marg and get liberated and ultimately join the blissful state where they are eternally united with Lord Vishnu. This concept as I understand synthesizes Bhakthi with acceptance of a supreme creator, who when required takes the form of various avatars to run the universe.

Please correct me, if I have misstated anything or for lack of my understanding of these topics.

Thank you very much varaali for clarifying the doubts.🙏

Still, feel there is some inconsistency in the teaching and the actual practices of Advaita by Sri Adi Shankaracharya. If I'm not wrong Sri Adi Shankaracharya composed hymn instantaneously on Lord Narasimha, when he was faced with some dangers and had mystical vision and experience of the Lord. But, as per my limited reading, I did not find in Advaita philosophy, any discussion about such mystical experiences or having visions of God. Also, Advaita philosophy which rules out any specific creator/God, seems more or less similar to Buddhism in some aspects. The main difference between them at the highest level seems to be that, one believes in Aatma while the other doesn't, even though both believe in the cycle of life and death.

Actually, I like your way of explanation, bhakthi marg and karma marg should go together to achieve jnana which finally results in Moksh. Lord Krishna in Gita points out various ways which seems logical, as not all persons would have the spiritual and intellectual capacity to directly jump into understanding sophisticated texts related to gaining of knowledge. 

Thanks again for your time.

Originally posted by: Viswasruti

This is such a wonderful thread full of knowledge. With Mina's guidance, it flourished like a spring garden for spiritual understanding! I don't want to leave it to go back to oblivion, people should know the level of knowledge/ awareness the IF members have in Mythology and Epics such as Ramayan, Mahabharath, and in Upanishads, this thread is the replica of that wisdom. 

I am a bit busy at present, would love to be back here to know more and more from the revered members here.

Thanks for bringing it to the forefront Partha. 🤗

Thanks for sharing your views with us. This thread is epic. I'm amazed by what I read and I hope it keeps going and the learning never stops.

Originally posted by: Y12345

Thanks for sharing your views with us. This thread is epic. I'm amazed by what I read and I hope it keeps going and the learning never stops.

Originally posted by paartha

Originally posted by Varali --Red

Thanks varaali for the explanation. 

With regards to Sri Adi Shankaracharya and Advaitha philosophy, have few questions. I have just started reading the holy texts recently, so my understanding is limited. Could you please clarify the below:

A) As per my understanding, Sri Adi Shankaracharya propounded supreme consciousness as the driver for everything. And, that supreme consciousness can be realized by anyone through Knowledge. And, there is no specific creator who drives this universe but only that supreme consciousness. If that is the case, then what was the reason for writing devotional hymns dedicated to various Gods like Lord Shiva, Lord Narasimha, Lord Krishna and so on. If one can achieve Moksh only through knowledge(Gnana) then what was the purpose of establishing idols/statues of God/Goddess in the Peeths, and performing prayers to the God/Goddess.

Answering the part highlighted in green above.

Chanting devotional hymns / doing puja etc is a very important step towards gaining jnana. They may not be an end in themselves but they cannot be bypassed either. If you have read the Shaankara Bhashyas, you will find that Shankara paid utmost importance to the performance of agnihotra and other mandated kriyas. But the main point to be remembered is that such kriyas...puja/ bhajan/ agnihotra karmas are  a valuable step in the achieveing the final goal- which is - the supreme jnana, but not an end in themselves. 

 I feel it this way, idols are the representation of God. They give an image for the devotees to offer prayer and also a form for spiritual communication. An image of God gives inner strength to imagine in adverse times and also an idol is a blissful presence in the space we live.

This is from the materialistic point of view. A basic explanation. 

If a person can surrender herself with pure faith in front of an idol, it signifies his/ her deep belief and total absence of an egoistic attitude. Human beings should consider spirituality as a way to connect to one’s own inner self . Worshipping idol is just a small step in this process of spiritual realization. 

As Krishna discoursed in Bhagavad Gita,--"if the replica, a piece of God is with a human, whose mind and soul are in harmony, who are free from desire and wrath, who know their own soul"  

Idols are a symbolic representation of various characters and phenomena. For eg: Ganesha image represents several things. Each and every representation has many stories and ideologies to tell and they symbolically represent the meaning of what they stand for!!

 Idols are the embodiment of energy. They channelize positive energy and bring meaning and prosperity. Each and everything has energy. Sacred Idols radiate powerful positive energy.

We all very much aware of the fact that Sri Sankaracharya's Sri Chakra under the statue of Lord Venkateswara at Tirupati and at Siddivinayaka Temple , Mumbai by Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi, which attracts devotees as well as wealth at large numbers/quantities. 

For Hindu religious functioning, From the Indian Philosophical point of view, Vigraharadhana gained prominence for centuries.  

I am unable to cover all the points, ready to learn from the revered members here.

Thanks Viswasruti. Yes, you are right with regards to the underlying philosophy of Vigraharadhana and it helping an individual to focus on almighty and then realize self. So, these techniques might have been envisaged by our revered sages as self help tools and techniques. 

However, the point I was making was at the inconsistency in the points mentioned by Sri Adi Shankaracharya and the actual practices. I did not find any explicit statements in his explanation saying that all these idols/yantras and peeths should not be thought about to have some divine power and so on but merely places/items to focus on self. Also, he did not say anywhere that the hyms he composed on various Gods was to just help people realize self. Instead it seems those hymns were composed out of inspiration out of pure ecstasy and bliss and having seen divine visions or have had mystical experiences.

So, based on my limited reading of our holy texts, even though they seem to point out that Atma in one's self is the same parabrahma pervading everywhere in the universe. But, still those texts talk about mystical/divine experiences, so in my view, all these texts do acknowledge there exists a supreme creator, the one who gave Vedas and other sacred texts, and the one who was responsible for everything. So, taking that approach, Vigraharadhana is not merely helping one to focus on self and realize brahman but to directly pray to that supreme power. So, in a nutshell there exists a creator who has physical form and takes avatar whenever required. 

Please correct me if anything is incorrect.

Originally posted by: paartha

Thanks Viswasruti. Yes, you are right with regards to the underlying philosophy of Vigraharadhana and it helping an individual to focus on almighty and then realize self. So, these techniques might have been envisaged by our revered sages as self help tools and techniques. 

However, the point I was making was at the inconsistency in the points mentioned by Sri Adi Shankaracharya and the actual practices. I did not find any explicit statements in his explanation saying that all these idols/yantras and peeths should not be thought about to have some divine power and so on but merely places/items to focus on self. Also, he did not say anywhere that the hyms he composed on various Gods was to just help people realize self. Instead it seems those hymns were composed out of inspiration out of pure ecstasy and bliss and having seen divine visions or have had mystical experiences.

Well said Partha, with divine blessings those were his mystical experiences, expressed instantaneously, eg Kanakadhara Sthotra and Annapurnashtakam!  

So, based on my limited reading of our holy texts, even though they seem to point out that Atma in one's self is the same parabrahma pervading everywhere in the universe. But, still those texts talk about mystical/divine experiences, so in my view, all these texts do acknowledge there exists a supreme creator, the one who gave Vedas and other sacred texts, and the one who was responsible for everything. So, taking that approach, Vigraharadhana is not merely helping one to focus on self and realize brahman but to directly pray to that supreme power. So, in a nutshell there exists a creator who has physical form and takes avatar whenever required. 

Please correct me if anything is incorrect.

In Samaveda  and in Yajurveda--it was mentioned as ---  Na tasya pratima asti .... There is no Image of Him.

In the same way in BG too, it was the   same line  mentioned -Na Tasya Pratima Asti 

'Understand me from immaterial form { आ-तत्व} , do not bound me in this body form of Krishna, Vishnu, Ram, Shiva! 

This is so simple because Vedas are so direct, they are just a keyword to understand God and his creation.  

 Supreme Being is being identified as an exclusive Spiritual Being  and not as an expression of an Infinite Being in terms of the human mind. He is the Universal Spirit who has manifested as All-Nature. He is one with all, and if a person with faith wants to see Him anywhere, He is present there.  A holy image is thus a point at which His real presence is available for imperfect man to apprehend and commune with. It is not a mere means for practicing concentration as some preachers say. It is much more. It is a point of real communion with the Divine.  It is a ladder that enables him to climb to a higher position. It is very difficult to climb to a position without support. The image is only a means to achieve much needed Spiritual awareness I feel. 

See the following verse from the Gita: "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." [Bhagavad Gita 7:20] The Gita states that people who are materialistic, they will worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God. Human being needs a support to build his philosophical/ divine knowledge, the knowledge of Atma, the awareness of Paramatma, and the means to achieve the knowledge of Supreme Atma, Paramatma. 

I know my knowledge is very limited, but still daring to share my thoughts with you all. 😊 

Thank you Partha for making me think on this line for a while. ⭐️

Thank you Viswasruti for the explanation and sharing your point of view. Appreciate your time and effort on this. 🙏

Originally posted by: paartha

Thank you Viswasruti for the explanation and sharing your point of view. Appreciate your time and effort on this. 🙏

God's idols or images in temple are, " prana pratishthita". When a one visits the temple, gets pulled by the divine energy. He tries to communicate with idol in simple language or recites prayer, shloka, mantra etc, trying to connect with the power. Gets satisfaction of conveying his feelings to god. He may find means of getting his worries solved, reassuring his faith.

This is a small way of conditioning ones mind in getting connected with the supreme power. Over a period of time, his mind gets closely connected to the power, based on his faith. Fortunate ones may grow ahead on this path & try to understand god more by performing austerity, read upanishads, holy scriptures etc. That is gyana of the supreme power. Leading into realisation of God. 

Self realisation follows after this stage resulting in being one with the supreme consciousness. 

Here one has to unlearn previously learnt scriptures too. 

In books it may appear as simple stuff as aatma has to realise paramatma, or aatma is part of paramatma. 

In reality one has to live or actualise oneself or live in unison with the supreme consciousness as the supreme consciousness. 

Its a long process. At times going on from many births. What aadi shankaracharya explained is absolutely right. He explained only about initial steps leaving the worthy seekers to learn & live this path from an eminent guru.