B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 9

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

there is a contradiction varali this is what CE says


Karna replied,You have said it and that alone is enough. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! I only desire your friendship. And I desire to have a duel with Partha

why should there be desire of any friendship if there was already an existing long term friendship

not only that what dury says later ,who other's react ,how bhima reacts all point towards the fact that at that time no one knew who karna was and that is when dury and karna's friendship begins considering what both dury and karna say to each other and everything else

i am no expert in sanskrit so cant translate sanskrit sholka but in KMG and CE words like desire and long for your friendship have been used which indicate start of a friendship

You are reading only one half of the entire verse. The emphasis is not so much on 'desire' but on 'only'

I only desire your friendship.

Karna wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship. That's the meaning of this verse. In the previous  verse Durodhana offers himself and the Kuru rajyam to Karna as a token of appreciation.

Aham cha Kuru rajyam cha yatheshtumupabhujyataam

In reply to this generous offer from Dury, Karna replies that he wants nothing other than Dury;s friendship.

Edited by varaali - 9 years ago

Originally posted by: varaali

Thanks, Sabhyata.

The above lines highlighted in red show clearly that Karna was already friends with Duryodhana even during their gurukul days.

varali i already know about this citation and it has already been discussed

please see my earlier analysis

i havent disregarded this citation.

but yes it is in clear contradiction with what happens at rangbhoomi

which is why i have said earlier and will say again that karna and dury would have met during gurukul and there would have been some kind of altercation between arjuna and karna but neither of the associations were long enough to be termed as friendship or enmity.This will explain both adiparva citation and rangbhooomi citation

Originally posted by: varaali

You are reading only one half of the entire verse. The emphasis is not so much on 'desire' but on 'only'

I only desire your friendship.

Karna wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship. That's the meaning of this verse. In the previous  verse Durodhana offers himself and the Kuru rajyam to Karna as a token of appreciation.

Aham cha Kuru rajyam cha yatheshtumupabhujyataam

In reply to this generous offer from Dury, Karna replies that he wants nothing other than Dury;s friendship.

varali i am reading the entire thing that is why i am saying consider each and everything and all of them indicate towards one thing only

1)everyone wondering who karna is when he enters

2)after karan displays his skills dury tells him good fortune has brought you here.The claim that getting karna to rangbhoomi was preplanned is a pure conjecture there is no such meeting or plan indicated in epic so purely going by dury's words it means that its good luck he has come here to humble arjuna's pride

3)Then dury offers him the services of kuru empire to which karna says that all that he has said to him is more than enough and he only desires his friendship why couldn't he have said i already have your friendship its more than enough

4)the some altercation happens between arjuna and karna and kripa asks karan who he is after which dury installs him as a king and dury says i wish for your eternal friendship .again an indication there was no friendship before

5)Then adiratha comes and bhima deduces he is sut putra shouldn't bhima already know who he is if he was dury's friend since child hood

taking all this in consideration one can say that at that time no one knew who karna is
Edited by Sabhayata - 9 years ago

The citation from CE ans KMG clearly indicates that Duryodhana was not a friend of Karna during the Rangbhoomi fiasco, they might have met in gurukul terms but were not friends, meeting a person and being friends with them are two separate things.

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Karna and dury meeting once atleast during gurukul was never dismissed.If any one cared to read my full analysis...(a)  rather than going by  their preconceived notions...(b) they would have realized that😆

i dont believe in disregarding one citation for the sake of other's.I have always said keeping both citations in mind they might have met during gurukul but association wasn't long enough to be termed as friendship and hence the rangbhomi citation will also make sense.I hope my point is clear now

of course reactions at karna's reintroduction at rangbhoomi matters because TM here claimed that karna and dury were friends since childhood and more which isn't true or let me say is contradictory

karna and dury say alot more than eternal and none of their words indicate towards renewal or reaffirmation both indicate towards starting a friendship in both KMG and CE

regarding their converged interests definitely dury befriended karna  that time since he found a competitor for arjuna his intentions at that time weren't noble i agree with that as well

kishna ji's report card about karna in CE says the same thing as KMG...(c)

i know overreach means😆 but what does overuse of citation means.Citation can be used to prove a point or to refute it that is what TM has done in the thread as well.Overuse of citation makes no sense whatsoever😆...(d)

Edited by smrth - 9 years ago

@ Urmila, thanks for your clearing citations..

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

i think it was brahmashira only

brahmastra is refereed to as brahamstra in KMG but brahamshira is refereed to as brahma weapon

This is the citation from pashuram's curse

Since thou hast, from avarice of weapons, behaved here with falsehood, therefore, O wretch, this Brahma weapon shalt not dwell in thy remembrance

and the citation of when he actually forgets

Indeed, O foremost of men, when the hour of Karna's death came, the high brahmastra that the illustrious Bhargava had imparted unto him, escaped from his memory

Nowhere have they equated Brahmashira = high Brahmastra. Both were clearly  different weapons. 

Originally posted by: shindes

In Karn-Parv, Karna, invoking the Brahmastra, showered his shafts upon Dhananjaya. Partha also, by the aid of his Brahmastra, poured arrowy downpours upon Karna. Baffling with his own weapon the weapon of his foe, the son of Pandu continued to strike him.'

 

Poof, goes the Parshuram curse! It proves that the whole Parshuram-Brahmastra-curse is a fiasco.

 

 

@ShivangBuch

Then with the permission of Drona, the mighty Karna, delighting in battle, there did all that Partha had done before. And, O Bharata, Duryodhana with his brothers thereupon embraced Karna in joy and then addressed him saying, 'Welcome O mighty-armed warrior! I have obtained thee by good fortune, O polite one! Live thou as thou pleasest, and command me, and the kingdom of the Kurus.' Kama replied, 'When thou hast said it, I regard it as already accomplished. I only long for thy friendship. And, O lord, my wish is even for a single combat with Arjuna.' Duryodhana said, 'Do thou with me enjoy the good things of life! Be thou the benefactor of thy friend, and, O represser of enemies, place thou thy feet on the heads of all foes."

"Vaisampayanacontinued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone. What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'

 @ red: Obviously Arjuna knew who Karna was, since he is addressing Karna by his name.

The spectators were the one who were wondering who Karna was, since he had just gatecrashed.

The Kauravas and the Pandavas were introduced formally - but since this gatecrasher had not been introduced, everyone wondered who he was. No "hidden" here.

ANd Duryodhana regarding the arrival of Karna as "good fortune" , it is because Karna's arrival was most unexpected (and for Duryodhana, most opportune) here.

This was a tournament for the Kuru princes alone and none of the other pupils of Drona- the Avanti princes, the Panchala princes were called to participate. Karna dared to make his presence felt and Duryodhana felt it was his good luck that Karna came there and replicated Arjuna's feats.

Immediately after this DUryodhana offers himself and the Kuru rajyam to Karna for him to 'enjoy'? Why would he do that to an absolute stranger?

Saying that Karna was an 'acquaintance' not a 'friend' is just parleying with words. Karna was in the gurukul till the gurudakshina episode. Karna was part of the Kaurava team that went to capture Drupada, but failed.