Is Krishna an avatar of lord vishnu or vishnu is an avatar of krishna? - Page 2

@Thewatcher,

Originally posted by: mnx12

@rasyafan, Lord Shiv is Mahayogi, he has all the 16 Kalas & much more, that's why he is Vairagi as well as a Sanasarik. He can be in his Samadhi mode at the same time is aware of things going on around him. Even Aadi Shakti has same the state as Shivji. Infact she is the Kinetic Energy, so needs to have much more extra qualities then these 16 Kalas. 

Krishna was born with 16 Kalas, that's why he could do a lot, a normal Human can not even think of.

He is known as Yogeshwar because of these special Kalas. Which can be achieved by even a Human through Yoga.

Thanks Minakshi someone did tell me about those a long time back and she said that even shiv also do not posses but you are absolutely right Shiv is Mahadev and so is adi shakti Thanks for information

@rasyafan, all these pts are explained in books of Yoga. Infact Aadi Shakti has her 10 Mahavidyas, through them she takes various forms required according to the circumstances. So Shivji & Aadi Shakti have much more then these 16 Kalas.

Originally posted by: mnx12

@Thewatcher,

It's mentioned in Devi Bhagavat, about Krishna always living in Goloka with Radha.

Vishnuji lives in Vaikuntha with Lakshmiji. So at times their followers may believe differently then Krishna being an Avatar of Vishnuji. But that's their belief & sentiment. We should not get involved in that. Because ultimately realising the Supreme Consciousness is the ultimate aim of a soul. Whatever Deity one may choose but the final goal remains the same.

absolutely right Minakshi

@ The watcher Actually, I read it in Shiv Puran that at the begining when the creation has not even started the adi shakti or maha maya or parameshwari divided herself into two parts one female and one male female part is ishwari and male part is ishwar

In shiv puran they show when Shiv ji is teachign the knowledg eof this world to devi Parwati they become one they join and this form is known as Ardhnareshwar and if you see shakti is the supreme being and nature of shakti or energy is always female and no one can contain shakti only shakti needs a vessel to reside in and Shiv is the vessel where shakti resides Shakti is so important that without her even shiv is shav corpse and to carry out creations both are needed and are important.

Similarly, Vishnu is incomplete without Lakshmiji and Brahma is incomplete without Saraswati ji

I will give you one example I read in Bhagwat Puran that once Adi Shakti gave her darshan to the trinity gods Brahma Vishnu Mahesh

they all wanted to know the secrets of the unknown and this brahmaand, so on thier insistence she took them in her viman to the tour of space brahmand there she told them the secret that there is not just one brahmand but millions of brahmand are being created each second and being destroyed they saw that each brahmand have their own solar system and trinity gods Shiv Vishnu Brahman surya indra asur dev exactly the same as them and humans too and this kriya action is being carried out form a long time nobody knows I read some other facts too about it I have got bhagwad puran tomorrow I will search for it and mention here

I also read something about why energy is the supreme being from that days onwords I started believing that indeed adi shakti is supreme being and trinity gods are just part of her they all are same and after destruction of this universe everything is absorbed in her just as the creation is happening the destruction takes place exactly the same way but in reverse like we are reversing a movie in a video

I firmly believe that followers of a particular god thinks that their god is supreme being it is all right this is nature's way of making us loyal towards our faith and god So it's alright if you think differently from me .😊

Edited by rasyafan - 10 years ago

Originally posted by: mnx12

@rasyafan, all these pts are explained in books of Yoga. Infact Aadi Shakti has her 10 Mahavidyas, through them she takes various forms required according to the circumstances. So Shivji & Aadi Shakti have much more then these 16 Kalas.

Vishnuji, Brhmaji, Lakshmiji, Saraswatiji too have qualities beyond these 16 Kalas.

The explaination of Kalas is for our understanding of why some incarnations are special. They help us understand the reason of some unusual task performed by these incarnations.

Thanks Minakshi.

I found this :-

When Purushottam incarnates on Earth in his FULLEST form, He as 16 symbols of divinity on his feet, and He is called Purna Purushottam. Krishna Bhagwan had the 16 symbols, so He was Purna Purushottam. Ram Bhagwan, had only 12 symbols. So He was a partial incarnation of Purushottam, and He was called Maryada Purushottam, not Purna Purushottam This does not mean he was inferior. God incarnates to the extent of power that he needs. Since Krishna Bhagwan incarnated to kill Kansa and win the epic Mahabharat, Purushottam came as Purna Purushottam. Ram Bhagwan came on Earth just to kill Ravan, so not all of Purushottam's power was needed.

Kala as per tantra is the dawning of the consciousness from parabrhaman.Five Kalas like 1) Anna Maya (with cereals), 2) Pranamaya (with breath), 3) Mano Maya (with mind), 4) Vigyanamaya (with knowledge) and 5) Anandamaya (with joy) are present in every human being. With little effort, humans can perfect in three more kalas - 6) Atishayini, (With Peace) 7) Viparinabhimi (With Love) and 8) Sankramini. (With Creator) The other remaining eight Kalas are 9) Prabhvi. 10) Kunthini, 11) Vikasini, 12) Maryadini, 16) Sanhaladini, 14) Ahladini,1 5) Paripurna and 16) Swarupavasthit :

Anybody who has the ninth Kala besides the first five natural Kalas and next three perfected Kalas, becomes the god. As per scriptures, the ninth kalas Prabhvi means : KARTUM AKARTUM, that is able to do seemingly impossible tasks.

God Vishnu hides His 2 kalas before incarnate as Ram because Ravana cannot die in gods hands,this boon was given by God Shiva to Ravana so Ram hide his 2 kalas to kill Ravana.

if you see every Avatar of God Vishnu they are different because every Avatars of Vishnu has different purposes.

well personally i thing God Vishnu hides his immorality before his incarnation as Krishna because of boon he gave to Angada.

After the killing of Ravana while returning to Ayodhya Sri Ram thanked all the Vanaras for helping Him in the war and asked what their wishes are.

Angad, the son of Baali, asked Him that -might He be able to revenge the killer of his father .
Sri Ram smiled and told him that his wishes will be fulfilled in his next life.
Remember, the slayer of Baali was none other than Sri Ram Himself.

Thus, in His next incarnation Sri Ram became Sri Krishna and the hunter(Jara) who killed Sri Krishna was none other than Angad himself.

Five Kalas like 1) Anna Maya (with cereals), 2) Pranamaya (with breath), 3) Mano Maya (with mind), 4) Vigyanamaya (with knowledge) and 5) Anandamaya (with joy) are present in every human being. With little effort, humans can perfect in three more kalas - 6) Atishayini, 7) Viparinabhimi and 8) Sankramini. The other remaining eight Kalas are 9) Prabhvi. 10) Kunthini, 11) Vikasini, 12) Maryadini, 16) Sanhaladini, 14) Ahladini,1 5) Paripurna and 16) Swarupavasthit :

Sometimes Krishna is said to have 64 kalas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sixteen Kalas:

A) Set-1:

1) srih ----------------------------- Opulence
2) bhu ------------------- Land, Proporty
3) krtih -------------------------------- Fame
4) ila ------------------------ Communicator
5) lila ------------------- Pleasure, pastime
6) kantih ---------------- Radiance, Beauty
7) vidya ----------------------- Kknowledge
8) Vimala ---------------------Void of flaws
9) Utkarsini --------------------- Motivator
10) Jnana ---------------------------Wisdom
11) Kriya -----------------------------Action
12) Yoga ----------------------- Conjucator
13) Prahvi --------------------------Humility
14) Satya -------------------------------Truth
15) Isana --------------------------------Lord
16) Anugraha -----------Bestower of boon

Set-2:

An attempt is made to give meanings with the limited knowledge and these are subjected to correction.

1) Anna Maya (with cereals)
2) Pranamaya (with breath)
3) Mano Maya (with mind)
4) Vigyanamaya (with knowledge)
5) Anandamaya (with joy)
6) Atishayini (With Peace)
7) Viparinabhini (With Love)
8) Sankramini (With Creator)
9) Prabhavi (Kartum Akartum, that is able to do seemingly impossible tasks)
10) Kunthini
11) Vikasini ( vikAsin adj. great )
12) Maryadini (highly respected or with etiquette)
13) Sanhaladini ( saMhlAdin adj. cheering, a source of happiness)
14) Ahladini ( AhlAdin adj. causing joy or delight)
15) Paripurna (complete knowledge of all forms of awakening)
16) Swarupavasthitha (swarup + awasthith = established in his real true self)

1) Anna Maya (with cereals), 2) Pranamaya (with breath), 3) Mano
Maya (with mind), 4) Vigyanamaya (with knowledge) and 5) Anandamaya (with joy) are present in every human being.

I think I may have found your answer watcher 😃 here read this para and the bold

But Ram is not called Purna Avtar. Only Krishna Avtar is purna. Rama was 14 kala sampurna and krishna was 16 kala sampurna. Shri Ram had first 14 kalas but the last two were missing viz. Paripurna & Swarupavasthit ... here paripurna means complete knowledge of all forms of awakening and swarupavasthit - swarup + awasthit = established in his real true self.

Shri Rama before, incarnation had decided to hide two kalas...declaring him a God...because of boon to Ravan... in which he was promised that no god would kill him

So Rama intentionally hid his 2 kalas and behaved like a common man... to fulfil the boon that Ravan would be killed by a man. (this has a reply to questions like why Rama cried for his wife,... why he took help from monkeys...etc etc).

In simple words...

simple example is Moon and its sixteen kalas...the more kalas moon has the more it is shining... the moon is there but the ansh of light it is reflecting is its kala... so sixteen kala moon is full moon.

so a physical appearance of god reflecting the light ansha is his kalas... Shri Krishna was full moon..that way

Krishna was simultaneously awakened in Jiva consciousness...God consciousness... and Brahm(Turiya) consciouness... that is the beauty of Krishna avtar.

Hence I always refute the claim that Krishna was incarnation of vishnu... because vishnu is too small before krishna... who can give birth to millions of vishnu

Krishna Tattwa is unique.

!6 kalas are as follows:- That only krishna has:-

Krishna was complete and that could be witnessed from his activities-he was a philosopher, politician, diplomat, warrior, yogi, lover, renunciant etc. etc. It is impossible for one person to possess all these and that too in totality. Therefore, Krishna wasn't only the Supreme Person but while descending, he came with all his opulences. Rama didn't because his mission was to establish an ethical govt. and to teach people how to establish Dharma-rajya.

So it's not that Rama was inferior but his purpose was limited to one aspect of life, namely how a king should be a raja-rishi and establish his kingdom based on dharma. Krishna's mission was diverse, it was multi-faceted. He descended to teach practically everything under the sun, from politics and diplomacy to the highest flights of Vedanta and yoga. So people say krishna was purna-avatar not because he was superior to Ram (because they were both one and the same) but because his mission was integral and all-inclusive.

one aspect is that rama respected social duties

krsna transcendend even them showing that god is above everything

rAma is maryAdA purusottama incarnation.
he accepted limits as to what he can do in his lila.

krishna is pUrna purushottama incarnation.
he had no limits.

All other avtaars except shri Krishna were not poorna why ?

A poorna avataar is the one where the avatar is full conscious, simultaneously about his Jiva form, his God form and his Turiya (Brahm) form.

Rama was aware of his Jiva form and Turiya form but unaware of his God's form (that too for a purpose)

Shri Krishna is the only avataar who was fully conscious of all the three states of existence, simultaneously
Lord Krishna was a Purna-Avatara, with sixteen rays (kala) Lord Rama was an Avatara of fourteen rays (kala).

http://forum.yogananda.net/index.php?/topic/21770-krishna-vs-rama/

Edited by rasyafan - 10 years ago

I understood that Krishna was a full incarnation just like parvati , I knew these kala differences between Rama and Krishna.

Can you elaborate this line of yours?
"Hence I always refute the claim that Krishna was incarnation of vishnu... because vishnu is too small before krishna... who can give birth to millions of vishnu "

How is Vishnu smaller than Krishna ? Krishna can give birth to millions of Vishnu or Vishnu can give birth to thousands of Krishna?  

Vishnu is the supreme being who "FULLY" incarnated himself as a human named  Krishna . ( this is my one line answer to my question after researching a little bit about Krishna and Vishnu relation )  

if the above line is wrong or incorrect please correct me.
Edited by TheWatcher - 10 years ago

Originally posted by: rasyafan

I think I may have found your answer watcher 😃 here read this para and the bold

But Ram is not called Purna Avtar. Only Krishna Avtar is purna. Rama was 14 kala sampurna and krishna was 16 kala sampurna. Shri Ram had first 14 kalas but the last two were missing viz. Paripurna & Swarupavasthit ... here paripurna means complete knowledge of all forms of awakening and swarupavasthit - swarup + awasthit = established in his real true self.

Shri Rama before, incarnation had decided to hide two kalas...declaring him a God...because of boon to Ravan... in which he was promised that no god would kill him

So Rama intentionally hid his 2 kalas and behaved like a common man... to fulfil the boon that Ravan would be killed by a man. (this has a reply to questions like why Rama cried for his wife,... why he took help from monkeys...etc etc).

In simple words...

simple example is Moon and its sixteen kalas...the more kalas moon has the more it is shining... the moon is there but the ansh of light it is reflecting is its kala... so sixteen kala moon is full moon.

so a physical appearance of god reflecting the light ansha is his kalas... Shri Krishna was full moon..that way

Krishna was simultaneously awakened in Jiva consciousness...God consciousness... and Brahm(Turiya) consciouness... that is the beauty of Krishna avtar.

Hence I always refute the claim that Krishna was incarnation of vishnu... because vishnu is too small before krishna... who can give birth to millions of vishnu

Krishna Tattwa is unique.

!6 kalas are as follows:- That only krishna has:-

Krishna was complete and that could be witnessed from his activities-he was a philosopher, politician, diplomat, warrior, yogi, lover, renunciant etc. etc. It is impossible for one person to possess all these and that too in totality. Therefore, Krishna wasn't only the Supreme Person but while descending, he came with all his opulences. Rama didn't because his mission was to establish an ethical govt. and to teach people how to establish Dharma-rajya.

So it's not that Rama was inferior but his purpose was limited to one aspect of life, namely how a king should be a raja-rishi and establish his kingdom based on dharma. Krishna's mission was diverse, it was multi-faceted. He descended to teach practically everything under the sun, from politics and diplomacy to the highest flights of Vedanta and yoga. So people say krishna was purna-avatar not because he was superior to Ram (because they were both one and the same) but because his mission was integral and all-inclusive.

one aspect is that rama respected social duties

krsna transcendend even them showing that god is above everything

rAma is maryAdA purusottama incarnation.
he accepted limits as to what he can do in his lila.

krishna is pUrna purushottama incarnation.
he had no limits.

All other avtaars except shri Krishna were not poorna why ?

A poorna avataar is the one where the avatar is full conscious, simultaneously about his Jiva form, his God form and his Turiya (Brahm) form.

Rama was aware of his Jiva form and Turiya form but unaware of his God's form (that too for a purpose)

Shri Krishna is the only avataar who was fully conscious of all the three states of existence, simultaneously
Lord Krishna was a Purna-Avatara, with sixteen rays (kala) Lord Rama was an Avatara of fourteen rays (kala).

http://forum.yogananda.net/index.php?/topic/21770-krishna-vs-rama/

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

I dis-agree.

I disagree with u 😆