Mahabharata Related Discussions - Page 2

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: varaali


Blooper No 2- Returning from Gurukul? The time line has left me confused. The relative ages are well chartered out in the MB. Yudhishthira and Bhima  are older than Krishna.Arjuna probably the same age, younger by a few months and Nakula and Sahadeva a year or two younger. 

Now, K has married thrice, established a kingdom, and (had it been possible for the Sagars to show) on the verge of becoming father. Now all this while the Pandavas were in Gurukul? The usual age for leaving gurukul is 20 (initiation into Brahmacharya at 8 and 12 years of study thereafter.) 

After K killed Kamsa he was invested with the sacred thread and packed  off to Guru Sandipani's ashram where Balram and Krishna learnt everything superfast. Then came the episode of Krishna rescuing Punardutta and his subsequent battles with Jarasandha.

This would have been the time Pandavas also graduated from their Gurukul. Arjuna's victroy over Drupada would have been around the same time as Krishna's relocation to Dwaraka.

Hence this Kunti's letter is totally out of place. In fact the relative ages suggest that this would have been the time for the Lakshagraha incident to take place.



Precisely!!!  In fact, a lot of things happened b/w Krishna killing Kansa and his meeting the Pandavas.
  1. He attended his Gurukul - most likely @ the same time that the Kurus were under the tutelage of Kripacharya.  The superfast aspect is probably a Vyasa insertion - chances are he would have spent some years there w/ Balarama & Sudama
  2. He returns to Mathura and the wars w/ Jarasandha start. 17 such wars take place b4 he moves his population to Dwarka
  3. Rukmini's swayamvara
  4. Syamantaka gem incidents, which culminate in his marriages to Jambavati & Satyabhama
During the time that Krishna was busy fighting Jarasandha, the Kurus were under Dronacharya, and @ the end of it, had their war w/ Drupada in which Arjun presented him to Drona, as vaarali points out.  Rukmini's swayamvara would probably have co-incided w/ the tournament where Karna first surfaced.  Then, during the Syamantaka episodes, the Varnavarta Lakshagriha incident would have been plotted, and by the time Krishna married Satyabhama and set out for Hastinapur, the Pandavas & Kunti were already off.

Vaarali's & Vinu's observations about Krishna being younger than Yudhisthir & Bhima, and the same age as Arjun is correct.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: varaali

Actually I have long wondered about this. 

Was Arjuna really the greatest  warrior (in the MB War) as he is made out to be? He was good no doubt, probably better than anyone else, but does he deserve the adulation often given to him? Because-  

Shikkandin had to be brought in b/w to incapacitate Bhishma. The boon given by Shantanu protected Bhishma from death, not from get mortally wounded. Which is what happened when Arjuna attacked Bhishma,placing Shikhandin in front. If  Arjuna was really the greatest Archer as is made out to be, ,should have been able to achieve he same result even w/o Shikhandin. As such ,Arjuna could not overcome  Bhishma face to face.

While Arjuna easily defeated Karna at the time of Draupadi Swayamvar, the same could not be said during the War. On day 16, Karna ,had Arjuna at his mercy. It was just b'cos Karna felt that were he to shoot an arrow, it would not reach Arjuna before sunset, that Arjuna's life was spared. 

Even on day 17, Karna repeated cut Gandhiva's bowstring, which of course Arjuna was able to retie instantly. Point is- would Arjuna have been able to overcome Karna in a fair fight?

What happened to all the divya- astras that Arjuna collected on his trip to heaven? He used the Summohan Astra during the Matsya Yudh, but does not seem to have used any during the War itself (apart from the Brahmastra towards the very end).



Vaarali

I once was in an YouTube thread which had a similar discussion in the comments field of one of their videos.  The debate there was whether Arjun was a greater warrior than Karna.

The argument that Arjun couldn't have defeated them all doesn't sound credible - in Matsya, he defeated 7 of those leaders - Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwathama, Karna and Duryodhan.  On day 14 of the war, he alone wiped out 8 of the Kaurava akshauni's (out of 11) in his journey to hunt down Jayadrath (granted, Bhima & Satyaki also played their roles).

Having said all that, his oft repeated boast about wiping out the Kaurava army ignored that he couldn't be in more than one place @ a time.  That is why Drona had no problem massaceing all his allies on different days - Drupada, Virata, Vrihatkshatra (of Kekaya), Satrajit, Vikra, Sankha, Kuntibhoja, Purujit, Dhrishtaketu, Sahadev (of Magadha), and just about every major Pandava ally who died b4 him.  I often think that Krishna should have had all his sons fight on the Pandava side to improve the odds for the Pandavas, otherwise it was too much of a load on Bhima, Arjun & Satyaki.

On day 16, Arjun was not defeated and spared by Karna - this was downright defamation of him by BRC, and what I hated most about that serial.  They had a brief indecisive encounter, but much of that day, Arjun was fighting a vindictive Ashwatthama, while Karna was fighting (and defeated) Nakula.  Neither did Karna defeat Bhima on day 14 - while he did recall his promise to Kunti, Bhima too recalled that he can't kill Karna since Arjun had vowed to do that.  Oh, and while we are @ it, Dushashan was killed on day 17, not 16.  On day 17, Karna did cut his bowstings a few times, but Arjun reattached it and continued - it was one really a stalemate until Karna's wheel sunk.

As for the divyastras, Arjun used most of them.  Jayadratha was killed using the Pasupatastra, while Karna was slain using the Anjalika.  Arjuna also used the other astras he had, like the Brahmastra,  to massacre Krishna's Shamshaptakas, who were fighting for Duryodhan.

Dhrishtadyumna, for all his reputation, never defeated Drona, Kripa or Ashwatthama even once.  As for the cheating, all of them were predetermined by other sinful acts of their recipients - Bheeshma for destroying Amba's life, Drona for using divine weapons against ordinary soldiers, Karna for his 2 curses, and Duryodhan for both Markandeya's curse as well as Bhima's vow.  Another totally worthless warrior was Yudhisthir - Shalya was killed in an Abhimanyu like manner by Bhima, Nakula, Sahadev & Dhristadyumna all surrounding him and destroying his weapons. It wasn't a simple spear duel b/w Yudhisthir & Shalya either.
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Okay, new question from me - did Drona ever teach either Bhima or Duryodhan gada-yudh, as shown in today's episode, and repeated often?

Reason I ask - reading the Mahabharat chapter about Drona tutoring the Kurus, there is no mention there of his training them about gada-yudh.  The reference to Balarama having tutored both Bhima & Duryodhan is only implicitly mentioned in Shalya Parva, but in SB, it's mentioned that Balarama trained Duryodhan after Krishna killed Satadhandva, but nowhere there is it mentioned that he taught Bhima. 



This is what I found in the Sambhava Parva:

And within a short time Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, by his good behaviour, manners and close application to business, overshadowed the deeds of his father. And the second Pandava, Vrikodara, began to receive continued lessons from Sankarshana (Valarama) in encounters with the sword and the mace and on the chariot. And after Bhima's education was finished, he became in strength like unto Dyumatsena himself and continuing to live in harmony with his brothers, he began to exert his prowess. 

The above passage says "continued lessons" which means his initial lessons would have been from Drona


Edited by varaali - 12 years ago
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
One more thing - long back I read that Dhridrashtra married Gandhari and her 10 sisters. Any information on this? I thought it was one of the fake stories but has anyone read this before?
LeadNitrate thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

One more thing - long back I read that Dhridrashtra married Gandhari and her 10 sisters. Any information on this? I thought it was one of the fake stories but has anyone read this before?


i only remember, gandhari had vaidhavyayoga and so her parents and shakuni got her married to a  bird, i think  vulture, just before its death it came to know about it  because it was sad that it is not leaving any descendants for gandhari. so gandhari told him about the whole thing,and so he  cursed gandhari and her family that her children will bear a mark of  gandhari's first husband. duryodhan and his brothers were all app chicken legged. when duryodhan learned the reason he imprisoned  shakuni and his brothers and i think shakuni's father too. they were grossly mistreated in prison. they all died in prison and shakuni vowed to avenge them by destroying duryodhan . that is why when he was released he always gave duryodhan all sorts of  evil advice which eventually  led to duryodhan's downfall.

PS: how did shakuni die?
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Tannistha


i only remember, gandhari had vaidhavyayoga and so her parents and shakuni got her married to a  bird, i think  vulture, just before its death it came to know about it  because it was sad that it is not leaving any descendants for gandhari. so gandhari told him about the whole thing,and so he  cursed gandhari and her family that her children will bear a mark of  gandhari's first husband. duryodhan and his brothers were all app chicken legged. when duryodhan learned the reason he imprisoned  shakuni and his brothers and i think shakuni's father too. they were grossly mistreated in prison. they all died in prison and shakuni vowed to avenge them by destroying duryodhan . that is why when he was released he always gave duryodhan all sorts of  evil advice which eventually  led to duryodhan's downfall.

PS: how did shakuni die?



Shakuni was killed in battle by Nakul or Sahadev, I forgot who.

I too read that Shakuni was imprisoned along with his kin and friends. I also read somewhere that all of them used to give Shakuni their share of food so that he may survive. In the end Shakuni was the only one who survived. Shakuni's dice is supposedly made of the bones of his kind and friends who died for him and that's why it never fails him.

I don't know how true it is.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Vibs

I moved this question here, so that I could treat it separately from the other discussion about Vrishaketu & Meghavarman, which I'll comment on later.

The part about Gandhari having 10 sisters who also married Dhritarashtra is new to me.  The reason Bheeshma approached Subala for Gandhari's hand was that he had heard that she'd give birth to 100 sons (how was that an advantage for the Kurus, I didn't understand).  If he got Gandhari for Dhritarashtra under that understanding, I don't see why he'd have ruined the life of 10 more princesses, but then again, this is Bheeshma we're talking about.  Tan's story about Gandhari being previously married to a bird sounds fascinating, but fact is that all of Shakuni's brothers were alive w/ him, and while 5 of them were killed by Iravana in the war, some of them were killed during Arjun's Ashwamedha campaign in Gandhara.  

The other problematic part about this story is that if Shakuni wanted to destroy Duryodhan, he'd have
  1. Plotted w/ Gandhari, rather than w/ Duryodhan, on how to go about it.  Gandhari wouldn't have taken too kindly w/ her maayka being decimated by Duryodhan
  2. He and his brothers would have kept out of the Kurukshetra war, while egging the Kauravas on.  Also, he might then have opened channels of communication to Yudhisthir or Bhima on destroying the Kauravas.
Tan

Shakuni was killed by Sahadev on the 18th day of the war - in fact, he was the last warrior to be slain b4 Duryodhan:

'During the progress of that battle which was so destructive of men and steeds and elephants, Subala's son, Shakuni, O king, rushed against Sahadeva. The valiant Sahadeva, as Shakuni rushed quickly towards him, sped showers of swift arrows at that warrior as numerous as a flight of insects. At that time, Uluka also encountered Bhima and pierced him with ten arrows, Shakuni, meanwhile, O monarch, having pierced Bhima with three arrows, covered Sahadeva with ninety. Indeed, those heroes, O king, encountering one another in that battle, pierced one another with many keen arrows equipped with Kanka and peacock feathers, winged with gold, whetted on stone, and sped from bow-strings drawn to their ears. Those showers of arrows sped from their bows and arms, O monarch, shrouded all the points of the compass like a thick shower of rain poured from the clouds. Then Bhima, filled with rage, and Sahadeva of great valour, both endued with great might, careered in that battle, making an immense carnage. That army, O Bharata, was covered with hundreds of arrows by those two warriors. In consequence thereof, the welkin on many parts of the field became shrouded with darkness. In consequence, O monarch, of steeds, covered with arrows, dragging after them, as they ran, a large number of slain combatants, the tracks on many parts of the field became entirely blocked up. Covered with steeds slain with their riders, with broken shields and lances, O monarch, and with swords and darts and spears all around, the Earth looked variegated as if strewn with flowers. The combatants, O king, encountering one another, careered in battle, filled with wrath and taking one another's life. Soon the field became strewn with heads, beautiful as the filaments of the lotus, adorned with earrings and graced with faces set with eyes upturned in wrath and lips bit in rage. Covered also, O monarch, with the severed arms of warriors that resembled the trunks of huge elephants, that were adorned with Angadas and cased in leathern fences, and that still held swords and lances and battle-axes, and with headless bodies risen on their feet and bleeding and dancing on the field, and swarming with carnivorous creatures of diverse kinds, the Earth, O lord, presented a frightful aspect! After the Bharata army had been reduced to a small remnant, the Pandavas, filled with delight in that dreadful battle began to despatch the Kauravas to Yama's abode. Meanwhile, the heroic and valiant son of Subala's son very forcibly struck Sahadeva on the head with a lance. Exceedingly agitated, O monarch, in consequence of the blow, Sahadeva sat down on the terrace of his car. Beholding Sahadeva in that plight, the valiant Bhima, filled with rage, O Bharata, held the whole Kuru army in check. With his cloth-yard shaft he pierced hundreds and thousands of hostile warriors, and having pierced them so, that chastier of foes uttered a leonine roar. Frightened at that roar, all the followers of Shakuni, with their steeds and elephants, precipitately fled away in fear. Beholding them broken, king Duryodhana said unto them, "Stop, ye Kshatriyas, unacquainted with morality! Fight! What is the use of flight? That hero, who, without showing his back casteth away his life breath in battle, achieveth fame here and enjoyeth regions of bliss hereafter!" Thus exhorted by the king, the followers of Subala's son once more advanced against the Pandavas, making death their goal. Awful, O monarch, was the noise made by those rushing warriors, resembling that of the agitated ocean. At this, the field of battle became agitated all around. Beholding those followers of Subala's son thus advancing in battle, the victorious Pandavas, O monarch, proceeded against them. Comforted a little, the invincible Sahadeva, O monarch, pierced Shakuni with ten arrows and his steeds with three. With the greatest ease he then cut off the bow of Subala's son with a number of other arrows. Invincible in battle, Shakuni, however, took up another bow and pierced Nakula with sixty arrows and then Bhimasena with seven. Uluka also, O king, desirous of rescuing his sire in that engagement, pierced Bhima with seven arrows and Sahadeva with seventy. Bhimasena in that encounter pierced Uluka with many keen arrows and Shakuni with four and sixty, and each of the other warriors who fought around them, with three arrows. Struck by Bhimasena with shafts steeped in oil, the Kauravas, filled with rage in that battle, covered Sahadeva with showers of arrows like lightning-charged clouds pouring rain on a mountain-breast. The heroic and valiant Sahadeva then, O monarch, cut off, with a broad-headed arrow, the head of Uluka as the latter advanced against him. Slain by Sahadeva, Uluka, gladdening the Pandavas in that battle, fell down on the earth from his car, all his limbs bathed in blood. Beholding his son slain, Shakuni, O Bharata, with voice choked with tears and drawing deep breaths, recollected the words of Vidura. Having reflected for a moment with tearful eyes, Shakuni, breathing heavily, approached Sahadeva and pierced him with three arrows. Baffling those arrows sped by Subala's son with showers of shafts, the valiant Sahadeva, O monarch, cut off his antagonist's bow in that battle. Seeing his bow cut off, O king, Shakuni, the son of Subala, took up a formidable scimitar and hurled it at Sahadeva. The latter, however, with the greatest ease, O monarch, cut off in twain that terrible scimitar of Subala's son as it coursed towards him in that encounter. Beholding his sword cut in twain, Shakuni took up a formidable mace and hurled it at Sahadeva. That mace also, unable to achieve its object, fell down on the Earth. After this, Subala's son, filled with rage, hurled at the son of Pandu an awful dart that resembled an impending death night. With the greatest ease Sahadeva, in that encounter, cut off, with his gold-decked shafts, into three fragments, that dart as it coursed swiftly towards him. Cut off into fragments, that dart adorned with gold fell down on the earth like a blazing thunderbolt from the firmament, diverging into many flashes. Beholding that dart baffled and Subala's son afflicted with fear, all thy troops fled away in fright. Subala's son himself joined them. The Pandavas then, eager for victory, uttered loud shouts. As regards the Dhartarashtras, almost all of them turned away from the fight. Seeing them so cheerless, the valiant son of Madri, with many 1,000 shafts, checked them in that battle. Then Sahadeva came upon Subala's son as the latter, who was still expectant of victory, was flying away, protected by the excellent cavalry of the Gandharas. Recollecting, O king, that Shakuni, who had fallen to his share, was still alive, Sahadeva, on his car adorned with gold, pursued that warrior. Stringing his formidable bow and drawing it with great force, Sahadeva, filled with rage, pursued the son of Subala and vigorously struck him with many shafts equipped with vulturine feathers and whetted on stone, even like a person striking a mighty elephant with pointed lances. Endued with great energy of mind, Sahadeva, having afflicted his foe thus, addressed him, as if for calling back to mind (his past misdeeds), in these words, 'Adhering to the duties of a Kshatriya, fight (with me) and be a man! Thou hadst, O fool, rejoiced greatly in the midst of the assembly, while gambling with dice! Receive now, O thou of wicked understanding, the fruit of that act! All those wicked-souled ones that had ridiculed us then have perished! Only that wretch of his race, Duryodhana, is still alive, and thyself, his maternal uncle! Today I shall slay thee, striking off thy head with a razor-headed arrow like a person plucking a fruit from a tree with a stick!" Saying these words, O monarch, Sahadeva of great strength, that tiger among men, filled with rage, rushed impetuously against Shakuni. Approaching his enemy, the invincible Sahadeva, that foremost of warriors, forcibly drawing his bow and as if burning his foe with wrath, pierced Shakuni with ten arrows and his steeds with four. Then cutting off his umbrella and standard and bow, he roared like a lion. His standard and bow and umbrella thus cut off by Sahadeva, Subala's son was pierced with many arrows in all his vital limbs. Once again, O monarch, the valiant Sahadeva sped at Shakuni an irresistible shower of arrows. Filled with rage, the son of Subala then, single-handed, rushed with speed against Sahadeva in that encounter, desirous of slaying the latter with a lance adorned with gold. The son of Madri, however, with three broad-headed arrows, simultaneously cut off, without losing a moment, that uplifted lance as also the two well-rounded arms of his enemy at the van of battle, and then uttered a loud roar. Endued with great activity, the heroic Sahadeva then, with a broad-headed arrow, made of hard iron, equipped with wings of gold, capable of penetrating every armour, and sped with great force and care, cut off from his trunk his enemy's head. Deprived of his head by the son of Pandu with that gold-decked arrow of great sharpness and splendour like the sun's, Subala's son fell down on the earth in that battle. Indeed, the son of Pandu, filled with rage, struck off that head which was the root of the evil policy of the Kurus, with that impetuous shaft winged with gold and whetted on stone. Beholding Shakuni lying headless on the ground and all his limbs drenched with gore, thy warriors, rendered powerless with fear, fled away on all sides with weapons in their hands. At that time, thy sons, with cars, elephants, horse and foot entirely broken, heard the twang of Gandiva and fled away with colourless faces, afflicted with fear and deprived of their senses. Having thrown down Shakuni from his car, the Pandavas, O Bharata, became filled with delight. Rejoicing with Keshava among them, they blew their conchs in that battle, gladdening their troops. All of them, with glad hearts, worshipped Sahadeva, and said, "By good luck, O hero, Shakuni of wicked soul, that man of evil course, hath, with his son, been slain by thee!

LeadNitrate thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Vibs


I moved this question here, so that I could treat it separately from the other discussion about Vrishaketu & Meghavarman, which I'll comment on later.

The part about Gandhari having 10 sisters who also married Dhritarashtra is new to me.  The reason Bheeshma approached Subala for Gandhari's hand was that he had heard that she'd give birth to 100 sons (how was that an advantage for the Kurus, I didn't understand).  If he got Gandhari for Dhritarashtra under that understanding, I don't see why he'd have ruined the life of 10 more princesses, but then again, this is Bheeshma we're talking about.  Tan's story about Gandhari being previously married to a bird sounds fascinating, but fact is that all of Shakuni's brothers were alive w/ him, and while 5 of them were killed by Iravana in the war, some of them were killed during Arjun's Ashwamedha campaign in Gandhara.  

The other problematic part about this story is that if Shakuni wanted to destroy Duryodhan, he'd have
  1. Plotted w/ Gandhari, rather than w/ Duryodhan, on how to go about it.  Gandhari wouldn't have taken too kindly w/ her maayka being decimated by Duryodhan
  2. He and his brothers would have kept out of the Kurukshetra war, while egging the Kauravas on.  Also, he might then have opened channels of communication to Yudhisthir or Bhima on destroying the Kauravas.


Thanks  vrish, can u please tell me where i can get hold of detailed english translation of MB online maybe? 

I told you there are different versions of certain stories, may be some of them are tangent arcs which were developed by authors and poets later but this version have been around too, and vibs is right, i forgot to mention, duryodhan also allotted them food enough for bird. since shakuni was the smartest and strongest, he was fed and rest died  and his dice were indeed made of their bone. may be this arc was developed to explain why in a game of chance like that, where given all the calculations there is a chance of failure, however minute it is, shakuni's prediction always had probability 1.

Your second point about gandhari, well i think once she got married, she got completely associated with her sasural. these things happen in power families even now, also at times in normal families. Mostly when a woman got married, she started making her sasural her home, specially in royal situation and since this thing took quite long to happen, measn duryodhan was already slightly grown up, i guess she was completely absorbed in kuru family. Also she might not have known, remember gandhari didn't know of draupadi's vastra haran initially either. Anyways, things like that, where maika is fighting sasural and the bahu is supporting sasural is pretty common even now, and those days i guess it was more in vague.

However all these are with the premise that the version me and vrish are discussing actually happened and wasnt a later addition by some other poet.
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Posted: 12 years ago
one more blooper

the laxhagrah episode ; according to mahabharat pandava put the fire a day before duryodhan planed and purochand also died in this palace


in this serial they showed purochand and his people putting the fire

can any one comment on that
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Posted: 12 years ago
Lovely

You are correct.  I commented about it here.  What saved the Pandavas was them pre-empting Purochana by one day, and burning his house b4 burning everything else.