Priya Bhatija to play Rukmini in Dwarikadeesh - Page 3

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Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
@Lalitha - That's really strange. By that logic, even Krishna's parents and teachers should be his servants as they too are 'inferior' to him!!

Thanks Vrish. Can you tell me who cremated Krishna's body? All I know is Rukhmini, followed by his other wives became Sati on his pyre. In one book I read Arjun cremated him, in other I read the tribal hunter himself cremated Krishna๐Ÿ˜•

PS - I think I was right when I said Ram wasn't an Avatar in original version of Ramayan and perhaps same for Mahabharat. I cross checked the opinions of several eminent historians. The concept of Avatar was introduced around 800 yrs later in around 500-700 CE when Harivamsa and Bhagwad Puran was written.๐Ÿ˜ƒ


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 12 years ago
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

@Lalitha - That's really strange. By that logic, even Krishna's parents and teachers should be his servants as they too are 'inferior' to him!!

 
But Sesh Naag cannot be compared to his parents and teachers, he is beyond a human form and he eternally serves Vishnu. Both as Balram and Lakshman he served Vishnu's incarnations, while Krishna's parents and teachers were not the incarnations of Sesh Naag. Krishna always gave them due respect since as a human, it was his duty to respect and serve his parents and Guru. He even gave Balram the respect of an elder brother, but it was Balram himself who chose to serve Krishna even as a human (according to Vaishnav thinkers). So I do not find that at all strange.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Rehan
 
Krishna was never found.  According to the story, after Jara shot him in the foot, he was horrified @ what he had done and begged forgiveness, and Krishna forgave him.  It's said the devas came and took him to Vaikuntha.  Arjun never found his body, and did his shradh, along w/ the rest.
 
Isn't Sati technically the cremation of a widow on her husband's pyre?  If that was the case, none of Krishna's wives committed it, since Krishna's body was never found, and he was never cremated.  According to one account, before Arjun left Dwaraka, Vasudev & Ugrasena both took Agni-samadhi, as did all the wives.  So can one say that Vasudev & Ugrasena committed Sati?  But another account I read in the Bengali edition had all the wives leave w/ Arjun for Mathura/Indraprastha, and after arriving there, they followed certain options.  Rukmini, Jambavati and a few of the 8 chief queens did cremate themselves, Satyabhama and a couple of others went into permanent vanvas, while the 16,100 wives that Krishna had after killing Narakasura drowned themselves in the river Saraswati.  Essentially, the reason the wives ended their lives or went into vanvas was the same reason that the Pandavas abdicated after that and decided to go to swargalok - since the god was dead.  (The practice of Sati didn't begin until medeaval times - if you recall, even during Harshavardhan's time, his sister Rajyashri attempted suicide in the fire to avoid getting molested by her husband's enemy, but since Harsha found her in time and assured her that the enemy had been killed, Rajyashri went w/ him to Kanauj, where Harsha succeeded her husband as the ruler)
 
On Rama, while Valmiki doesn't usually attribute miracles to Rama, he is pretty clear about Rama being an avatar in 1:15.  Check the reference yourself.  Similarly, the stories of the first 6 (or 7, depending on how one counts them) avatars of Vishnu long preceded even the Dwapar Yuga.
 
P.S. Lalitha, I agree w/ Rehan.  Yeah, Rama & Krishna may have been Vishnu, but while they were human, they went by the protocols of the society.  So while Kaushalya may have worshipped Vishnu, she could never have worshipped Rama - that would have been preposterous.  Same w/ Krishna vs Vasudev, Devaki & Balaram.  He'd always respect them as elders, even if he was actually Vishnu, and unlike Rama, knew it!  So if the shastras gave precedence to the elders in terms of succession, Krishna too would have followed it.  Yeah, today, people worship Krishna but not Devaki.  But that doesn't mean that Devaki worshipped Krishna, or that Krishna even allowed it.  Vishnu touching Devaki's feet would have been sinful, but Krishna doing the same thing wouldn't.
 
However, after he killed Kamsa, he declined Ugrasena's offer of the throne, and returned it to him.  And Ugrasena never died until the fracticide @ Purvasa, so the question of precedence never arose.  And Vasudev & Balarama both passed on, as did Krishna, before any succession could be put together.
Edited by _Vrish_ - 12 years ago
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
^^ Vrish, if Sati was not a practice till later times, what would Madri cremating herself be considered? I thought that was the first instance of sati to ever be found in a purana, because Madri burned herself on Pandu's pyre after he died, didn't she?
 
Btw, the topic is deviating from the thread's purpose, so should we move this discussion to the doubts' and discussions thread?
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Thanks again for that clarification regarding Krishna's body. Actually, IMO, Sati need not mean burning on husband's pyre. Sati means attaining salvation for husband's honour. Sati, after whom the practice is named, didn't immolate on any one's pyre. So how can the tradition be so?

Oh no, I wasn't speaking about traditional belief of the Avatars as per 4 Yugas. I was speaking on technical terms. Obviously the Yugas themselves are fictional. Aryans came in India around 2200-1500 BCE and Vedas were scripted around 1600-700 BCE while the 2 Epics in their original form were written around 300 and 200 BCE respectively - ie around Maurya Age. The Yuga concept is technically invalid. The Yugas, Avatars, leelas all were added in Medival Puranic literatures. Prior to Puranic age, forget of Avatars, even these High Gods like Vishnu and Shiva etc were neither known, nor worshiped, in present form. Vishnu was a secondary deity, inferior to even Indra, and Shiva was possibly an evolution of Vedic Rudra.

These days all versions are badly morphed to suit the Puranic culture and Puranic concepts of Yugas and deities. I wish we could get a copy of the first version of the Epics.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Madri self immolated on Pandu's pyre b'cos she considered herself responsible for his death.  Pandu had been cursed by Rishi Kindama that if he tried to consummate his marriage, he'd die, and he died when trying to consumate his marriage to Madri. Madri therefore held herself responsible, and jumped into his pyre.
 
It wasn't a tradition - Satyavati didn't do it for Santanu, Ambika and Ambalika didn't do it for Vichitravirya, and later, the Kaurava wives didn't do it for them, and Dushala didn't do it for Jayadrath.  When Arjun crowned Vajra in Indraprastha, he left Subhadra as his regent.  So apparently, Subhadra didn't end her life even though Arjun went on to die some time later.
 
My original question was regarding the serial, and other points came up due to the issue of Ugrasena's succession.  However, if Lola wishes, she can move these posts to the Doubts & Discussions thread, and I'll continue it there.
 
Oh, and this serial starts on July 4th.  After that stupid RkR is over.
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

 
But Sesh Naag cannot be compared to his parents and teachers, he is beyond a human form and he eternally serves Vishnu. Both as Balram and Lakshman he served Vishnu's incarnations, while Krishna's parents and teachers were not the incarnations of Sesh Naag. Krishna always gave them due respect since as a human, it was his duty to respect and serve his parents and Guru. He even gave Balram the respect of an elder brother, but it was Balram himself who chose to serve Krishna even as a human (according to Vaishnav thinkers). So I do not find that at all strange.


What I find strange is, why did Shesh want to be his elder brother if he wanted to 'serve' him? I guess Shesh himself asked that boon - atleast this is what RS Krishna showed. BTW, RS Krishna also showed Krishna's Kulguru Rishi Garg seeking Krishna's blessings. ๐Ÿ˜ณ
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Rehan
 
Rama's existance has been dated @ ~5000BC, which is earlier than the dates you provided.  Of course, if one goes by the theory of the Aryans being native to India, it gets around that issue.
 
I thought Sati meant devotion to the ultimate well-being of a husband, and the pativrata term is tied w/ it.  As a result, women like Savitri, Sita et al are considered Satis, even though they didn't cremate themselves on their husband's deaths (they may not have even survived them).  Sati didn't immolate herself due to Shiva's death - she did so due to Shiva being insulted by her father.  Or maybe to repent for having disobeyed Shiva.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan


What I find strange is, why did Shesh want to be his elder brother if he wanted to 'serve' him? I guess Shesh himself asked that boon - atleast this is what RS Krishna showed. BTW, RS Krishna also showed Krishna's Kulguru Rishi Garg seeking Krishna's blessings. ๐Ÿ˜ณ

 
The scene that RS SK showed is straight from the Bhagwat Mahapuraan, it's not a Sagar invention like I originally thought. According to it, Sesh Naag wanted to be Krishna's elder brother so that if such a situation ever arose where Krishna might have to exile Rukmini or his other wives, Sesh Naag as an elder brother could order him not to do it...he could not do that as Lakshman since following Ram's orders was his duty. At the same time, he wanted to serve him as Sesh Naag serves Vishnu.
 
And Shrimad Bhagawat Mahapuraan not only has Garg Rishi seeking Krishna's blessings, but also Sandipani Rishi and others. In Bhagwat Puraan, the devotion and respect is mutual between teacher and student. Krishna respected and served his teachers as their disciple, while those rishis also sought Krishna's blessings because they recognized him as Shri Hari and knew it was their fortune that Vishnu himself had come to their ashram to seek education. It is similar to Ramcharitmanas, where we see many rishis postrating themselves before Ram despite being a lot older than him, because they recognized him as Vishnu and wished to seek his blessings.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: _Vrish_

Madri self immolated on Pandu's pyre b'cos she considered herself responsible for his death.  Pandu had been cursed by Rishi Kindama that if he tried to consummate his marriage, he'd die, and he died when trying to consumate his marriage to Madri. Madri therefore held herself responsible, and jumped into his pyre.

 
It wasn't a tradition - Satyavati didn't do it for Santanu, Ambika and Ambalika didn't do it for Vichitravirya, and later, the Kaurava wives didn't do it for them, and Dushala didn't do it for Jayadrath.  When Arjun crowned Vajra in Indraprastha, he left Subhadra as his regent.  So apparently, Subhadra didn't end her life even though Arjun went on to die some time later.
 
My original question was regarding the serial, and other points came up due to the issue of Ugrasena's succession.  However, if Lola wishes, she can move these posts to the Doubts & Discussions thread, and I'll continue it there.
 
Oh, and this serial starts on July 4th.  After that stupid RkR is over.

 
That's what I thought too...I once wrote an essay for one of my classes about Sati not being supported by our puranas, because none of the great women in any scripture performed sati if their husbands died before them. I wanted to make a point that Sati was something that came up pretty recently, as a form of violence against women, and the only hitch I found in my essay was Madri, because I could not explain away her self-immolation. So we can consider her death more of a suicide than Sati, right?
 
I guess we can just continue discussing here, since most of it is about Krishna anyway, but if Lola has a problem with it we can move it to the DaD thread.
 
What's RkR?