How Do We Identify A Raag When We Hear It - Page 3

H O W T O I D E N T I F Y R A G A S?

(Raga identification is really an art. It's difficult to precisely put down how one goes about doing it. What follows is only an attempt to indicate some of the standard approaches.)


is there an "algorithm" for identifying ragas? Yes, of course.(Otherwise, who can identify ragas?) Only that some steps of the algorithm are really tough and yes that should be algorithm"s". At least three of them! (and more by mixing these three algorithms.) let's take thm one by one. The toughest to the easiest...


1) This algorithm is a rigorous one. Yu listen to the music (in which yu want to identify the raga)& "swaramize" it, i.e. get the swaras corresponding to the music.During this process, yu'll see what swaras go up and down. In other words, you'll get to know the "aarohanam"(swaras going up the scale)and "avarohanam"(swaras down the scale). Simply match these with the definition of ragas, yu get the name. ( If yu remember the characteristic phrases of the raga, this step is easy.)


The crucial and a very difficult part here is the swaramizing(could nt get any word here 😊 ) stage. This needs (most of the time) a formal training in music or a rigorous practice in music. For some people, it may even take years! So.. for the uninitiated, pl don't try this. But without any doubt this is the only foolproof (albeit slow) method.


2) This algorithm needs a keyboard (or some other music instrument). Basically, yu follow Algorithm-1 but the swaramizing ( 😊 ) is somewhat simplified. Yu do not have to get the swaras by yurself, the keyboard will take care of it. Yu just have to find the notes that "resonate" with notes of the music.All the other steps are almost the same as Algorithm-1. So.. yu can get the notes corresponding to the music and hence the notes up and down the scale. Matching with raga definition, yu get the raga name.


There is a catch here. Yu could have noticed, i suddenly switched over to "Notes" instead of Swaras. Yes.. yu get only the notes, NOT the swaras. Wht i mean is, yu may not be able to get the correct swara placings, i.e. the basic sruti may be difficult to trace. (If there is a tambura/sruti-box with the music yu listen, no problem.) So.. if yu take the wrong sruti, yu will end up (only exception is Raga Gopriya)in the wrong swaras and consequently an incorrect raga name. There r many songs (especially film songs) on ragas Mohanam, Hindolam,etc(these ragas form a so called "grahadeda" group) that'll easily make yu do such mistakes. One more difficulty is, some of the ragas with "vakra" phrases may let you conclude wrongly, because yu have traced only the notes. For e.g., a Yaman Kalyan piece may let yu conclude as Yaman/Kalyani.


3) This is the simplest and the method usually suggested by many people. (it's useful in situations where yu have no access to a keyboard. e.g, How can yu take a keyboard to a concert?) The algorithm is based on identifying "similarities" between songs of the same raga. Yu ask your gurus to tell yu songs of the same raga and listen to thm carefully. Yu start noting similarities, then yu generalize thm(properly) and form a picture of the raga in your mind.(This may tak quite sometime for some ragas.) Then, whenever the raga is played, yu;ll naturally see some "patterns match" (depending on how many songs yu've heard in the raga
and how far yu've generalized it. of course, the raga difficulty also comes in.), then yu can associate a name for the raga yu know. I warn you, this conclusion always comes "with some probability". yu cannot be sure unless yu have listened to music for years or the raga is very simple.


There are 2 crucial things in this algorithm. (They are the secrets for the success!)

1. yu should listen to the "correct" music for each raga
2. yu should really listen to them. i.e. very very carefully, if possible

ask your gurus or someone who knows to tell yu, at which places the raga shows itself clearly.


The time to identify a raga using Algorithm-3 without any doubt depends on these two steps and yur "inclination" to grasp the raga.


This algorithm works most of the time for all standard ragas and is the easiest and quickest method of all. i have seen even big gurus use this method. Of course, they wont simply follow. Usually, they use this and confirm by using Algorithm-1. This hybrid algorithm, according to me, is the best way to identify ragas. The novices can still use Algorithm-3 and be happy with it. (Only for some very uncommon ragas, the algorithm will fail.) To stress it again, the most important thing here is you should keep listening, listening and listening. Otherwise, the "picture" goes out of yur mind or gets corrupted.


There is a further short cut to algorithm-3, if yu have the habit of listening to film songs. The film songs, for many ragas, give yu the picture very fast, because many of these yu have listened many many times or simply because they are catchy. Again a warning, yu should follow only the "right" film songs. Otherwise,they'll unnecessarily mislead yu. But, they are definitely short-cuts! (For some ragas, I still use film songs as references.) Still, according to me, yu cannot get the full picture of the raga unless yu listen to the purely classical versions. The latter is a must, no other way.


(i have seen people getting the "picture" easily, e.g. those who have been listening to classical music from childhood, but not being able to identify the raga name. Well.. for all purposes, these people have "identified" the raga. They have to only associate the name with picture of the raga they "see". This is easy to do after a bit of memorization. It's just like associating a name with a person's face you recognize!)


To conclude, raga identification is not really difficult! Anyone can identify, provided he/she listens regularly(and patiently) to good classical music. No theory, no books needed. Yu will need all the knwledge only if you want to appreciate and master the raga in depth.

Originally posted by: punjini

Hi Abhi, the very fact that you liked those songs in Criminal and Dil se shows that you do like raga-based music.

Now let me give you a simple task.

Listen to "bekaspe karam kijiye" in this link http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/17/s/movie_name.1293/

Then go to "darshan do ghanshyam" in this link
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/17/s/movie_name.1457/

Then go back and hear the 1st song again.

Tell me what you found. 😊

Ok now.... I had never heard this songs........ the songs are really nice...... From repeated hearings what I cd understand is as follows:

Song one from Mughale Azam by Naushadji

He has used melody (Swara) in the mukhada which is continuing till the end of the songs except for one line of each Antara The song is in the higherscale than the second one😕 (not sure) seems to be from middle octave or scale

The second song starts with somewhat similar melody of swaras as the first song.... Only half part of this melody is repeated in the antaras..... and the song is in lower octave or scale😕

This is what my ears could gather out of this beautiful songs

sorry , i don't understand hindi language , but would really like to know , what is Raga , Sur , Sangeet , Antara ,etc ?
Cos i religiously keep up with SRGMP Lil Champs.

Thank u so much for starting this topic Barnalidi 👏 Thanks a ton... I dont have words to express how useful it has been to me... Thank u so much once again 👏

Thanks Anol for that compilation of songs 😃
VJ - wonderful post... It will surely help untrained people like us to understand and identify the raagas easily 👏 👏 👏

Wow - this is great... I am going to learn a lot from this thread 👍🏼

I think 2 important comrades missing in this conversation.......Hope they will appear by next morning. 😉

FUNDAMENTALS OF RAG

by David Courtney, Ph.D.

Ragaputra Vardhan, (circa 1790)

The rag is the most important concept that any student of Indian music should understand. The Hindi/Urdu word "rag" is derived from the Sanskrit "raga" which means "colour, or passion" (Apte 1987). It is linked to the Sanskrit word "ranj" which means "to colour" (Apte 1987). Therefore rag may be thought of as an acoustic method of colouring the mind of the listener with an emotion. This is fine as a general concept but what is it musically? It is not a tune, melody, scale, mode, or any concept for which an English word exists. It is instead a combination of different characteristics. It is these characteristics which define the rag. Here are the characteristics.

There must be the notes of the rag. They are called the swar. This concept is similar to the Western solfege.

There must also be a modal structure. This is called that in North Indian music and mela in carnatic music.

There is also the jati. Jati is the number of notes used in the rag.

There must also be the ascending and descending structure. This is called arohana /avarohana.

Another characteristic is that the various notes do not have the same level of significance. Some are important and others less so. The important notes are called vadi and samavadi

There are often characteristic movements to the rag. This is called either pakad or swarup.

In addition to the main characteristics of rag, there are some other less important ones. For instance rags have traditionally been attributed to particular times of the day. They have also been anthropomorphize into families of male and female rags (raga, ragini, putra raga, etc.). There is a tendency to downgrade the importance of these aspects due to their irrational and unscientific nature.

RAG, RAGINI, PUTRA RAG, ETC.

by David Courtney, Ph.D.

Ragini Karnati (circa 1790)

The concept of "families" of rags is an interesting aspect of Indian music. Over the centuries rags have been ascribed to certain demigods. A natural consequence of such anthropomorphism is that there be a familial relationship between them. Therefore, in the past few centuries there arose a complicated system of rags (male rags), raginis (female rags), putra rags (sons of rags), etc. This was the basis for a system of classification before the advent of modern musicology.

Although this may have been a great inspiration to the painters of the old ragmala tradition, (see example above) it proved to be worthless as a means of musical taxonomy. The obvious problem was that there was no objective way to accommodate the new rags that were coming into existence. Today the that is the basis for the classification of rags.

SAMAY - THE TIMES OF INDIAN RAGS

by David Courtney, Ph.D.

Tradition ascribes certain rags to particular times of the day, seasons, or holidays; this is called samay. It is said that appropriate performance may bring harmony, while playing at different times may bring disharmony. It is said that the great Tansen was able to create rain by singing a monsoon rag.

There is not a universal agreement as to the correctness of samay. There are some musicians who argue that a rag must be performed at the time of day that it is assigned; conversely, other musicians argue that one may play a rag at any time if one wishes to evoke the mood of that time. For instance, if one simply wished to evoke the mood of a monsoon day, one could perform Megh Malhar; even in the middle of summer. The concept of samay is complicated by the fact that there are a number of rags that have different times ascribed by different musical traditions (gharanas).

This question is further complicated by an absence of any scientific process to determine samay. The great musicologist Bhatkhande attempted to develop a description of samay which could be explained in terms of the internal structure. Unfortunately, his system is so awkward and there are so many rags that do not fit his system that his efforts must be considered a complete failure. If one is disposed to follow the system of samay, one can only accept that it is merely a question of tradition. Attempts to justify the concept by looking at the internal structure of the rag have failed.

The concept is further weakened by the influx of rags from south Indian music. Many years ago Carnatic musicians and musicologists abandoned the concept of samay. It seems that it did not fit into their rational, scientific system. The result is that when Carnatic rags enter the Hindustani system, they come stripped of any conventionally accepted timings.

AROHANA AND AVAROHANA

by David Courtney, Ph.D.

Arohana and avarohana are the descriptions of how the rag moves. The arohana, also called aroh or arohi, is the pattern in which a rag ascends the scale. The avarohana, also called avaroh or avarohi, describes the way that the rag descends the scale. Both the arohana and avarohana may use certain characteristic twists and turns. Such prescribed twists are referred to as vakra. Such twisted movements are a reflection of the pakad. Furthermore, notes may have different levels of significance; notes may be strong or weak.