HUGE RDB and Rafi discussion on orkut

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413185

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Posted: 16 years ago

ALI:

Rafi & RDB

'Saatwan Sur' Rafi-saab had a phenomenal association with many music directors. One of these awesome associations was with Rahul Dev Burman. Because of other heavyweights like MM, S-J, Naushad, OPN, Ravi, SDB, Roshan, Chitragupta, L-P, K-A, Usha Khanna etc. the Rafi-RD combo tends to take a backseat.

From 1961-1980, this association produced excellent songs. The best of RDB will always have Rafi, and Rafi was integral to the success of this great composer. I haven't seen this combo talked about as much on this forum, so thought about starting a topic on them.

RD's interaction with Rafi goes back to the 50's and the days when he was assisting his father SDB. RD witnessed first hand those Rafi masterpiece creations that his father produced, and he carried forward his father's legacy when composing for the greatest singer to have ever lived.

RD-Rafi is full of variety, songs of various genres. RD's association with Kishore and Asha is great, but I personally believe his best came through Lata and Rafi. The songs he produced for these two were a class a part.

Let's discuss this great combo, looking forward to input from many members on this forum.

Let me start off by mentioning a ghazal, which I would put in the league of a MM or Roshan ghazal. RD referred to this song as his "prized composition" in a Vividh Bharti program. The gem is "Tumhein dekha hai maine" from Chandan Ka Palna (1967), Rafi sounds so very soft. A soulful song showing RD's classical skills at its best. The interlude music is a treat.

This is not to say RD's best did not come through Kishore & Asha, it definitely did (along with Lata & Rafi). However the songs he composed for Lata & Rafi were a class a part.

Another song is the sentimental gem from Chhote Nawab (1961)entitled "Ilahi tu sun le". This composition has shades of SDB in it, beautiful singing by Rafi. RD with this song and Lata's "Ghar aaja ghir" proved in his debut film that he could compose heavyweight stuff.

Harpreet:

@Ali bhai...why spoil the mood of all community members by taking name of RDB and then association it with rafi sahab...RDB was biggest conspirator against rafi sahab..
rest am not in mood to fight today..

ALI:

@Harpreet bhai

I know RDB may not be a favourite for choice Rafians, but I don't think he had any hatred or ill feelings towards Rafi-saab, and respected him a lot.

Kharoos:

Next thing I will see is "Rafi was Rajesh Roshan's first choice" or "Kishore Kumar was sang better songs for Madan Mohan" or "Mukesh was first choice for SD Burman" in different fan sites!!

Please, come out of this,,, It is not necessary to prove or falisifiedly prove all composers did their best for Rafisaab... When we have Naushad, Roshan, SJ, SDB, LP, MM etc. to discuss on Rafisaab, why to bring these false anecdotes to prove RD did best for Rafi?? I know, RD is very popular among youth of today and all the retro shows and remix albums and FM channels swear by his name, but, it is not at all necessary to prove that he did his best for Rafi,, Rafi sang 95 songs for RDB and Kishore sang 595( including Bengali and Hindi),,,, Why to even think that??

This was my personal observation, not to offend anyone,, But , I think this is unnecessary glorifying a combo, which never worked "in full fledge"..

Thank you!! And sorry, if I have hurt anyone!!

Harpreet:

Thats what I wanted to say that why discuss of the composer who was always against Rafi ......

Super "Returns".

Just to Add to Karoos.

"sang 95 songs for RDB and Kishore sang 595"

It is Quality versus Quantity here. As my old teacher used to say

"Son you can write an essay that is 30 pages and the other will write only 3 pages
but he he may end up with an A+ and you with a D - Why because it is QUALITY over quantity that matters."

Rafi Saab is A+ Quality in this case.

Kharoos:

Super "Returns"

Beg to disagree...

Even in quality, Kishore for RDB was better than Rafi-RDB.. You may not appreciate this fact as you seem to be a die-hard Rafisaab fan(which is great), but as a neutral observant, I feel RD did much better for Kishore, a fact which RD himself has acknowledged many a times.. So, this is not worth discussing!! Why to prove each and every music director did best for our beloved singer??Me, as a die-hard Hemant Kumar fan, never believe all the composers did his individual best with Hemantda, neither anyone should!! RD had his best for Kishore, is an industry acknowledged fact... Tomorrow, if someone comes and says, Naushad did better songs for Mukesh( Mela, Andaaz and Saathi all had great numbers, so, productivity of quality is 100% here also!!!!!), would you agree?? Logically, would you be satisfied??

RD-Rafi was a good combo, no doubt about it and their productivity is whoppingly high, that is also acknowledgable.. But to compare this combo with RD-Kishore is a bit exaggaration, just like comparing Rafi-Roshan with Manna-Roshan!!

This is again this little lady's thoughts, not intended to hurt anyone...

Thank you!!!

Nitish:

RDB was an average compsoer, worse human being and worst as a family man.
He opt for the voice of Rafi Saab in two cases:
1.for a weak composition:jab use maloom hota tha ki only rafi Saab could save such compostion and will made it a great song. just like "kya hua tera wada"
2.for a nice compostion(aur aise compostion bahut kum hai jise RDB ne compose kiya ho):jab use malum hota tha ki ise koi bhi aur singer behtar tarike se nahi ga sakta. just like "pal do pal ka saath humara"

Edited by Babumoshaai - 16 years ago

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413185

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Posted: 16 years ago

Vikram:

rafi sahab ki community mein rd burman ka naam lene ki manahi honi chahiye!! aise hazar rd burman bhi rafi sahab ke aage rakh diye jaye to phike hai!!

Ali:

@Kharoos

No one is making up false statements, just discussing a topic. I don't think RD-KK is better than RD-Rafi, but you may think so, which is perfectly fine. RD-KK have great songs together (no doubt), but I feel what he composed for Rafi was beyond the talents of KK. Ofcourse we are not proving that every composer did their best with Rafi (although most did with the exception of a few), but the work speaks for itself. To prefer something over another is subjective, and although RD-KK is a great combo, I feel RD-Rafi was better, and I have my reasons. For example, I don't find any quality qawwali's, ghazals, folk songs etc. in RD's KK works which I find in RD's Rafi works.

Btw, Rafi sang around 130 songs for RD (as per my research) and there are more unreleased songs as well which V. Nerurkar will bring out in his next book on RDB to be released at the end of the year. On July 31st, 1980, KK had around 330 songs for RDB, and we don't know how much more Rafi would have sang for RD had he not passed away. Besides stats, what matters is that RD-Rafi have many songs together of excellent quality.

I didn't know this topic would cause an uproar, I just wanted to find out opinions from others as to what compositions they like from this combo, as well as to discuss this combo.

Ali:

I don't think comparing RD-Rafi to RD-KK is an exaggeration, considering RD-Rafi have a high quality output. This is not the same as comparing Rafi-Roshan to Rafi-Manna and so forth, because in this case, Rafi sang many of RD's best songs.

Super "Returns"

.

Better Than Rafi !! That is Dagerous territory that you are entering my Friend.

This topic is on the edge of becoming "Better than" thread something that is against the rules as we are, in this community, of the thought that no one, no matter what combination

was, is or ever will be better than The Baadshah of Sangeet Rafi Saab.

No Neutrality on this side. I know where I stand!

Ali:

I hope this thread does not become a "better than" thread, that was not the purpose. Every combo/association has their strengths (and there are those who have their weaknesses as well), and in the case of Rafi-saab, all of his combo's/associations are legendary. This topic is to discuss the merits of RD-Rafi.

Let me just list some awesome creations from the 60's:

Wadiyan mera daman - Abhilasha
Zamane ne maare jawan kaise kaise - Baharon Ke Sapne
Kabhi kabhi aisa bhi to - Waris
Tumne mujhe dekha - Teesri Manzil
Meri jaan tu khafa - Teesra Kaun
Ni sultana re - Pyar Ka Mausam
Aaj hua mera dil matwala - Chhote Nawab
Zulfon ko aap yun - Chandan Ka Palna
Meri nazar mein sirf tum ho - Pyar Ka Mausam
Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera - Teesri Manzil

Any comments on the above songs ?

Harpreet:

@Ali bhai, chaahe kuchh bhi kaho...
no comments on RDB...the guy was always against rafi sahab..
one story i would like to share here is(I read it some where).. that the songs of aradhana were to be recorded in the voice of rafi sahab but SDB fell ill and RDB get them recorded in voice of kishore.

Himesh:

I once found a post on rdb where he said that "kishore could have latched on to aaja aaja in a trice" and "only I know what i had to do to et rafi to sing tumne mujhe dekha"

LATER i came across this topic on rafisaabs site where he said that "asha,kishore,lata,sab apne range hai, magar rafi saab ka range kamaal hai" - .. check in rafis site the topic - "a letter to raju bharatan" because he was the one who interviewed rdb and many thought it was fake.
also it seems that rdb used rafi maximum number of times after his success of kya hua tera wada, which makes me think this:

1.Rdb respected rafisaab and thoguth highly of him.
2.But rdb saw talent in kk and ALSO wanted to give him a chance.
3.Rafi went on the trip to haaj and rdb used kishore.
4. Kishore became the fesh new voice and PRODUCERS wanted him more actually.
5.After the success of kya hua tera wada, rdb got the opportunity to work extensively with rafi saab.

however... i could still be wrong.

Kharoos:

Himesh,

I think that Aradhana story is not true.. As mentioned in Derek Bose's "method in madness", it was explicitly mentioned that SD had a rigorous rehearsal session with Kishore for Aradhana and threatened him also, that this time if he does not get serious with his singing, he would be forced to replace him with Rafisaab..
Me, as well as many Rafi fans, feel that RDB was never inclined towards Rafisaab( Vikram would perhaps agree) or rather "casual" towards Rafisaab.. Even in his compositions, apart from Qawali, I never think he ventured anything special with Rafi which he did not with Kishore,, He had reportedly told in his Bandra Apartment (refered to by Raju Bharatan) that he "does not care for Rafi"... Naushad has composed 150 songs for Rafi, less than SJ or LP, but the combination is respected the most because of the personal rapport they used to share, but sorry, in case of Rafi-RDB- that rapport was missing!!
Lastly, please for god's sake, don't take it as a controversial statement, if Rafi-RDB is considered to be the best for their 100 songs( let us stick to released songs only), that means out of 595 songs of RDB-Kishore, at least 500 has to be dumped to dustbin,(considering all 100 of Rafi to be gems including those of "Shehzada", "Laakhon mein Ek" and "Sanjog"), so that, Rafi-RDB has a greater "good songs" ratio than Rafi-KK... Can you throw 500 songs of RDB-KK to dustbin???
When I don't see a good article on Rafi-Ravi, Rafi-Usha Khanna, Rafi-LP here in these community, the MDs who "genuinely" helped him at his time of need and contributed hugely to his career, why to bring RD Burman here dragging??

Kharoos:

Himesh,

Even after "Kya hua tera Waada"(1977), RD only "increased" his work with rafi. but far from "extensively" working.. Just see, RD's works after "Kya hua tera Waada"(1977):

Ghar(1978)- Kishore:2, Rafi:1 (Forget about comparing "Aap ki aankhon mein" with "Bottal se ek baat", as many Rafi fans might like the second one better than the first one also!!!!)
Devtaa(1978)- Kishore:2(Gulmohar gar tumhara- a great ghazal by Kishore), Rafi:1
Golmaal(1979)- Kishore:2(Aanewala pal included), Rafi-0
Kasme Waade(1978)- Kishore:3, Rafi:1
The Burning Train(1980): Kishore:2, Rafi:2
Manzil(1979): Kishore:2(Rimjhim gire sawan-a classic to me), Rafi:0
The Great Gambler(1978): Kishore:1, Rafi:1
Shaan(1980): Kishore:2, Rafi:3
Kaalia(1980): Kishore:3, Rafi:1
Harjaee(1980): Kishore:4( icluding "kabhi palkon pe aansoo"), Rafi:1
Zamane ko dikhana hai(1981): Kishore:0, Rafi:2
Azaad(1978): Kishore:3, Rafi:0
Abdullah(1980): Kishore:1, Rafi:1 (Maine poocha chand se was better than Ae khuda har faisla, definitely)
Takkar(1980): Kishore:3, Rafi:1 (But rafi's "makhan chor nand kishore" is a great bhajan)
Shaalimar(1979): Kishore:1, Rafi:1 ("Hum bewafa hargiz na the" if can't impress you, then there is a severe problem in listening)
Namkeen(1980): Kishore:2, Rafi:0

Where is the "extensivity" you find, dear??Still Kishore was singing the most from him, and I never saw any chance of downtrend even upto the movies of 1981!! Apart from "Zamane ko dikhana hai", he never ventured into a "no kishore, only rafi" project!! But "no rafi all kishore" had classics like "Golmaal", " Manzil" and "Namkeen"- great gulzarsaab works included!
And the movies, where he used Rafi-Kishore equally, there also, apart from "Shaan" and "Abdullah", all other had Kishore singing the "better" songs!!
But, still if you like "Bottal se ek baat" to "Phir wohi raat hai" or That forgotten Shammi Kapoor number in Shaalimaar to " Hum bewafa",or the forgotten Randhir Kapoor song to "Kabhi palkon pe aansoo hai" then no one can help!

Himesh:

kharoos - thanks for replying

Me, as well as many Rafi fans, feel that RDB was never inclined towards Rafisaab( Vikram would perhaps agree) or rather "casual" towards Rafisaab.. Even in his compositions, apart from Qawali, I never think he ventured anything special with Rafi which he did not with Kishore,, He had reportedly told in his Bandra Apartment (refered to by Raju Bharatan) that he "does not care for Rafi"... i read that too!

Lastly, please for god's sake, don't take it as a controversial statement, if Rafi-RDB is considered to be the best for their 100 songs( let us stick to released songs only), that means out of 595 songs of RDB-Kishore, at least 500 has to be dumped to dustbin,(considering all 100 of Rafi to be gems including those of "Shehzada", "Laakhon mein Ek" and "Sanjog"), so that, Rafi-RDB has a greater "good songs" ratio than Rafi-KK... Can you throw 500 songs of RDB-KK to dustbin???
When I don't see a good article on Rafi-Ravi, Rafi-Usha Khanna, Rafi-LP here in these community, the MDs who "genuinely" helped him at his time of need and contributed hugely to his career, why to bring RD Burman here dragging?? i never said RDB did it... infact it was laxmi pyare who did

Even after "Kya hua tera Waada"(1977), RD only "increased" his work with rafi. but far from "extensively" working.. Just see, RD's works after "Kya hua tera Waada"(1977):

Where is the "extensivity" you find, dear??thanks for telling me.. i never said it myself.. in the topic did rdb really prefer kk over rafi..it said so..hmm guess he didnt use rafi that much

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dunno

@Mindbender

Sparkler

Posted: 16 years ago

himesh reshammiya is also in there?😆

anyways, i did read some part, i'll read the whole later and tell what i feel about this

btw - babu ji,you are posting a big article ? don't blame any other member for doing this from now on😆

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413185

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Posted: 16 years ago

Kharoos:

Sorry to miss out!!

Sorry to miss out the following movies of RD from 1977-1980 in my previous posts, although, that will not make much of a difference:

Red Rose(1980)- Kishore:2, Rafi:0
Bulandi(1980)- Kishore:2, Rafi:1
Barsaat ki Ek Raat(1981): Kishore:3, Rafi:0

Harpreet:

"The 1970s saw the rise of Kishore Kumar, whose popularity increased due to the songs he sang for the film Aradhana (1969).[11][17] The music for Aradhana was composed by S. D. Burman, and he had used Rafi as the male playback voice for the first two recorded duets, "Baaghon Mein Bahaar Hai" and "Gunguna Rahen Hain Bhanwre".[8] After these two recordings, S. D. Burman fell ill and his son and assistant, R. D. Burman, took over the recordings. R. D. Burman got Kishore Kumar to sing the solos "Roop Tera Mastana" and "Mere Sapnon Ki Rani", which led to Kishore Kumar's popularity. Kishore Kumar's rise and R D Burman's patronage of him sidelined Rafi's career in the early 1970s"

Kharoos:

Harpreet

Aradhana story is not correct... Even I have asked one of my acquintances,who was very close to Junior Burman and and his assistants it was Kishore only who was considered for those three songs of Aradhana... He said:

When RD was directing Kishore in Padosan(1968), he came to know Kishore very personally and realized how demoralized and disheartened Kishore was from the industry and his personal life( Madhubala was bed-ridden for 6th year then)..Even Kishore told Pancham then that he was forty and his acting career had also taken a setback and singing career never really took off, it was high time he quit the industry and spend rest of his life in Khandwa... Then, Pancham, (perhaps very much moved by this), told him not to worry as his father had just got a musicial movie offer( the biggest after Guide) and he would request SD to do some songs for Kishore which would resurrect his career....

As far as the two duets of Rafi in Aradhana is concerned, I think SD had made up his mind very clear that they belonged to Rafi only... No two thoughts about it... SDB-Rafi were still at their creative best...

The fact that Aradhana not only resurrected Kishore's career, but also put him on the top- in history, still Kishore is the only singer to put serious challenge to Rafi's monopoly- is another story!

Kharoos:

Himesh,

Change your profile name, brother!!! It is irritating!!!! That in the greatest singer's site, we have to see and use the name of the ugliest of all:)))

Anyways, those who try to forcefully prove RD's "love"(?) towards Rafi or RD's "contribution"(??) towards Rafi, are only those who would one day try to prove Bappi Lahiri's contribution to Rafi or Rajesh Roshan's "best works" with Rafi!! Let us not give importance to those, rather, as a true music lover and rafisaab's admirers, concentrate on those music directors and pay homage from the bottom of our heart( Naushadsaab, Roshan, SJ, Ravi, OP Nayyar, LP etc.) who genuinely contributed to Rafi to ake him the best...

Finally, as my last words, I don't have anything against RD and he is one of my favourite composers!!at least, among the top 5 favourite composers of mine alongwith his father.. And I respect him for his "timelessness", as even today, mediocre movies like "Bachna Ae haseeno" becomes hit with the help of reviving his old numbers!! This "timelessness" or "ever green" factor of RDB has to be respected by all music lovers, irrespective of whose fan he is... But, RD cannot be put in the same league as that of Naushad or SD Burman. He was better than LP or KA but not Naushad or his father.. And since, both naushad and his father did their best with Rafi( Forget my stats of SDB-Rafi in 70s), why to unnecessarily prove that he did did his best for Rafi, which is nothing but exaggaration??

Kharoos:

Ali,

//Ofcourse we are not proving that every composer did their best with Rafi (although most did with the exception of a few),//

I will even to go the extent that not even "most", but "almost all" did their best with Rafi... But not RD, Rajesh Roshan, Salil Chowdhury or Anil Biswas... Spare them for Kishore, Mukesh/Manna and Talat!

Super "Returns":

.
Word of Caution on Wikepedia

This is someones intepreation and is subject to change. It is ok for general knowledge but it opions are not always acurate.

I think this Thread has reached its limits...

Aseer.......:

Kharoos

first sense-making kk fan u r.congrats.
liked ur posts.

@ Super

i dont think this thread has done anything to reach its limit,certainly only if u care for my opinion.

Aseer......:

first thing first,i havent visited ur profile but i guess ur second name is "nahi hoon main". thnx 4 arguing logically.

secondly, a few points. After 77, Rafi-RD combo was revived no doubt. Ur stats(stats are like bikini,it reveals something very indicative but hides the vital) also proved the point. What i feel is, this was working more in the comparative and not in absolute. If u take stats of Rafi-RD of mid 70 b4 77,i think u ll be satisfied.I know i have made a mess of my statement here but thats me n my english.

Thirdly,a lil addition to ur numbers.Rafi-RD is 122 released only, in count.compare it too kishore's 350 odd songs till 80. RD has to return to Rafi,a self-confessed low-priority singer for every 4th song. hmmm,weak composer indeed.altho timely,due to his westernisation i think,who has time to judge which saptak Rafi sahab was in while singing o duniya ke rakhwale,its a fast cheap entertainment seeking world today. no matter in late days,they prefer baba ramdev or osho or god knows whom else.

fourthly, no need to discard 500 songs of KK_RD. i think atleast 150 of those will pass the test of time.but then 80 out of Rafi sahab's 122 wud do the same. now add to this,the habit of RD of giving his best tunes to kk.OMG,Rafi can play on bouncy track and average more than KK.what the man was made of? I mean the angel.

a thought worth 25 paisa, I agree to nitish bhai with a slight twist. RD came to Rafi for
1.when he was new and needed to capture market(saaaaaad)
2. when none else cud justify his tune(my eyes twinkling)
3. when he needed to prove KK's supremacy over Rafi sahab(sigh,he cud never,Rafi gave him award for kya hua tera wada,ah such a poor song,mediocre composition,weak lyrics)....

hmm,long thoughts,hope it ll find 1-2 readers.

Himesh:

@ aseer

i liked chand mera dil,hum kisi se kum nahin,yeh ladka hai allah much more... i liked rafi saabs songs because of rafi saab mainly and not just the tune...

Ali:

Hi Kharoos,

I also think what Raju Bharatan says is not true about Aradhana. SDB did rehearse those three songs with Aradhana, and I think Rafi recorded "Baagon mein bahar hai" after the Kishore songs (info courtesy a person I know who had the dates of recordings). It may have been that "Gunguna rahe hain" could have been recorded prior to the Kishore songs as well. But two things come out of this:

1) Rafi was away on his Haj trip, and SDB decided to have the songs recorded in Kishore's voice, aided by RDB.
2) Kishore was SDB's first choice for the songs, but he also had Rafi in mind for other songs.

According to Manohari Singh, both the Rafi songs were composed by RDB. If you listen to them, you can notice that they contain an RD flavour, even along with being SD-ish.

I think RDB was inclined towards Rafi, but its just that he also liked Kishore. I don't think Kishore has any worthwhile qawwali's, folk songs or ghazals in his repertoire with RDB that Rafi has. There are even choice compositions such as the waltz from Benaam "Aa raat jaati hai", or songs with amazing melody like "Tumne mujhe dekha" which Rafi has and KK does not vis a vis RDB. Rafi brought melody and charm to RD's compositions, which was more than what KK brought (IMHO). It was just an opinion, that I mentioned I feel RD's best came through Rafi and Lata, and at the same time I also mentioned his best came through KK and Asha as well, but more of the former two. If you take the RD-KK combo, you will find a good number of their compositions are straight and patterned to suit KK's range and singing style. This is exactly what RDB banked on for KK from 1970-75 (tailor-made compositions). Those account for roughly half or more than half of their 500+ output. The rest is made up of average songs (and trash), and those jewels like a "Rimjhim gire saawan", "Aanewala pal", "Phir wohi raat hai", "Pyar diwana hota hai". Trust me, RD-KK have their fair share of trash songs.

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333887

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Posted: 16 years ago

oh my gosh!!!! what's this!!! who's gonna read such a long converstaion😲....or let's say.....nonversation......😛

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413185

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Posted: 16 years ago

Ali:

One could divide up the numbers in different ways, depending on their opinion, but the truth is, the quality to quantity ratio of RD-KK is not very high as opposed to other combo's (in general), and with RD. I feel the ratio is much better with Lata and Rafi as opposed to Asha and KK. Ofcourse KK and Asha sang more for RD as opposed to Lata and Rafi, however even if the numbers had been a bit lesser, I still feel Lata and Rafi would have had better quality (and a better ratio) than KK and Asha in RD land. What amazing songs Lata and Rafi (and KK & Asha) sang for RD.

No one is dragging RDB here, this topic was started to find out opinions of their association. I just joined this forum, and I thought this would be a good topic of discussion. Regardless of what anyone feels about this combo or about RDB, I would never ignore this association, as I feel it was great and unique. Why can't we discuss any Rafi association, is there some unwritten rule about discussing only certain associations ?.

RD never said he did not care for Rafi, don't believe everything Raju Bharatan says, he's an attention seeker. I think RD did not have anything against Rafi, he respected and rated him highly, its just that he also wanted to help out his friend Kishore, and RD definitely needed Rafi, he could not do without him, and his songs are proof of that.

Ali:

Yes, RD did increase his work with Rafi post HKKN, although KK still led in terms of overall output (from 1977-1980), Rafi's presence with RD was very much felt, and the impact was HUGE (as always with RD-Rafi). But that Kishore sang better songs in the films where they both sang (equally or not) is debatable and subjective. Also some films are missing from your list (I will mention a few):

Mukti (1977): Kishore: 1, Rafi: 2 - Both parts of "Pyar hai ik nishan qadmon ka" is better than all of KK's RD's solo's in the late 70's IMO.)
Fandebaaz (1978): Kishore: 1, Rafi: 3 - An all Rafi show, "Mohabbat mein aji kya" makes "Aap ki aankhon mein" look average, and "Duniya mein paise bina" is alos great. The Rafi-Amit duet is not bad.
Naya Daur (1978) Kishore: 2, Rafi: 1 - I think "Chalo kahin aur chalte hain", and "Mujhe doston tum gale se laga lo" are on even terms. The other KK song is average.
Nauker (1979) Kishore: 2, Rafi: 1 - "Dekhi hazaron mehfil" and "Chandni re jhoom" would be on even terms, the other KK song is again average.
Salaam Memsaab (1979): Kishore: 3, Rafi: 1 - One Kishore song is average, two are not bad, the Rafi-Bhupinder duet is a gem.
Ratnadeep (1979): Kishore: 1, Rafi: 0 - "Kabhi kabhi sapna" is nice but KK struggles with the melody.
Btw, Namkeen was a 1982 release, I don't think RD had a chance to use Rafi then as Rafi had passed away by then.

Also one has to extrapolate from trends, and the trend was that RD was recording more and more with Rafi, and if Rafi had not passed away in 1980, I am sure that trend would have continued in a big way.

Ali

Also, if KK had a Manzil, Golmaal or Ghar etc., Rafi had a ZKDH, Shaan and Abdullah etc. Even if there are a few Rafi only films as opposed to Kishore only films in this phase, it doesn't matter, Rafi had a huge impact with RD in this time overall. In films where they both sang together like Abdullah, The Burning Train, Bulandi etc. Rafi had better songs, and they were on even terms in Kudrat, The Great Gambler, Jail Yatra, Aan Aur Shaan etc. One can point out various other examples of the above with different films.

About Namkeen (and other films released after Rafi's death), unless the songs were recorded when Rafi was alive (which I doubt) then RD did not use KK, but I don't think that's the case, and I think the songs were recorded after Rafi had passed away. Those films of 1981 and onwards with Rafi songs were ofcourse recorded before Rafi passed away. Again, I go back to trends, RD-Rafi in the 80's was excellent (whatever ouput they have together) and would have been great (as usual) had Rafi lived. For Gulzar films, RD hardly used Rafi (except for choice occasions, and that could have changed in the 80's had Rafi lived), but that doesn't matter, I don't find anything special in his Gulzar output that it was a miss, most Gulzar-RD works are repetitive, and is not in the same league as his work with Majrooh or Anand Bakshi and others (where we see a high Rafi presence). Not to say those Gulzar-RD works were not good, they definitely were, but I don't find them as good as Majrooh, AB etc. works with RD (except for a few albums which could match the albums by those lyricists and others who worked with RD) as well as see any miss for Rafi in general (except for Aandhi, Khushboo and Kinara) where I feel Rafi would have done much more justice. Also Mehbooba was a big miss, I don't know what RD was thinking giving "Mere naina sawan bhadon" to KK. This is ofcourse Non-Gulzar.

Ali

"I will even to go the extent that not even "most", but "almost all" did their best with Rafi... But not RD, Rajesh Roshan, Salil Chowdhury or Anil Biswas... Spare them for Kishore, Mukesh/Manna and Talat!"

--------------------------------------

Kharoos,

I agree, "almost all" did their best with Rafi, and I would definitely include RD in that list :). One simply cannot ignore a Teesri Manzil, Caravan, Pyar Ka Mausam, Waris, Chandan Ka Palna, Hum Kisise Kum Nahin, The Train, Abdullah, Yaadon Ki Baarat, Shaan and much more, which all rank among the best of RD.

As for Salil, Anil Biswas etc. indeed they did their best work with others such as Talat, Mukesh, Manna etc. (as you mentioned). Even then Rafi has sung classics for Salil and for Hemant (who mostly chose himself for male playback and Lata), CR (again himself and Lata). The less said about Anil Biswas the better :P.

For Rajesh Roshan, Rafi has his fair share of classics for him too, and there are a good number of goodies from the RR-Rafi combo, that I would put them on even terms. "Mujhe choo rahi hai", "Tumse nahin pehchan", "Naarazgi yeh aap ki", "Dil ki kali", "Bahon mein teri masti", "Chal kahin door nikal", "Tumko khush dekh kar" and more all rank amongst the best of RR along with KK's songs for him. But KK got better solo's in general (although a few Rafi ones are as good as any KK solo for RR) whereas duets its on even terms with Rafi getting choice better ones.

Kharoos

Ali bhai

1977 movies, I had strategically kept out and only considered 1978 onwards, as, the impact of Kya Hua Tera Waada can be felt after 1977 only..

You consider RD-Rafi to be the best, no issues!!! All have their own opinion, but you put up your points in nice manner, so, I appreciate your views...

Regarding, you said RD constrained his compostitions, and "tailor made" things for Kishore, is also not well appreciated by me, but anyhow, this is not a KK community, so, discussing this will not make any sense... but if we meet on any other forum on any other day( apart from this, I have only joined Hemant kumar community- my most favourite singer, and KK's big communities of 1.3 lac embers, I have kept myself away, as they discuss only Antaksharis there,KK is much more than that-these young babes won;t understand), we will talk in detail with examples!!

Thanks a lot!!!!

Lovely topic, but!! I don't know what moderators feel, but i think all members contributed nicely here and not blindly supported what is put up!! That is a very good spirit, keep it up folks!!! Beautiful, I am impressed!!

Kharoos

Aseer...........

You are spot on!!! When you said, RD came to Rafi in 60s to establish himself in the industry!!! That is a naked truth, even die-hard RD fans fail to accept! Even considering only 60s, I would say, RD-Rafi was the best combo and RD-Kishore not even on top three(yes, Padosan is considered)...

Kya hua tera waada's credit should wholeheartedly go to Naseer Hussain saab,(and not RD) who unlike Shakti Samanta or Dev Anand, did not forget Rafisaab's contribution to his films in the 60s, and was always loyal to him even on the supreme days of Kishore... Alas, there were very few others like him in 70s for Rafisaab!!

Again, RD was a great composer, and I personally cannot hold back my tears after listening to his "Amar Prem" scores!! What compositions, friends!! Just forget for a few seconds about Rafisaab, and listen that soulful folk "Doli mein bithaai ke" and the beautiful bhajan "Bada natkhat hai re", that semi-classical on Raag Khambaaj" Kuchh to log kahenge", the Raag Yaman Kalyan gem " Raina Beeti Jaaye" , the soft and touchy "Yeh kya hua" and my most favourite "Chingaari koi bhadke"( legends say, Papa Burman rushed to Kishore's house to embrace him after listening this song and Pancham himself burst out in tears after the recording).... But I really think, he was a "gyan-paapi", as, this same man afterwards gave mediocre music in films like "Mazaaq", "Sholay", "Deewar", "Azaad" etc.

Kharoos

Lastly, Ali bhai

Gulzar-RD was a combo smelt like a fresh air to me in the odoured cacophony of 70s ..Gulzar used to bring RD to the melodious gambit everytime Pancham used to get carried away with orchestration and westernized tunes.. If you don't find RD-Gulzar songs to be "special"( if it is only because Rafisaab's contribution is almost nil), then what can I say?? I can only assume you will not find the following songs "special" also:

1. Beeti na beetayi raina

2. Is mod se jaate hai

3. Tere bina zindagi se

4. Phir wohi raat hai

5. Naam gum jayega

6. Jaane kya sochkar nahi guzra(Talking about RD-Kishore in Ghazal)

7. Aap ki aankhon mein kuchh

8. Khaali haath shaam aayi

9. Tujhse naaraaz nahi(Ok, lets forget this, as it is of 1982)

10. Musafir hoon yaaron

11. O majhi re apna kinara(Talking about RD-Kishore in Folk, based on bhatiyali)

12. Bechara dil kya kare

13. Din jaa rahe hai ke raaton ke saaye

Beg to disagree, again!! I admit, music is a subjective topic, I personall, admire RD more because of his quality association with Gulzarsaab,,, Even the 70s music retained melody thanks to these intermittent poetic reminders of gulzar amongst cacophony!!

deviprasad

I believe it is important to look at the following two points in this debate. I don't know why it escaped others' attention.

1. In Aradhana, Rafi was used for Khanna the son, while KK sang for the senior. It must have been the MD's intention to use two distinct voices to help create two different personalities. KK's voice, being heavier, was thought to be more suitable for the older personage. This is not such an uncommon practice in Bollywood cinema. Remember Pyar Ka Mausam? Bharat Bhushan and Shashi Kapoor, father and son in the movie, sang the same song Tum Bin. There too Rafi sang for the younger personage.

It also says something about Rafi's voice. Though he was older than KK, his voice sounded much younger.

But KK's songs became the rage post-Aradhana, the rest is history.

2. In talking about RD-Rafi combo, we have to take into account the substantial corpus consisting of songs from Nasir Hussain produced movies. Though there is no direct evidence, circumstantial clues point to an unwritten understanding between the producer and the MD that Rafi would be the principal male singer in all Nasir Hussain films. So RD hardly had an option there. If we take out that corpus from the combo, how much is left?

I personally feel that it was probably more a question of personal rapport. RD was more comfortable with KK, who too looked upon the Burmans as his mentor. Both being Bengalis also helped! ( I am a Bengali too, by the way!)

Similarly, since LP's personal equation with Rafi was much better, They kept on using Rafi extensively even during KK's heyday!

Kharoos

deviprasad

Nice views!!

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Aseer...........

no dirty mud slinging yet, clap clap clap.

Deviprasad bhai, me a bengali too.

if u take away shakti samanta and perhaps navketan from RD-KK much isnt left either. Going by counts, Rafi sang 1158 songs in 70s compared to 1208 songs of kk n u call it hayday????

Gulzar has STOPPED appealing me now that i m grown up. He is only good for lonely summer afternoons. I feel so.some "bahki bahki baatein" all he cud produce. always trying to surprise the listener or trying to pack a punch. not good. He tries to present things in new bottle while lyricists like Sahir sahab always told us stories unheard. And as surprise is for first time only, Gulzar sahab had his effect on me which wasnt long lasting. Sadhna song from Sahir sahab, aaj is darja pila do ke na kuchh yaad rahe, hmm wudnt i give my eye to write once like him.

By giving mere naina sawan bhado,RD tried to prove KK can sing semi classical also.It was a campaign from him to promote KK. but if we look at the outcome,none other prefferred to do that ,it means RD cudt impress his counterparts. they kept going back to Maestro for difficult songs among others.

RD cudnt dare the producers like MM did it Laila Majnu "These tunes are meant for Rafi.if u want another singer,count me out".and MM was never true rafi loyalist.

It proves the presence n effect of Rafi beyond doubt,doesnt it?

Kharoos

Aseer bhai

1. Well, if you don't at all like Gulzar, then I really can't say anything:))..

2. Although not a great fan of KK, I think it was not only RDB who tried him out in classical songs or after "Mehbooba" nobody tried Kishore for semi-claasical. I remember "Prem ka rog laga yeh mujhko" from Do Premee(1980),music by Laxmikant Pyarela, a very good Bhajan based on semi-classical raaga, and I think KK sang well, at least technically.. Also, prior to "Mere naina", he had sung "Payalwaali dekhna" in 1963, which was also "technically" well done.. However, I never ever would say that in classical he was in the same league of Manna or Rafi, but he did "considerably" good job.. "Mere Naina" probably did not stick to textbook rendition of Shivranjani, but his rendition touches heart.. And since you are bengali, you must have heard "Amar dep nebano raat" or "Amar monor ei mour mahal"( I hope I spelt correct)

3. Rafisaab's renditions in classical, devotional and qawalli can never be touched by anybody else... He was simply supreme!! People do debate for Manna, but generally speaking, I admire the way Rafi had "popularized" semi-classical number.. You really can't make out after listening " Raha gardishon mein hardum", how much effort it takes to render the song with all notes properly hitting right! Hats off to him!

Kharoos

Aseer

As you yourself said, statistics are like bikinis, they hide less and reveal more!

But, as far as info available on official websites of both the legends, viz, www.mohdrafi.com and www.yoodleeyoo.com, I found in Hindi songs, Rafi's count was 549 in 70s( I calculated that around a month back, year after year) and Kishore's 1050 in 70s...

I might be wrong,well, but as I said, the stats are given there only...(Only for Hindi songs, again)

Harpreet

@Ali bhai,

I would say Hats off to you, that due to your efforts this rafi-RDB combo topic has stretched so far in this community, I remembered some time back also some body tried to discuss about rafi-RD combo and that topic was out after very few posts as rafi fans in the community dint want to discuss RD at all, due to reasons as told by me in the very beginning(he being jealous, conspirator..etc etc)...

but sue to ur persistence, perserverance this topic has stretched so far..

tell me one thing how come you are a rafi fan and the sane time also a RD fan(as your DP says so)..this is also a new thing for me.. :)..

as for rafi fans I knew i n this community both are mutually exclusive areas :)

deviprasad

That Raju Bharatan interview with RD, mentioned in this thread a couple of times, can someone locate it for me? Thanks.

Ali

Kharoos,

Please don't misunderstand me, I never said RD-Rafi was the best combo (it was indeed a great one). All I said was that RD created songs for Lata and Rafi that were beyond KK and Asha, which is why I term those as his best output, even though KK and Asha have great songs from Junior Burman. RD-Rafi is among the best combo's and that list included such amazing combo's/associations as SJ-Rafi, Naushad-Rafi, MM-Rafi, OPN-Rafi, SDB-Rafi, LP-Rafi, Roshan-Rafi, Ravi-Rafi, Chitragupta-Rafi etc.

When I said "tailor-made" compositions for KK, I meant RD thrived on that aspect of KK's singing. Can you honestly tell me that RD-KK songs are hard to sing, or that they introduced a new style and so forth ?. They were simple, straight, and tailor-made for KK, and that style became popular for a few years. After a few years, it got repetitive. Ofcourse everyone has their own opinions which is great, but that is what I feel. Rafi brought melody, charm and so much more to RD songs, something he did for every composer.

It's not that I don't find Gulzar-RD songs not to be special, I do, there are a good number of them, and this has nothing to do with Rafi-saab. It's just that Majrooh and Anand Bakshi have more variety in their association with Pancham, and for every great Gulzar-RD song, there will be two Majrooh/AB songs to match it. I think the Gulzar-RD combo is overhyped to a huge extent. In terms of melody, there is a lot of melody in RD with Majrooh, AB, Yogesh etc. I would never put "O majhi re" in the league of a "Ni sultana re" or "Jane kya soch kar" in the league of a "Tumhein dekha hai", there is a vast difference (and other examples can be cited as well). Anyhow, Lata did full justice to those Gulzar numbers, Kishore did not (IMHO), Bhupinder was not bad. Asha also has better songs for RD than "Bechara dil kya kare", "Khali haath shaam" etc. I think Gulzar-RD shined through Lata, but saying that Gulzar-RD is something in a different class is just hype (IMO).

Ali

RD may have tried to prove something by giving KK numbers like "Mere naina sawan bhadon", "Is mod se jaate hain" etc. but in the end all he ended up doing was exposing KK's limitations. Here is where SDB hails supreme, his ability to choose the right singer for the composition. SDB covered up KK's limitations, but RD let loose, and in general giving those songs and more to KK, restricted him, instead of giving him compositional freedom. RD balanced things nicely early on vis a vis Rafi-KK, before kind of losing track, only to find sense again and return to what was the wise option.

Thanks for this wonderful debate Kharoos, really enjoyed it. Btw, don't go by the database on mohdrafi.com, its far from complete. Rafi and KK sang almost the same number of songs in the 70's. I can provide you the stats if you wish (year by year).

I think "Churaliya hai tumne" sums up RD's western music nicely, and who better than Rafi and Asha to sing such a timeless song.

@Harpreet

I am a huge Rafi fan. Rafi-saab is the greatest singer to have ever lived and he is the first and last word in playback singing. I am also a big fan of S-J, MM, L-P, and RDB (besides many other MD's).

Since you asked about RD, yes I do enjoy his music a lot, and since I am a huge Rafi fan, their combo rocks !. Indeed being a Rafi and RD fan at the same time may be interesting, but I know a good number of people who are RD-Rafi fans as well, and I know many Rafians who enjoy RD songs with Rafi and in general, which would in turn make them RD-Rafi fans too :).

Ali

Before I am misunderstood, let me just clarify.

RD-KK definitely were a great combo, and the style they introduced was very popular for a few years. RD knew exactly which parts of KK's singing to exploit, something he had learnt from his father, except that his father did not expose KK's limitations, whereas RD did.

When I mentioned introducing a new style, I meant it may have been "new" from the viewpoint of exploiting KK's strengths, but not new in general because Rafi had sung in that style before. In fact Rafi's singing style is the style that revolutionized film music, everyone else picked up cues from that and went their own way. So its not as if RD-KK was something new which Rafi had not attempted before. What was new was RD's music, and how well the RD-KK combo clicked, as well as RD making compositions "tailor-made" for KK. What RD-KK did together, and I am talking about songs that defined their combo, those that had modern trendy beats, simple singing, nice tune, great music etc., Rafi had done many a times with other MD's (as well as with RD). More than that, Rafi took singing to new and unmatched heights of glory, a level others could not reach.

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deviprasad

Kharoos

Thanks again!

Aseer...........

Kharoos

sincere request ,plz read abt my comment on Stats (or bikini) or read without it. i hope not to get misinterpreted.

i stand by my numbers and plz dont trust mohdrafi.com. they are too lazy. i added a few songs and they didnt update that in 3 years!!!!!!!!!

Amar moner ei---yes i have heard it.whats so special? tell me n i ll try to find it out when some puja committee is playing it full volume.

Gulzar ji.hmmmm, do u know he has the greatest number of followers in orkut among all his counterparts. Sahir sahab is half of him and shailendra ji cud hardly touch 100. so no doubt,it makes me a minority here.but trust me,I dont trust his too much as a poet,might be some anti-poet for writing "sofe se gir padi" or something like that. but yes,he has his own appeal,u r one victim and i dont deny sometimes he touches my heart with is vaugeness.

Supratim

@ Aseer Bhai...

Plz dont take Saahir n Gulzar's name with same breadth...

Gulzar may be "maestro".. but to me Sahir is godly....

Aseer...........

Supratim

u sound unlike a bengali, u grew up in kolkata really?

sahir sahab is indeed Godly. the way he sums up a man's fate in main pal do pal ka shaiir hoon

or the way he writes philosophy in main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya

or the way he can make simple words so beautifully in abhi na jao chhod kar

or the way he can break traditionality in mere mahboob kahin aur mila kar mujhse

or the way he can disillusion us in aaj is darja pila do ke na kuchh yaad rahe...whew i can keep typing all night.

Gulzar's total output cant match any of these singularly. Sorry all gulzarians. i m a proud minority .

Satyendra

@aseer

bhai jo bhi kaha sach hi kaha hoga aapne par ,

abhi na jao chhodkar ke baare me mai kuchh nahi keh sakta hooo.

this song and its impact on my life is out of the world and i think u only know this

Aseer...........

saty bhai

someday ask me its effect on my life, a closed and long forgotten chapter of it.

btw,what was the name of this topic?

Satyendra

@aseer

ab aapka chapter aur meri kitab, hum dono kahi aur discuss karenge kabhi tabiyat se:)

aur jaha tak topic ka sawal hai to mai yahi kahunga

"aaj is darza pila do ke na kuchh yaad rahe" lol

Satyendra

@fellow members and moderators

please pardon me as i went away from topic

Aseer...........

saty

kewl bhai.. sach me aaj is darja pila do ke na kuchh yaad rahe...

ishq bechayan khayalon ke siwa kuchh bhi nahi

husn berooh ujalon ke siwa kuchh bhi nahi

zindagi chand sawalon ke siwa kuchh bhi nahi

aaj bas itni dua do ke na kuchh yaad rahe

whew,man o man,it is meant for heart only.

Satyendra

aseer

hum to samjhe the ke hum bhool gaye hai unko

kya hua aaj ye kis baat pe rona aaya......

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obj!!!!!!! this is wayyyyy too much!!!! who's gonna read all of this!!!! at least not MEEEE...😛

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Kharoos:

Aseer bhai

I think the discussion has been twisted.. I always admit Sahir to be much much bigger a poet than Gulzar.. But my point was simple, amongst cacophony of 70s, it was Gulzar who was writing some sensible and poetic lyrics, at least, better than Anand Bakshi- whose association with LP gave some nursery rhyme kind of a lyrics( sab ke saamne/rab ke saamne, kaha hai/saha hai type of word matching)...

We should appreciate what is good and what not.. Gulzar is never a Sahir, but, what was Sahir's productivity in 70s in Hindi movies?? He was very selective and only used to chose specific assignments like those of the Chopras..

As far as, "amor moner" is concerned, the way you reacted, if I react in the same way that "what was so special about "Aaj mausam bada beimaan", tell me, next time I would be serious to note when I would hear it played in Rajabazaar", how would u feel?? These are small points, don't take seriously, though.. i have heard these enough, as I am the worst minority here of all, a fan of Hemant Kumar!! And I have heard such sarcastic comments too many from Kishore and Rafi fans that "what is so special about Yaad kiya dil ne kaha ho tum"?? I really could not answer properly, as music is many a times, lies in the eye of the listener...

Ali bhai, don't worry, please,, you have put up your views nicely, I never misunderstand anyone, as I have a benefit/disadvantage (whatever) of being an old music fan and not any particular singer's fan...

Nice discussion,anyways, as I said.. Really some good mmusic lovers contributed here... All the best to all of you..

Aseer...........

waise to tumhi ne mujhe barbaad kiya hai

ilzaam kisi aur ke sar jaaye to achcha.... so Rafi like

btw, he also wrote a booklet on Rafi sahab.damn it,which isnt avilable anymore

Satyendra

@kharoos

i agree to the point u made about gulzar that in 70s he wrote some sensible poetry in comparison of many. aap chahe jis singer ke fan ho but aapke posts me ek samajh aur music ka samman dikhta hai:) dats gr88.

thanks

satyendra

Satyendra

@aseer

kya yaar,

sahir wrote booklet for rafi sahab!!!!!!!!!!!

kaash !!!!!!!!................

Kharoos

@satyendra

Thank you so much,friend!!

There have been many fans who appreciated my points including Aseer bhai and Ali bhai, with whom I share a difference in opinion also:)).. So nice of you people!!

I am obliged...

Do post in a forum I have created for Rafisaab and SJ in this community!

Aseer...........

kharoos ji

ha ha zarur karunga.kal dekhiyega.

waise koi mere Rafi Nayyar thread ko bhi bacha leo re. I mean the best pair HFM ever produced.

with respect to all other MDs n combos

Aseer...........

saty

spot on.......

btw,was it woh jhal ?????

Satyendra