Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 4

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Khalrika thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#31
Rajnish, Sulochana was the daughter of the nagas. The naga dad/mom's name is not clear. According to Valmiki, Lakshman was 1/8 incarnation of Lord Vishnu (Shatrughan being the other 1/8th, Bharat is1/4th, and Ramji is 1/2 of Lord Vishnu. Together they make 1). Going by Valmiki, Indrajit is not the son-in-law of Lakshman because Lakshman is a direct 1/8th incarnation of Vishnu's power and not Sheshnag at all.

I don't know much about Ramcharitmanas.

I hope this helps!
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#32
I recall Vibs once posting that Sulochana was the daughter of not Sesha-nag, but Vasuki, the king of the Nagas. Vasuki, if you recall, was there in both Matsya & Kurma avatars: in Matsya avatar, he was used as the rope which was tied on Matsya's horn (no, it wasn't a swordfish 😆) and the other end was tied to the boat that had the saptarishis - and Vishnu (Matsya's) goal here was to save the Vedas for future generations.

In Kurma avatar, Vasuki was the rope used to wrap around Mt Meru and churn the oceans. I'm assuming that he has 1000 heads, while Adi-sesha has only 7. Reason being that when the mountain was being churned, Vasuki's venom kept coming out, killing a lot of asuras and devas, and so Shiva came to drink all that venom, earning him the name Nilkantha.

Vibs

Can you tell us from which source you had it that Vasuki was the father of Sulochana?
_rajnish_ thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#33
Thanks vrisha and khal di . I don't remember the source but i remember reading somewhere that sulochana was daughter of one of those nagas either shesh naag or vashuki. This i had read in some article in web rather than any scripture. since then i had this doubt. I don't know what source they had used.
Anyways shesh naag, vasuki , takshak e.t.c are all brothers, son of rishi kasyap and kadru. They had 1000 sons. So if we assume lakshman being incarnation of shesh naag and sulochana being daughter of vasuki then can we say they held uncle, nice relation?
Khal di as you said lakshman being 1/8 incarnation of lord vishnu as per valmiki. In bhagwatam balram is mentioned as incarnation of vishnu. And he lives in vaikunth as shesh naag so from this can we assume lakshman being incarnation of vishnu living in the form of shesh naag in vaikunth?
In serial jai Hanuman they shown sulochana being daughter of nagas and ones she was trapped by few hunters. Meghnaath then saved her from them and both taking permission from their parents got married. Which version has this story?


Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#34
Rajnish

Bhagvatam, and any other compositions by Ved Vyasa had Balaram being Adi-Sesha, and I suspect (you'd know better) that Adhyatma Ramayan is the one where the concept of Lakshman being Adi-Sesha, Shatrughan being Sudarshan-chakra originate. If one goes by Valmiki, that parallelism isn't there of Lakshman being Adi-Sesha. I tend to go w/ Valmiki for Ramayan and Ved Vyasa for Dwapar Yuga, so while I do believe that Balarama was Adi-Sesha, Lakshman wasn't.

In Valmiki, when Lakshman went to the Sarayu and controlled his Indrayaam, Deva Indra came and took him to Vaikuntha. In the Mahabharat (I dunno about the Krishna Puranas), when Krishna asked Balarama to wait for him, Balarama sat on the coast in a meditative posture and when Krishna returned, he witnessed a huge serpent emerge from his mouth.

That said, I however once read somewhere (don't remember where) that Balarama & Krishna were created of 2 hairs plucked out of Vishnu - Balarama being the hair that was while, and Krishna being the hair that was black.
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#35
It is true that Ravan was ancient. The rest of the Rakshasa clan must have been old too, though they fought like they were in the prime of their youth. Akshay Kumar was the youngest of Ravan's sons - though I have no idea if he was decades or centuries old.

In Raghuvamsa (by Kalidasa), the scene of Indumati's Swyamvara is described very well. As she passes by each king with a garland in her hand, someone speaks of the king's achievements and prowess. It is mentioned that kings from Southern India had also attended this ceremony. It was mentioned that the Pandya King who had attended the wedding had protected his kingdom and the rest of South India from Ravan and Ravan does not come near Tamil Nadu due to the fear of the Pandyas.

Also come to think of it, I have read that Ravan did try to conquer the Tamil Kingdoms but was thwarted each time and never managed it.

I wonder what all places did Ravan conquer.He is supposed to have conqured heaven and earth but it seems that there were so many places - neighbouring territories that he was never able to defeat.

He did not conquer South India, I know that for sure. not only was he beaten by the kings ruling here but also by Sage Aghasthya in a music contest as well (In the movie Sampoorna Ramayanam, Ravan says that he stopped playing the veena after being defeated by Sage Aghasthya. In the Tamil versions of the Ramayana, Ravan's flag has the veena as the symbol and he is referred to as the one with the veena flag. Veena is a stringed instrument popular in South India.). It was also said that Ravan after this defeat did not dare come near Tamil Nadu again.

As far as I know I cannot recall any account saying that he won over the Middle and East India either. But his relatives were rampant there - Khar, Dushan and Shurpanakha after she was widowed lived there.

He came North to fight against Anaranya but left without anexing the Solar Kingdom after killing him? This was something I have been thinking about ever since I saw that episode and read the chapters of this incident.


Does any book speak of his conquests in particular?
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#36

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

Basically, Ravan was old...very old.




Nice sigs.

Sorry to deviate from Ramayan, but which one is the last? It looks pretty impressive.
Khalrika thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#37
Nice to see u all here! Got to read everything before I post anything. Lalitha, thnx for the info on the movie. It looks good and I will see it. I hope it has English subtitles.

Thnx a bunch Vibs for the info!
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#38

Originally posted by: Same108

Oh well!
Can somebody explain me meaning of Bharata's dream (Ayodhya, sarga 69)? I mean what all these symbols, Bharat saw in his dream, actually represent?



Sarg 69, just for reference

Originally posted by: "Sarg 69"


Introduction

Bharata experiences a bad dream on that very night in which the messengers entered the city of Girivraja. His friends in the palace arranged entertainment like recitation of stories, playing of musical instruments, stage plays and jokes to make him cheerful. Even then, his depression was not gone. Bharata explains in detail his unpleasant dream in its different forms to his friends.


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yaam eva raatrim te duutaaH pravishanti sma taam puriim |
bharatena api taam raatrim svapno dR^iSTaH ayam apriyaH || 2-69-1

1. yaameva raatrim= on which very night; te duutaaH= those messengers; pravishantisma= entered; taam puriim= that city; taam raatrim=on that night; ayam =this; apriyah= unpleasant; svapneH= dream; dR^ishhTaH= was viewed; bharatena api= by Bharata also.

On that very night those messengers entered the city; Bharata also had experienced an unpleasant dream.

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vyuSTaam eva tu taam raatrim dR^iSTvaa tam svapnam apriyam |
putraH raaja adhiraajasya subhR^isham paryatapyata || 2-69-2

2. putraH= the son; raajaadhiraajasya= of Dasaratha, the paramount sovereign; dR^ishhTvaa= after seeing; tam= that; apriyam= unpleasant; svapnam= dream; vyushhTaam eva= just at the dawn; taam raatrim= of that night; paryatapyata= felt anguished; subhR^isham= very much.

Bharata, the son of Dasaratha the paramount sovereign, after seeing that unpleasant dream just at the dawn of that night, felt very much anguished.

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tapyamaanam samaaj~naaya vayasyaaH priya vaadinaH |
aayaasam hi vineSyantaH sabhaayaam cakrire kathaaH || 2-69-3

3. samaajJNaaya= knowing; tapyaamaanam= to be in anguish; vayasyaaH= his friends; priya vaadinaH= who speak kind words; chakrire= arranged; kathaaH= (recitation of ) stories; sabhaayaam= in the palace; vineshhyantaH hi= to indeed erase; aayaasam= his worry.

Knowing Bharata to have been in anguish, his graceful speaking friends arranged recitation of stories in the palace; so as to erase his anguish.

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vaadayanti tathaa shaantim laasayanti api ca apare |
naaTakaani apare praahur haasyaani vividhaani ca || 2-69-4

4. vaadayanti= (some) played musical instruments; shaantim= for his peacefulness. tathaa= In the same manner; apare= some others; laasayantyapi= arranged for playing; naaTakaani= of dramas; apare= and some others; praahuH= told; vividhaani= various types; haasyaani= of jokes.

Some played musical instruments for bringing about peacefulness. Likewise some others arranged for exhibition of dramas and some others told various types of jokes.

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sa taiH mahaatmaa bharataH sakhibhiH priya vaadibhiH |
goSThii haasyaani kurvadbhir na praahR^iSyata raaghavaH || 2-69-5

5. saH= that; mahaatmaa= high-soled; bharataH= Bharata; raaghavaH=born in Raghu dynasty; na praahR^ishhyata= could not be made cheerful; sakhibhiH= by his friends; priya vaadibhiH= who speak gentle words; goshhThiihaasyaani= by stage plays or jokes.

That high-soled Bharata born in Raghu Dynasty could not be made cheerful by his gently speaking friends by stage-plays or jokes.

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tam abraviit priya sakho bharatam sakhibhir vR^itam |
suhR^idbhiH paryupaasiinaH kim sakhe na anumodase || 2-69-6

6. priyasakhaH= A close friend; abraviit= spoke; tam bharatam= to that Bharata; vR^tam= surrounded; sakhibhiH= by his companions (as follows); "sakhe= O,friend! Kim=why; na anumodase=are you not rejoicing; paryupaasiinaH= even when entertained; suhR^idbhiH= by your friends?"

A close friend spoke to Bharata, who was surrounded by his companions, as follows, "O, friend! Why are you not rejoicing, even when entertained by your friends?"

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evam bruvaaNam suhR^idam bharataH pratyuvaaca ha |
shR^iNu tvam yan nimittamme dainyam etat upaagatam || 2-69-7

7. bharataH= Bharata; pratyuvaachaH= replied; suhR^idam=to the friend; bruuvaNam= who spoke; evam= thus; "tvam= you; shruNu= hear; yannimittam= for which reason; etat= this; dainyam= depression; upaagatam= came; me= to me."

Bharata replied to the friend who spoke thus, as follows "You listen to me the reason for which this depression came to me"

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svapne pitaram adraakSam malinam mukta muurdhajam |
patantam adri shikharaat kaluSe gomaye hrade || 2-69-8

8. adraakshham= I have seen; svapne= a dream; pitaram= (in which) my father; maliname= with soiled body; mukta muurdhajam= with his hair disheveled; patantam= was falling; adri shikharaat= from the top of a mountain; kalushhe= into a polluted; gomayahrade= pond defiled with cow dung."

"I have seen a dream in which my father with his soiled body and with his hair disheveled, was falling from the top of a mountain into a polluted pond defiled with cow dung.

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plavamaanaH ca me dR^iSTaH sa tasmin gomaya hrade |
pibann anjalinaa tailam hasann iva muhur muhuH || 2-69-9

9. saH= he; dR^ishhTaH= was seen; me= by me; (as he was) plavamaanaH= floating; tasmin= in that; gomayahrude= pond defiled with cow dung; piban= drinking; tailam= an oil; aNjalinaa= through his hollowed palms; hasan= and laughing; muhurmuhuH= again and again."

"He was seen by me, as he was floating in that pond defiled with cow dung, drinking an oil through his hollowed palms and laughing again and again"

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tataH tilodanam bhuktvaa punaH punar adhaH shiraaH |
tailena abhyakta sarva angaH tailam eva avagaahata || 2-69-10

10. tataH= thereafter; bhuktvaa= having eaten; tilodanam= cooked rice mixed with gingelly seeds; punah punah= repeatedly; adhaH shiraah= with his head bent down; abhyakta sarraaNg^aH= with his whole body smeared; tailam= with oil; anvagaahata= (he) plunged into; tailameva= the oil itself."

"Thereafter, having eaten cooked rice mixed with gingelly seeds repeatedly, with his head bent down and with his whole body smeared with oil, he plunged into the oil itself

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svapne api saagaram shuSkam candram ca patitam bhuvi |
sahasaa ca api samshantam jvalitam jaata vedasam || 2-69-11
aupavaahyasya naagasya viSaaNam shakaliikR^itam |
sahasaa caapi samshaantam jvalitam jaatavedasam || 2-69-12
avadiirNaam ca pR^ithiviim shuSkaamH ca vividhaan drumaan |
aham pashyaami vidhvastaan sadhuumaamH caiva paarvataan || 2-69-13

11, 12, 13. aham= I; pashyaami= saw; svapne= in the dream; saagaram= the ocean; shushhkam= dry up; chandram= the moon; patitam= fall; bhuvim= on the ground; jagatiim= the earth; uparuddhaam=molested; samaavR^itaam iva= as if covered; tamasaa= by darkness; vishhaaNam= a tusk; naagasya= of an elephant; oupavaahyasya= on which the monarch rode; shakaliikR^itam= broken to pieces; jvalitam=a blazing; jaatavedanam= fire; sahasaa= suddenly; samshaantam= extinguished; pR^ithiviim= the earth; avadiirNaamcha= riven;vividhaan= the various; drumaan= trees; shushhkaamcha=dry up; parvataan= the mountains; vidhvastaan= whirl up; sadhuumaan= into a mist."

"I saw in the dream, the ocean dry up, the moon fall on the ground, the earth molested as if covered by darkness, a tusk of an elephant (on which the monarch rode) broken to pieces, a blazing fire suddenly extinguished, the earth riven, the various trees dry up, and the mountains whirl up into a mist."

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piiThe kaarSNaayase ca enam niSaNNam kR^iSNa vaasasam |
prahasanti sma raajaanam pramadaaH kR^iSNa pingalaaH || 2-69-14

14. enam raajaanam= this king; kR^ishhNa vaasanam= wearing black clothes; nishhaNNam=sitting; piiThe=on a stool; kaarshhNaaayase= made of iron; pramaadaaH= and women ; kR^IshhNa piNgalaaH= in black and reddish brown; prahasanti= were laughing with mockery."

"I saw my father in the dream, wearing black clothes, sitting on a stool made of iron and women with black and reddish brown complexion deriding the king."

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tvaramaaNaH ca dharma aatmaa rakta maalya anulepanaH |
rathena khara yuktena prayaataH dakSiNaa mukhaH || 2-69-15

15. dharmaatmaa= my father, the virtuous man; raktamaalyaanulepanaH= adorned with red garlands and his body besmeared with sandal paste, rathena= seated in a chariot; kharayuktena= drawn by asses; prayaataH= proceeded; tvaramaaNashcha = towards south."

"My father, the virtuous man, adorned with red garlands and his body besmeared with sandal paste and seated in a chariot drawn by asses, proceeded hurriedly towards the south."

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prahasantiiva raajaanam pramadaa raktavaasinii |
prakarSantii mayaa dR^iSTaa raakshasii vikR^itaasanaa || 2-69-16

16. raakshhasii premadaa= a female demon; raktavaasinii= wearing red clothes; vikR^itaananaa= with an ugly face; dR^ishhTaa= was seen; mayaa= by me; prakarshhanti= dragging away; raajaanam= the king; prahasantiiva=while laughing."

"I saw an ugly faced female demon, wearing red colored clothes, laughingly dragging away the king.

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evam etan mayaa dR^iSTam imaam raatrim bhaya aavahaam |
aham raamaH atha vaa raajaa lakSmaNo vaa mariSyati || 2-69-17

17. etat= this; bhayaavaham= fearful (dream); dR^ishhTam= was seen; evam= thus; imaam raatrim= in that night; aham= I; athavaa= or; raajaa= the king; lakshhmaNoovaa= or Lakshmana; marishhyati= may die."

"This fearful dream was seen thus by me during that night. I myself or the king or Lakshmana may die."

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naraH yaanena yaH svapne khara yuktena yaati hi |
aciraat tasya dhuuma agram citaayaam sampradR^ishyate || 2-69-18

18. yaH= which; naraH= person; svapne= in a dream; (sees); yaati= going; yaanena= in a vehicle; kharayuktena= yoked with donkeys; dhuuma= the smoke; chitaayaam= on the funeral pyre; samprdR^ishyate= will be seen; agra= ascending; tasya= of him; achiraat= within a short time."

"If in a dream, a person sees a man going in a chariot, yoked with donkeys, the smoke of a funeral pyre will soon be seen ascending him."

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etan nimittam diino aham tan na vaH pratipuujaye |
shuSyati iva ca me kaNTho na svastham iva me manaH || 2-69-19

19. etannimittam= for this reason; aham= I; diinaH= am broken hearted. tat= Hence; na pratipuujaye= I am not able to honor. vaH= you; me= My; kaNThaH= throat; shushhyatiivacha= drying up. me= My; manaH= mind; na svastham= is not at ease."

"For this reason, I have become broken hearted. Hence, I am not able to treat you properly. My throat seems to be drying up. My mind is not at ease."

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na pashyaami bhayasthaanam bhayam caivopadhaaraye |
bhraSTashca svarayogo me chaayaa copahataa mama || 2-69-20
jugupsann iva ca aatmaanam na ca pashyaami kaaraNam |

20. na pashyaami= I do not see; bhayasthaanam= the root cause of fear; upadhaaraye=(But) I am experiencing; bhayam chaiva= a fear indeed; me= My; svarayogaH= voice; bhrashhTaH= is choked; mama= My; chhaayaacha= luster; upahataa= is effected; jugupsanniva=I abhor; aatmaanam me= myself; na pashyaami=and do not see; kaaraNamcha= a reason."

"I do not see the root cause of this fear. But I am experiencing a fear indeed. My voice is choked. My luster is affected. I abhor me myself and I do not see a reason for it."

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imaam hi duhsvapna gatim nishaamya taam |
aneka ruupaam avitarkitaam puraa |
bhayam mahat tadd hR^idayaan na yaati me |
vicintya raajaanam acintya darshanam || 2-69-21

21. tat=that; mahat= great; bhayam= fear; na yaati= is not going; me hR^idayaat= from my heart; nishhaamya= by seeing; imaam= this; taam= such; duHsvapnegatim= a course of a bad dream; aneka ruupaam= in many forms; atarkitaam= not imagined; puraa= earlier; vichintya= and thinking; raajaanaam= of the king; achintyadarshanam= in an inconceivable sight."

"That great fear is not going away from my heart, having seen such a course of this bad dream in varied forms and which dream was not imagined by me earlier and also reflecting on that inconceivable sight of the king."

Verse 15 above - a chariot drawn by asses and headed south implied that the rider was going to die very soon, as pointed out in verse 18. When Ravan was being warned to restore Sita, his relatives also reported to him seeing this dream.


Khalrika thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#39
Great question Vrish! Thanks Vibs!
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 15 years ago
#40
Vibs

Thanks for the response.

Also, when Vishwamitra was doing his tapasya to become Brahmarshi, and after Maneka had left, Indra sent one Rambha to distract him, and if I recall right, Vishwamitra cursed her, playing right into Indra's hands. Was this Rambha the same as Nalkubera's Rambha?
Edited by _Vrish_ - 15 years ago

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