Jodha's 'ghrna' helps Jalal become Akbar! - Page 4

Created

Last reply

Replies

37

Views

5.6k

Users

15

Likes

85

Frequent Posters

sweet_diksha thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail Networker 2 Thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
#31

Originally posted by: skanda12

Diksha, you won't believe this, but when I wrote this post your name popped in my mind suddenly and I had a feeling you would agree with this point of view. Maybe it was some other post you had written before that was at the back of my mind, so you came to memory as I was writing!
See the beauty of what happened yesterday for me is that Jalal now knows that Jodha does not hate him as a man or as a husband. He knows that actually she hates the kind of emperor role he has been playing so far, as he has been an emperor who was tolerating the horrible acts of his men. It will now give him a chance to change the kind of emperor he has been so far, and at the same time he won't be thinking she hates him as a person or a husband. That distinction may become clear to him!



Thanks, Mansi. ya. i have always said this. Jalal always hated Jodha for her hatred towards him there is no other reason. and now he knows the reason for her hatred, he is at the point of taking final decision. now his actions will speak and she will react positively , so no reason for hatred for both. it may take some more time, as MA and co r still there. but good , Jalal now is starting a new Journey towards understanding HIS ppl
sashashyam thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 12 years ago
#32
Well, Mansi, this is as meticulous and beautifully argued as anything you do, but I have basic differences with 2 key points.

First, I do NOT buy your "you have helped convert a small man into a great one in your one spectacular moment of personal grief-shedding!".

Jalal was never a small man. Not when he almost killed Adham in Malwa for atrocities against the common people there, and insists that as soon as region has been conquered and forms part of the Mughal empire, all its residents are entitled to equal protectio thru Mughal justice.

Not when he went against Bairam Khan to get justice for Raja Takhatmal, Not when he freed the parents of that little Hindu boy out of sheer compassion.

It was not a small man who knelt in front of an alien goddess, saw his Allah is that ugra kapalakundala Devi Maa, and risked the charge of butparasti (idol worship) not only to try and bring closure to Jodha's evident agony of soul over her failed sankalp, but also because, as I wrote in my Gordian Knot post of yesterday,

"In Jodha's troubled and angry gaze, he sees not just the woman whose acceptance he craves, even if only subconsciously as yet, whose barely veiled hostility hurts him like nothing ever before.

He sees the whole of the Hindustan that he wishes to unite under his rule, not by brute force,but thru willing acceptance. Na ki shamsheer ki dhar se, par rishton ke reshmi dhagon me piroke.To win the heart of this Hindustan, he knows now what he has to do. For them to accept him, he has first to accept them.

Jalal already has the breadth of spiritual vision, the inner clarity, that lets him see his Allah in the Devi. Not many even today, anywhere in the world, are able to do that, for all the current politically correct patter about accepting all religions. And in the 16th century, when Protestants and Catholics were massacring each other and burning each other at the stake all over Europe and in England, for the Emperor Jalaluddin Mohammed to demonstrate such purity of thought, such innate humanisn, was nothing short of a miracle"

He is no small man who needs one woman's grief to make him great. The only thing Jodha did there was to let him know that this outrage had been committed, something he did not know. If he had known of it, he would have acted immediately to set it right.

He does not react now because the sense of outrage is Jodha's. He would have done the same if it was that little Hindu boy again who briefed him about the temple looting. So how is it a unique contribution of Jodha's? She just acts a public grievance system.

Secondly, let us dissect Jodha's diatribe. It falls into 2 parts, one the despoilation of the Kali temple, and second the killing of the Ameri soldiers.

What I could not understand was her behaving as if this kind of outrage was unknown in her knowledge of history and thus so uniquely traumatic. In fact it was the opposite. I live in Pune, and I have read original documents in the archives here about how much looting and pillaging used to go on all around even before the Mughals. Not all the Rajvanshi rulers were like Maharana Pratap or his father Maharana Udai Singh or, later, Shivaji Maharaj. Some of them were pretty low specimens of humanity (a courtesy term when used for them) and they used to inflict these outrages on their own subjects.

Jodha would surely have heard some of these stories, unless her auditory apparatus has a filter set to cut off anything that does not have the word Jalal in it, like the trigger word activating an intelligency agency wiretap!😉

I am not surprised that she also assumes that Jalal must have personally authorised the raid on the temple. Moti once tried to point out to her, long before he came into the picture with his secret descent on Amer, that he might have known nothing about such things done in his name.Jodha dismissed the idea out of hand then, and obviously would do the same now. As I noted elsewhere, imagination and perceptiveness are not her strong points

Next, her claim that the Kali mandir attack was unexpected, and the Ameri soldiers having been caught unawares and thus killed. If this was so, why the the escort at all? In those day, real safety was only within your fortress walls, and there could have been dacoits, like those patronised by Sujanpur, even if there had been no Mughals. So why was Jodha's escort unprepared? That is something for which they should have been punished for slackness, as I did see any number of Ameri survivors after the Mughal raiders had been beaten off and Motibai rescued. Not lamented over as Jodha seems to be doing.

Actually, Jodha was not referring to that incident when she was talking about the burning pyres. She was referring to the battle with Sharifuddin, where the Amer army was defeated, for she clearly mentions their desire of Amer to retain its independence. Now here again, there are 2 points.

One, as her wonderful Dadisa points out, Amer was constantly coveted by a number of her more powerful Rajvanshi neighbours. If one of them had overrun and captured it, what about that? Would Jodha have felt better if her beloved Amer had been annexed by a Rajvanshi and not by a Mughal? Perhaps.

Two, assuming that it is the Mughal attack that alone is being considered, Jodha's rant about the burning pyres of the dead Ameri soldiers made no sense at all. Most of the Amer army was taken prisoner by Sharifuddin, not killed.

And if she is talking of the soldiers Jalal killed while he was escaping from Amer with the injured Abdul (whom I miss more than I can say!) if he had not killed them all, he could never have got away. So that part was nonsense.

So, my point is that Jodha's carrying on as if Jalal had authorised and presided over some uniquely outrageous attack against the Kali mandir is as unwarranted as her ranting about Jalal having crushed Amer's desire for independence. She is talking, as usual, thru her hat, or rather her pallav. If she had been married to the villainous Raja of Bundi, she would have found out at first hand what a king could inflict on his own people, and his wives.

The CVs may trot out the Jodha ne Jalal ko haivaan se kaise banaya insaan mantra, but let us not fall into that highly misleading pit along with them. Jalal was never a small man. He always had greatness in him, and once he was freed of his Khan Baba's harsh maxims, he came into his own, of which his descent on Malwa to eend Adham's atrocities was a prime example. That had nothing to do with Jodha.

He does not defend himself to Jodha now not because it was some uniquely horrible incident, but rather because, even if he did not know about it, much less authorise it, the buck stops with him as the Shahenshah, and he is morally responsible for anything wrong done by his soldiers. He does not fudge that responsibility.

In the transformation of Jalal into Akbar, there were many catalysts, and Jodha was one of them. But not even the most effective catalyst can trigger a chemical reaction if the basic ingredients are not already present. And then there are some chemical reactions that are auto-catalysed, as with Jalal a good part of the time, beginning with the breakneck 16 day ride to Malwa to save Baz Bahadur's former subjects from Adham Khan.

Shyamala
Edited by sashashyam - 12 years ago
skanda12 thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 12 years ago
#33

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Well, Mansi, this is as meticulous and beautifully argued as anything you so, but I have basic differences with 2 key points.

First, I do NOT buy your "you have helped convert a small man into a great one in your one spectacular moment of personal grief-shedding!".

Jalal was never a small man. Not when he almost killed Adham in Malwa for atrocities against the common people there, and insists that as soon as region has been conquered and forms part of the Mughal empire, all its residents are entitled to equal protectio thru Mughal justice.

Not when he went against Bairam Khan to get justice for Raja Takhatmal, Not when he freed the parents of that little Hindu boy out of sheer compassion.

It was not a small man who knelt in front of an alien goddess, saw his Allah is that ugra kapalakundala Devi Maa, and risked the charge of butparasti (idol worship) not only to try and bring closure to Jodha's evident agony of soul over her failed sankalp, but also because, as I wrote in my Gordian Knot post of yesterday,

"In Jodha's troubled and angry gaze, he sees not just the woman whose acceptance he craves, even if only subconsciously as yet, whose barely veiled hostility hurts him like nothing ever before.

He sees the whole of the Hindustan that he wishes to unite under his rule, not by brute force,but thru willing acceptance. Na ki shamsheer ki dhar se, par rishton ke reshmi dhagon me piroke.To win the heart of this Hindustan, he knows now what he has to do. For them to accept him, he has first to accept them.

Jalal already has the breadth of spiritual vision, the inner clarity, that lets him see his Allah in the Devi. Not many even today, anywhere in the world, are able to do that, for all the current politically correct patter about accepting all religions. And in the 16th century, when Protestants and Catholics were massacring each other and burning each other at the stake all over Europe and in England, for the Emperor Jalaluddin Mohammed to demonstrate such purity of thought, such innate humanisn, was nothing short of a miracle"

He is no small man who needs one woman's grief to make him great. The only thing Jodha did there was to let him know that this outrage had been committed, something he did not know. If he had known of it, he would have acted immediately to set it right.

He does not react now because the sense of outrage is Jodha's. He would have done the same if it was that little Hindu boy again who briefed him about the temple looting. So how is it a unique contribution of Jodha's? She just acts a public grievance system.

Secondly, let us dissect Jodha's diatribe. It falls into 2 parts, one the despoilation of the Kali temple, and second the killing of the Ameri soldiers.

What I could not understand was her behaving as if this kind of outrage was unknown in her knowledge of history and thus so uniquely traumatic. In fact it was the opposite. I live in Pune, and I have read original documents in the archives here about how much looting and pillaging used to go on all around even before the Mughals. Not all the Rajvanshi rulers were like Maharana Pratap or his father Maharana Udai Singh or, later, Shivaji Maharaj. Some of them were pretty low specimens of humanity (a courtesy term when used for them) and they used to inflict these outrages on their own subjects.

Jodha would surely have heard some of these stories, unless her auditory apparatus has a filter set to cut off anything that does not have the word Jalal in it, like the trigger word activating an intelligency agency wiretap!😉

I am not surprised that she also assumes that Jalal must have personally authorised the raid on the temple. Moti once tried to point out to her, long before he came into the picture with his secret descent on Amer, that he might have known nothing about such things done in his name.Jodha dismissed the idea out of hand then, and obviously would do the same now. As I noted elsewhere, imagination and perceptiveness are not her strong points

Next, her claim that the Kali mandir attack was unexpected, and the Ameri soldiers having been caught unawares and thus killed. If this was so, why the the escort at all? In those day, real safety was only within your fortress walls, and there could have been dacoits, like those patronised by Sujanpur, even if there had been no Mughals. So why was Jodha's escort unprepared? That is something for which they should have been punished for slackness, as I did see any number of Ameri survivors after the Mughal raiders had been beaten off and Motibai rescued. Not lamented over as Jodha seems to be doing.

Actually, Jodha was not referring to that incident when she was talking about the burning pyres. She was referring to the battle with Sharifuddin, where the Amer army was defeated, for she clearly mentions their desire of Amer to retain its independence. Now here again, there are 2 points.

One, as her wonderful Dadisa points out, Amer was constantly coveted by a number of her more powerful Rajvanshi neighbours. If one of them had overrun and captured it, what about that? Would Jodha have felt better if her beloved Amer had been annexed by a Rajvanshi and not by a Mughal? Perhaps.

Two, assuming that it is the Mughal attack that alone is being considered, Jodha's rant about the burning pyres of the dead Ameri soldiers made no sense at all. Most of the Amer army was taken prisoner by Sharifuddin, not killed.

And if she is talking of the soldiers Jalal killed while he was escaping from Amer with the injured Abdul (whom I miss more than I can say!) if he had not killed them all, he could never have got away. So that part was nonsense.

So, my point is that Jodha's carrying on as if Jalal had authorised and presided over some uniquely outrageous attack against the Kali mandir is as unwarranted as her ranting about Jalal having crushed Amer's desire for independence. She is talking, as usual, thru her hat, or rather her pallav. If she had been married to the villainous Raja of Bundi, she would have found out at first hand what a king could inflict on his own people, and his wives.

The CVs may trot out the Jodha ne Jalal ko haivaan se kaise banaya insaan mantra, but let us not fall into that highly misleading pit along with them. Jalal was never a small man. He always had greatness in him, and once he was freed of his Khan Baba's harsh maxims, he came into his own, of which his descent on Malwa to eend Adham's atrocities was a prime example. That had nothing to do with Jodha.

He does not defend himself to Jodha now not because it was some uniquely horrible incident, but rather because, even if he did not know about it, much less authorise it, the buck stops with him as the Shahenshah, and he is morally responsible for anything wrong done by his soldiers. He does not fudge that responsibility.

Shyamala

Shyamala, thanks for your reply, you have as always put the points across very aptly, and I can see the validity of the points you have made.
Let me try to give you my perspective on those two points you made:
1. My choice of words for Jalal may not have been too good, for I did not mean to make him out to be a "small man" in the sense that he could never be that given his life and accomplishments so far. What I meant however was to make a distinction between the "man he is" to the "man he is to become" ie. Jalal to Akbar the Great. I see Jalal as a much smaller version than Akbar the Great. So maybe using the words "small man" must have sounded like the man was small rather than it being a relative term to the man he was to eventually become.
2. Regarding whether Jodha was reasonable in thinking Jalal may have authorised the vandalism of the temple or her acceptance of war killings etc. The point that strikes me is that when someone is in pain, that pain may be due to mental constructs they carry around, which may or may not be thr right constructs, but the pain they feel nevertheless is real pain that only they can feel, because those constructs feel like real to them. We can argue that they should not perceiving things this way or that, or assuming this or that or even being unreasonable about this or that. But what is in their mind (right or wrong) is inducing pain to them and that pain is real whether or not their perceptions of situations are correct or wrongly formed or understood by them. I am therefore taking it that Jodha is in pain (for her own reasons) and I do not wish to question her motivations at this point or to rationalise them). Now given that jalal has seen that she is in pain he has a few options:
a. he can first try to remedy the pain (and since the pain has to do more with his being a barbarism-tolerant emperor than for his being a bad human being or husband, it is right that he should try to see how to become a different sort of emperor if that will help ease her pain a bit). he could issue a zero-tolerance diktat on looting hereafter or help restore the temple jewelry again. (here some people PM-ed me saying why doesn't Bharmal buy new temple ornaments, but I believe in some temples the ornaments are as sacred as the idol itself, so if Jalal finds and replaces the old ornaments that may mean more if the rajputs feel that way).
b. he can then go into her motivations for the pain if he so wishes and if these are based on wrong premises he can try to show her why her reasoning is wrong (for instance he can teach her to accept war tragedies as inevitable, or he can try to tell her that due to decentralisation he is not always in control of every soldier in his ranks.)
The thing is when Jodha is in so much pain if her tries this Plan (b) above, she will not be in any frame of mind to see reason on her own or see the value of what he is saying, much like someone in pain is not able to see beyond the pain while it is there. If on the other hand, the pain can be eased by other lateral actions (such as in Plan (a) above), then when she is relatively at greater peace than before he try the option in Plan (b). (If Jodha finds her peace she may also not need to be told that her premises were wrong, she may very likely herself realise that she was working on wrong presumptions so far and her sense of truth was being blinded by her pain).
That is my feeling. Don't know if you agree?
Edited by skanda12 - 12 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 12 years ago
#34
Yes, Mansi, I would accept your clarifications and amplification on both of my points. They are balanced, sensible and convincing. You are one of the most rational persons around here.

Jalal is going to try and implement plan A,though how far that can be done in war time I do not know, seeing that even the Iron Duke of Wellington could not prevent his troops from looting and attacking women during the war against Napoleon in Spain, and we all know what was done to German women by the victorious Soviet and Allied troops in WW II. How many of his own soldiers can he execute before dissension sets in. He can of course try to reduce the incidence of such incidents to the maximum.

I wondered if Jodha took in anything of what Mahaam yelled at her about the risks to Jalal from the temple visit. It did not seem so. For a princess born, she is strangely blank when it comes to politico-military and siyasati realities.

Lastly, the delightful precap reminded me of nothing so much as a wife waking up her husband at 2 am on a cold winter night and asking him to investigate a noise in the basement. Jalal's face as he looked at the khanjar his biwi had handed him, even as she made Bharatanatyam style nayanamudras towards the door, asking him to get on with it, was a treat!😉Shyamala

[QUOTE=skanda12
Shyamala, thanks for your reply, you have as always put the points across very aptly, and I can see the validity of the points you have made.
Let me try to give you my perspective on those two points you made:
1. My choice of words for Jalal may not have been too good, for I did not mean to make him out to be a "small man" in the sense that he could never be that given his life and accomplishments so far. What I meant however was to make a distinction between the "man he is" to the "man he is to become" ie. Jalal to Akbar the Great. I see Jalal as a much smaller version than Akbar the Great. So maybe using the words "small man" must have sounded like the man was small rather than it being a relative term to the man he was to eventually become.
2. Regarding whether Jodha was reasonable in thinking Jalal may have authorised the vandalism of the temple or her acceptance of war killings etc. The point that strikes me is that when someone is in pain, that pain may be due to mental constructs they carry around, which may or may not be thr right constructs, but the pain they feel nevertheless is real pain that only they can feel, because those constructs feel like real to them. We can argue that they should not perceiving things this way or that, or assuming this or that or even being unreasonable about this or that. But what is in their mind (right or wrong) is inducing pain to them and that pain is real whether or not their perceptions of situations are correct or wrongly formed or understood by them. I am therefore taking it that Jodha is in pain (for her own reasons) and I do not wish to question her motivations at this point or to rationalise them). Now given that jalal has seen that she is in pain he has a few options:
a. he can first try to remedy the pain (and since the pain has to do more with his being a barbarism-tolerant emperor than for his being a bad human being or husband, it is right that he should try to see how to become a different sort of emperor if that will help ease her pain a bit). he could issue a zero-tolerance diktat on looting hereafter or help restore the temple jewelry again. (here some people PM-ed me saying why doesn't Bharmal buy new temple ornaments, but I believe in some temples the ornaments are as sacred as the idol itself, so if Jalal finds and replaces the old ornaments that may mean more if the rajputs feel that way).
b. he can then go into her motivations for the pain if he so wishes and if these are based on wrong premises he can try to show her why her reasoning is wrong (for instance he can teach her to accept war tragedies as inevitable, or he can try to tell her that due to decentralisation he is not always in control of every soldier in his ranks.)
The thing is when Jodha is in so much pain if her tries this Plan (b) above, she will not be in any frame of mind to see reason on her own or see the value of what he is saying, much like someone in pain is not able to see beyond the pain while it is there. If on the other hand, the pain can be eased by other lateral actions (such as in Plan (a) above), then when she is relatively at greater peace than before he try the option in Plan (b). (If Jodha finds her peace she may also not need to be told that her premises were wrong, she may very likely herself realise that she was working on wrong presumptions so far and her sense of truth was being blinded by her pain).
That is my feeling. Don't know if you agree?



Edited by sashashyam - 12 years ago
skanda12 thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 12 years ago
#35

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Shyamala: My points in blue below:
Yes, Mansi, I would accept your clarifications and amplification on both of my points. They are balanced, sensible and convincing. You are one of the most rational persons around here.
Thanks for that! If it comes from you, its special!

Jalal is going to try and implement plan A,though how far that can be done in war time I do not know, seeing that even the Iron Duke of Wellington could not prevent his troops from looting and attacking women during the war against Napoleon in Spain, and we all know what was done to German women by the victorious Soviet and Allied troops in WW II. How many of his own soldiers can he execute before dissension sets in. He can of course try to reduce the incidence of such incidents to the maximum.

In fact I too am wondering what route he may take to curb the "instincts" of his rank and file. Seeing as how he is unable to curb the one-man army of Adam (who must be more stupid that any one else) except to occasionally rant at him, what can Jalal do to light the dynamite under the bottoms of his men, who all sound like mini-Adams?

I wondered if Jodha took in anything of what Mahaam yelled at her about the risks to Jalal from the temple visit. It did not seem so. For a princess born, she is strangely blank when it comes to politico-military and siyasati realities.

Lastly, the delightful precap reminded me of nothing so much as a wife waking up her husband at 2 am on a cold winter night and asking him to investigate a noise in the basement. Jalal's face as he looked at the khanjar his biwi had handed him, even as she made Bharatanatyam style nayanamudras towards the door, asking him to get on with it, was a treat!😉
Re: the precap. I thought I read somewhere that Jodha will save Jalal from some near-attack at Amer. Not sure if this precap refers to that. And it struck me yesterday that he is not 100% fit yet to handle an attacker even if Jodha gave him the dagger and asked him to take a look. So maybe she will still intervene and help him?
Shyamala



tareyfan thumbnail
13th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail Networker 3 Thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
#36
i hv grown a fan of ur posts nw..d way u put forth d matter is really praise worthy...!!
skanda12 thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 12 years ago
#37

Originally posted by: tareyfan

i hv grown a fan of ur posts nw..d way u put forth d matter is really praise worthy...!!

Thanks so much!😛
doyelpakhi thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
#38
Mansi, really nice post!👏

But as Shyamala aunty has rightly pointed out that Jalal was never a small man. If he would have been a small man, he would not have the sensitivity to bear Jodha's tantrums or understand her words.

Jodha's ghrina only helped him to realize the way he needs to follow to rule over the heart and minds of Hindustan.

In this serial, they will show only Jodha to be the catalyst for changing Jalal into Akbar. 😕But history shows us that Jalal had been in search of the ultimate truth and the Divine being from the time when he was merely a teen.

Reasons for his liberal thoughts were many - his tutelage under Sufi teachers, his Rajput relatives and it includes not only Princess of Amer but also Bhagwan Das, Man Singh, etc and perhaps most important influences in Akbar's life in the matter of philosophy and religion were of Abul Fazl and Birbal.

Whatever is known about the daily routine of Akbar, it is quiet clear that the real Akbar didn't use to spend so much time in his harem as is shown in the serial.😉 Rather than be with Jodha or his other begums, he used to spend more quality time with Birbal and Abul Fazl! 😆Badauni, a historian in Akbar's court, hated Birbal and Abul Fazl and even indirectly accused them for making Akbar deviate from the path of Islam.
Edited by doyelpakhi - 12 years ago

Related Topics

Jodha Akbar thumbnail

Posted by: ParijatDeewani · 6 months ago

Hey y'all! I've created this thread so that you'll can easily access all the Akdha Vms in one place. Please feel free to add to the list. 1....

Expand ▼
Jodha Akbar thumbnail

Posted by: Swissgerman · 6 years ago

Jodha Akbar FF : --- Who loves Him Most (M) --- Link to my other threads Thread 1 Thread 2 - Thread 3 :::::Thread 4::::...

Expand ▼
Jodha Akbar thumbnail

Posted by: jojaparijat · 6 days ago

I’m not sure if this forum is active but thought of making a post after reading Shagun’s JA 12th anniversary post. For years i have been...

Expand ▼
Jodha Akbar thumbnail

Posted by: Swissgerman · 10 years ago

... Shahzada Of Her Dreams ... ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Index::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Chapter-1.....The beginning Chapter-2:...

Expand ▼
Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".