Musings on tonight's episode - Page 2

@arshicritic- you won me over with your post ..!!! brilliant :)

@Vaishali: I agree, the caliber of these posts is totally matching upto the caliber of the show!

Originally posted by: humeshaa

@Vaishali: I agree, the caliber of these posts totally matching upto the caliber of the show!

@skepblun: You've raised an excellent point about women and society. I think the underlying issue is the proper education of women and its negative connotation in the so-called religious and moral society today. Khoti-kaki started her rant with the fact that, just because Kumud is educated, she's doing all these "disgraceful" things. When in reality, it is the lack of her own education that she has such narrow mind and perspective. If we had more parents like Gun and VC, the world would be a much better place with amazing women such as Kumud!

Originally posted by: Marybarton

I always look forward to your posts because you are one of the best writers here. The way you express yourself, interpret scenes, and symbols are most engaging. Please keep up the good work.

Agreed with you on everything you wrote except with the innocent intimacy bits. Suppose we are coming from two different ways of thinking. I am fairly conservative too, but I think a little interest in one another like Saras and Kumud has is only normal. Most people are not able to draw the traditions line in black and white as VC would have it (rekha). It is a little more smudged than that, I feel.

I am not speaking for everyone but I feel many people don't have that amount of control over their emotions when they are in love. They do love and adore each other, that creates a lot of attraction and they still keep to certain limits. What they are doing is quite innocent I feel. SLB is showing very human relationships. So we see differently on this matter but that doesn't mean you are wrong or I am right. It's just differences in beliefs. Kumud and Saras are very traditional, conservative and human in my view. They are just smitten with each other ☺️

Originally posted by: vaishali-AR

Hey! this has come as a bit of a surprise for me to be honest.. I thought you of all people who writes so exceptionally well and has deciphered all the characters n their emotions so beautifully in your posts, will have a better understanding of the context .. So here are few things I would like to point out before I go on to anything else :

1. Nandini and Sameer in HDDCS NEVER made out.. NEVER !
2. Dev and Paro again NEVER made out in Devdas .
The point is even if they did... even if Nandini pined for Sameer after marriage.. doesnt that happen? And if things like these happen then why can't a film maker show it? I am not even arguing about right or wrong here...
3. The scene in Black where Michelle asks her teacher to kiss her is one of the most beautiful moments in the movie.. it wasnt for physical attraction or anything.the blind n deaf girl had always seen and heard the world from her teachers eyes and ears... now when she wanted to experience this completely alien feeling of being kissed.. who does she go to? she asks her teacher.. she knew nothing about man's touch , sexual desire ..the teacher obliged the woman in her... knowing that her fate would never allow her to experience a kiss ever...it was just like granting the last wish of a person in deathbed knowing he/she would never live to experience anything again..

Coming to this show, I think Reema has already said whatever I had to say... its not about right or wrong, moral or immoral.. Nobody plans love..Love happens just like it has happened with them.. They had never planned to get close to each other... It has been a mutual attraction which they have been fighting for a long time now...Saras still thinks that he is jinxed and that he either loses people who he loves or they get hurt ... But how can he deny or possibly stop the natural attraction he feels for her..?? It doesnt come with an on and off button ! Same goes for Kumud... Isnt it natural for a girl to want to feel the touch of the man she so ardently loves, even if momentarily??

Originally posted by: arshicritic

Humesha, loved what you have written

Very very well said!

@ skepblun

Thank you, for this post and creating a platform for such a wonderful discussion.

@ skepblun ..(This is a cut paste from my post on arshi thread)...

Let me try to explain why I think its interesting...or why he it feels slow,,,or how the cookie crumbles...

this guy's only unconditonal love was his original mom 'saraswati' who committed suicide in front of him...consequently he has considered that as a personal rejection of his unconditional love...someone whom he loved unconditionally rejected him and kllled herself and left him despite him calling out to her to stop (the lake scene)...no one else has reciprocated / replaced such a love till now,,not his father, not his new mom ...no one...the loss had caused deep hurt and he has built walls to avoid going through the experience again ever...

now kumud has broken through his defenses simply by being the person she is and caused a connection (not in his control at all, happened despite his walls)...our guy likes the feeling...but remmbers the hurt associated with this feeling too...

now our guy simply does not know how to deal with this...he can't believe that there is a possibility for him to give and receive love unconditionally,,,,,he is grappling within himself if this is really happening for real or a fantasy...if it is for real will this also be taken away like the first time?...will the hurt come back again?...is it worth it?...what should be the next step for him to take?...how does he express what he feels when he fears that if he expresses it his 'new' unconditional love kumud may reject him and cause all the pain to come again?...remember our lady is still giving confusing signals...come close to him, helps him unconditionally and then starts running away from him / fighting him / telling him to keep his distance / leave etc.

in yesterday's episode he has become aware and laid it out to her (that indicates how comfortable he is already with her)...i am feeling this, are you?...it's like a final sanity check...if she says me too, he is going to just jump...consequences be damned...that's how deep our lady has penetrated his defenses...

so its a rich trapesty of emotions...the powerful aspects of this story & relationship will be how love becomes the force which clears his mental muck, uplifts him and heals him...and since her love healed him, he will later do anything humanely possible to make sure her 'love' for him is not taken away ever and he always measures up to her 'love'... and i mean her 'love' not limited to being physically with him, but her soul ...for him it will be 2 phases only 'life before kumud' and 'life after kumud'...

...I have not read the book, but have friends who have and that is what the book is all about...come rain or shine, whether you are with each other or married to someone else, in the same city or worlds apart...from the time these two fall for each other NO ONE will be able to take away at any time their 'connection' and fusion of their love and souls...their love will always be an impenetrable space to the entire world and available for only these two... and nothing going forward will change their love for each other...they will have to bow down to society's rules, but in their innermost heart and minds, both will still be showing a finger to the world and always be together...and this love will be their strength to overcome all that life will throw at them...

because it is based on a book...characters written for a book have the liberty of getting pages to develop characters...

SLB has taken an ambitious concept...no one has done this in indian television so far...and full credit to the writers / cast to be able to translate all this complexity into a TRP based format and still retain the flavor...

Having said that I sincerely hope that while retaining the overall direction, the makers don't show these two married off to someone else...It is all good in theory I explained above to show love triumph against this most fearful challenge anyone in love can face... but I know I just won't be able to handle it ... :-(

I just love both these 'dobas' too much now ...

p.s. sorry again for the longish post...

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for compliments on the writing and adding to the POV about Guman, Yash's mom and VC-Gun's parenting.

I knew the part on criticism would attract a strong reaction (this is why I had resisted commenting on threads that questioned Saras' behaviour).

Let me clarify myself here:

@Reemz - I understood that moment in Black very well. But for me every relationship has certain limits and I consider the relationship between a guru and a shishya as even higher than that between parents and kids. So yes I did have problem with that scene in Black and it's the only thing which spoils it for me. Otherwise it is a beautiful film about how a teacher can transform a student's life, discipline and motivate her and make something out of nothing (a student is like clay and Michelle was not even wet clay. She was considered mud. Debraj had to identify that she was clay in first play and could be moulded!).

Michelle had "witnessed" her sister's wedding and learnt about the kissing part. This is why she asked all this from her teacher. But what if she had also known about her sister becoming a mother and having a baby of her own?!
Would she have asked or cribbed about the feeling of becoming a mother to her teacher and he'd have arranged to give it to her?!

NO right? I believe there is NO limit to our so called natural needs and desires BUT there are limits as a part of a civil society of human beings.

Why do you think Debraj was shown ashamed and he suddenly left Michelle? That incident filled him with irrepairable guilt and shame. And in voiceover Rani says "tum apni nazron mein gir gaye the". His alzheimer's also worsens after that incident (not just due to age).

Why?Because there are certain limits for decent human beings.

We also have crushes on our teachers. But we even control the kind of looks we give them and try our best not to make our feeling of attraction apparent.

Now one can write lot of chapters on love and how love knows no boundaries. But "no boundaries" can spell lot of trouble because we are not living on an island. We live in a society. In Aradhana, the lovers cross al boundaries in name of love. Later the woman has to pay for it all through her life.

In Dhool Ka Phool, lovers broke every boundary. The woman suffered but later restarted her life. It is the result of that "crossing al boundaries" - the poor kid who is deserted by both parents who suffers ignominy all his life.

This is why strict parents are needed and slaps from likes of a Guniyal are necessary whether kids have actually done anything wrong or not.

Whether wrong or right, people like Yash's mom and Guman exist and even worse people exist who will talk trash about the family and express doubts on character of even those girls who remained inside the house - just on the basis of "perception" of behaviour of one girl.

Also I do not understand the closeness and affection given to Saras by VC's family. It is excessive. He is not Jija ji yet! He is not even "hone wala jija ji" yet! He's just a candidate for jija ji!

So control your behaviour towards him. That guy is already bereft of affection all through his life and has basically stayed away so you do not know anything about what he actually is except his parentage. Why shower him with so much closeness?

I find even VC & family's affection for him excessive.

No wonder he slips up!

@Vaishali:

Nandini and Sameer did make out in HDDCS. What was happening in the library when her bua discovered them? What were they doing in Aankhon ki gustakhiyan song? Moving to corners to kiss and hug? What was Sameer doing - untying strings of Nandini's choli and touching her here and there while they were talking to that dadi taking advantage of the fact that she could barely see?

About Devdas - What were Dev and Paro doing by the pond in the dead of the night in the Morey Piya song? Both families are busy in godh bharayi function so let's steal some moments together by a secluded pond?!

Bairi piya song had nothing except playfulness. Morey piya had something more than that.

@Arshicritic - Beautiful post and description about love. 👏

But maybe our POV is different. I believe it gets murky and blurry and subject to judgement when it comes to physical realm.
There are reasons why a natural desire like hunger is not included as a "vikaar" whereas "Kaam" and "moh" are included as "vikaar" in almost every religion and society.

These two needs, if not reined in or regulated can wreak havoc in individuals' lives and their families' and society's lives.

For me, the understanding that SaMud share, their care and sensitivity towards each other, the unsaid and unasked for things they do for each other or each other's families are love in its highest form.
Sorry if I sound crude but physical stuff is something that even animals do.

There is something different and sweeter in expression of love that humans are capable of.

This is why I love films like Pardes - in which here is a definite bond between SRK and Mahima from the beginning. He is protective about her. She also trusts him completely and finds ways to make him happy. But despite a definite attraction there is a limit they never cross. That's what makes it beautiful.

Even later it was he who fought for her, got beaten up for her but never touched her romantically. It was she who after taking everyone's permission ran after him and hugged him.

Love should also take each other's respect into account. Kumud should think kahin meri nazdeeki ki vajah se koi Saras pe ungli na uthaye. And Saras should think main apni wajah se kabhi kisi ko mauka nahi dunga tum pe ungli uthane ka.

More than worrying about log kya kahenge. I wish they had been fiercely protective about each other - ki hum kisi ko mauka hi nahi denge apne priye par ungli uthane ka ya usko dukhi karne ka!

And I am more vocal about this due to the conservative area in which Kumud lives.
Otherwise why would I care? I'd have left behind my own views while judging them.

On a totally logical level I find these romantic scenes just deliberately inserted to lure viewers, increase TRPs and drag the story.

@MaryBarton - First of all thank you very much for disagreeing so peacefully and rationally! I loved your way of expressing difference in POV and subjectivity in interpretation of morality!

👏

All I can say bout myself is that I can tolerate rebellion, freedom of shattering all boundaries in any other area except sex. Maybe that's due to my background, beliefs and upbringing. And also because I feel when it comes to getting physical as I told arshicritic, the area becomes blurry. That attraction might be love for the individuals but for someone else looking at them it may even be interpreted as lust or deviant behaviour. This is why I remarked what would have happened if someone else had seen them like this and instead of Guman or Yash's mom, some villager from that conservative village had come shouting at VC's house and bashed him, his family and their daughter? Already we have been shown that the village pundit considers most of Kumud'd deeds as "dusahas". He and others like him in that conservative area would have exploded by now if they had seen SaMud in that
waist scene at Ilaben's house or other physical proximity scenes in fields or barns.

@Hotdogg:

Probably the best post I read on Saras' mindset in these matters of love and attraction! God insight into his probable psyche. ⭐️

That makes more sense to me.

But I would point out one thing:

Saras seems to throw his logic aside and thinks mostly from past POV and his own fears about himself and ones who are beloved to him.

It is not Kumud who gave him confusing signals. It is he who created the entire confusion with his letter and his absolute NO even without seeing her. Even now it is HE himself who is fuelling the confusion, creating difficulties for Kumud and worsening his own inner conflict by refusing to reveal to Kumud why he said NO to her in first place! 😕

If he cannot open up to Kumud then at least open up to Dugba about his fears and apprehensions! She will find a solution for him or counsel him.

His growing physical closeness to Kumud YET not even changing his NO to a YES and removing all possibilities of doubts on his and Kumud's character and relation - are worsening things for him and bringing pain for Kumud, making her and her family vulnerable to BS by not just Guman or Yash's mom but even the village.

Foolish thing is that he'll take Kumud's reaction as another example of how he always brings pain to those he loves or that how he can't get close to anyone thanks to his (as he thinks) "cursed fate".

Not that I do not understand his childhood trauma and unresolved need for unconditional affection. I understand his conflict and pain but why does ot confide about it or try to resolve it? And if he cannot bring himself to resolve this inner conflict then why get physical with Kumud if he does not intend to marry her?

I'd have understood his inability to hold himself back after Kumud broke barriers of self built defenses. A few physical proximity scenes are okay. But it was getting excessive now and especially more questionable given how he himself regretted his action of her holding her waist.

On some levels it is Kumud's fault also for not telling him how his actions are bringing taunts to her and giving both Guman and Yash's mom a chance to malign her character!

Instead of giving silent treatment why doesn't she confront him once and for all and ask him - "Why do you get close to me if you do not want to marry me?! And if you really feel an ehsaas between us and care for me so much then why don't you change your decision and say a YES to marry me?!"

Even yesterday she should have immediately cut in and asked - "Hum apne rishte ko koi naam kyun nahi de sakte?!"

To make him come clear, she should have proceeded to say, "Tum yeh kyun nahi sochte ki bina naam wale iss ehsaas ki vajah se mujhe kya sehna padh raha hai? Tumhari chuppi hum dono ke liye dard ka karan ban rahi hai?"

Or I wish Dugba had overheard their convo and separately counseled both of them, lending them an ear and making both of them confide their fears to her.

Look the exploration of complex emotions is nice but all viewers are not going to tolerate the dragging.

And it is we who relate Saras' condition to his mom's suicide. Whereas serial does not show Saras recalling her suicide or thinking to himself that he loses everyone he loves.

This is why I said in my opening post in this thread that those who do not think deep or connect the dots are bound to feel they are creating drama out of nothing.

Logically it is a conflict hat can be resolved in two episodes flat with a heart to heart convo between SaMud or with Dugba as a moderator or guide.

But the show is dragging it a lot.

Worst is that they are not taking help of flashbacks to show cause of inner turmoil in Saras.

Aise toh nahi chalega. It is becoming a test of patience now as a viewer. It is good to move step by step but please take proper step instead of going around in circles or taking a mere baby step even if you decide to take a step!

We are here to watch a story. Not just here to see art, romance and try to derive probable symbolism in scenes.

I still stand by the view that SC is over-stretching this "milke bhi na miley" thing without any proper explanation of why leads or others in show behave the way they behave!

@skepblun - I totally loved reading this post 😊. this is the best topic I have ever read over IF. please continue writing such posts.