Does Bhakti justify tampering w/ scriptures?

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Gosia

@vedantka

Beginner

Posted: 13 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
So the gopi incident that they showed b4 the Mahabharata track - the one where Krishna gets their feet dust for his head - the messenger there was actually Uddhav, rather than Akrura?

Uddhav was sent by Krishn to gopis and Krishn's parents with a message but in actuality it was Krishn's way to educate Uddhav through gopis and to grace him with divine prem.

The incident with Krishn's headache and the need of foot dust from some devotee to cure it, was a different one and it was meant to teach the Dwarkadheesh's queens the difference between their love for Krishn(which has a touch of self interest) and 100% selfless love of gopis whose happiness was ONLY in seeing Krishn happy, with no rules or regulations as prem is above all dharmas.

The ultimate goal of all Vedic Scriptures is to awaken and enhance the desire for devotion in human hearts and minds and because we are so different, the scriptures take it into account and show many different ways but the ultimate goal remains the same for every mayic soul as there is no other way to be freed from the clutches of Maya than by the Grace of God for which bhakti is a must.
Devotion(=loving remembrance of chosen form of God) can be done in one of 5 modes:
-as a subject towards a king (this can be practiced towards all forms of God, like Shiva, Vishnu, Durga , Ram or Krishn as Dwarkadheesh),
-as a servant to his beloved master (this type of devotion can be done only to Krishn=Dwarkadheesh or Ram),
-as a friend (again only to Krishn(Dwarkadheesh or gopala) or Ram)),
-as a parent( to Krishn or Ram),
-as a beloved (only to Krishn; as a wife to Krishn =Dwarkadheesh or as a gopi to Krishn =gopala).

Krishn's lilas are endless and they are performed simultaneously on countless earthly planets in countless universes.

😊For people who are into bhakti😊, the mood of the episodes will be the most important , not how accurate it is according to the scriptures as long as personality of Krishn is presented correctly and the intentions are proper.
Even now we have few genuine saints living on our Earth and they know some lilas that we may never heard about. So here Uddhav was originally portrayed in Shreemad Bhagavatam in a certain way but in other lila in another universe Uddhav may play a bit different character with the same purpose of giving a lesson to human souls that bhakti and prem are supreme to any other spiritual achievement.

My guruji says that if we focus our attention on anything regarding divine lilas with a devotional attitude, this will purify our minds from mayic/material attachments but if we read, watch, talk or think about the same lilas with a critical mind , it will only add to our mayic attachments as it will become only intellectual/material entertainment .

😊I share these thoughts for those who are into devotion 😊but I do NOT mean to criticize your discussions here as they do provide o lot of very valuable information and insight, they are really really great and done in a very polite/cultured way. I truly enjoy them and I learn lot of very interesting details regarding the original stories. Thank you all !😃

Radhey Radhey!❤️❤️❤️

Edited by vedantka - 13 years ago

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

@ Vedantka,

My replies in Blue

Originally posted by: vedantka

😊For people who are into bhakti😊, the mood of the episodes will be the most important , not how accurate it is according to the scriptures as long as personality of Krishn is presented correctly and the intentions are proper.

If each Tom, Dick and Harry decide to direct and telecast their own version of Krishna Lila, where will it end? A jeans and T- shirt clad Krishna / Ram ? Will we then argue that, anyway, no one knows what people wore in Dwapara Yuga ?

Was it all right on the part of Sagar productions to have replaced Rukmimi with Jambvanti in the Tulabharam incident? Can anything be justified in the name of 'bhakti' and 'prem?" Do our ancient scriptures then have no sanctity? If tomorrow, the Sagar Productions decide to replace Arjuna with Sudama during the Gitopadesha , will you still condone it, saying that the content is more important ?

Sorry,I am a very very staunch Hindu, and for me, maintaining the sanctity of the sacred scriptures which have nourished and sustained this great religion, are of paramount importance.

Even now we have few genuine saints living on our Earth and they know some lilas that we may never heard about. So here Uddhav was originally portrayed in Shreemad Bhagavatam in a certain way but in other lila in another universe Uddhav may play a bit different character with the same purpose of giving a lesson to human souls that bhakti and prem are supreme to any other spiritual achievement.

I don't mind if the Creatives deviate from Srimad Bhagavtham, but be consistent with any one scripture. As I see, the Sagar Productions re writing Krishna's life and -in my opinion,- they do not rank higher than Vyasa, Jaimineya or Garga.

My guruji says that if we focus our attention on anything regarding divine lilas with a devotional attitude, this will purify our minds from mayic/material attachments but if we read, watch, talk or think about the same lilas with a critical mind , it will only add to our mayic attachments as it will become only intellectual/material entertainment .

Does your Guruji's advice also apply to the Lila currently being woven by Saga Productions? If you read my posts carefully, I have never ever analyzed any Krishna- lila critically or analytically; I only compare what is being shown on TV with what is there in Srimad Bhagavatham or Hari Vamsa- which -whether you agree or not- are the original store houses of Krishna Lila.

😊I share these thoughts for those who are into devotion

Does ' being into devotion' mean accepting whatever crap Sagar Productions are showing in the name of prem and bhakti?

😊but I do NOT mean to criticize your discussions here as they do provide o lot of very valuable information and insight, they are really really great and done in a very polite/cultured way. I truly enjoy them and I learn lot of very interesting details regarding the original stories. Thank you all !😃
Allow me give you one piece of advice- (and I am sure your guruji will concur with me) Please read the original texts as far as possible. Most of them are available online (with English Translations). No doubt TV serials are doing a commendable job, but they fall woefully short.
And of course, not everyone has to be interested in bhakti as yet.😉

If 'Bhakti' in this sense means accepting the Sagar productions' version over Vyasa's I would rather not be interested at all.
Radhey Radhey!❤️❤️❤️

Edited by varaali - 13 years ago

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

I also wanted to mention the furore caused when Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code ' was published, but perhaps I would have invited the moderator's censure hence I refrained from going into it.

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Gosia

@vedantka

Beginner

Posted: 13 years ago

Dear Varaali,

What I meant to say is that once I decide to watch anything regarding Krishna, I'm trying to enjoy it, once the limits are crossed beyond my level of tolerance(my personal understanding what is appropriate and what is not), I'll not watch it any more as I don't want to drag myself into negativity. There are enough negative things in life, why should I upset myself because of some movie?
I have no power to influence SP in any way so why to frustrate myself about something I cannot change?

I know that SP is not very faithful to original scriptures but have they ever promised to be so or that is the way they are expected to be by the viewers in India?
Probably, the second as you are very passionate about it.

I like the discussion on this forum because it helps me to learn a lot of details about the original Krishna's story but somehow it does not disturb me that SP does not stick to this original version even if I absolutely agree that the scriptures cannot be "improved " by anyone, that's for sure.

Maybe it is my personal character that I approach this serial with some enthusiasm or maybe it is my ignorance towards what is appropriate according to Shree Krishn's expectations.
I just see that I feel simply good after watching many of the episodes, I feel like smiling, it brightens my day so it has a positive impact on me, it helps me to imagine Krishn as my own friend.
I see a lot of purity in portraying Krishn here, maybe because we will never find something like that in any Western movie and I'm quite new to Indian devotional serials.

I'm truly sorry to upset you. It was not my intention at all to create such an energy! Sorry again😊

And bhakti means for me accepting the fact that ONLY Krishna is truly mine, no one else and I ONLY belong to Him and to no one else. So I differ between bhakti and intellectual activities, that's all.

Jai Shree Krishn !!!

Edited by vedantka - 13 years ago

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

Originally posted by: vedantka

The ultimate goal of all Vedic Scriptures is to awaken and enhance the desire for devotion in human hearts and minds

The ultimate goal of all Vedic sciptures is to not to awaken devotion, but to realize the Brahman. Enquire into the nature of Self, and Atman and through that realize the Brahman. Devotion is merely the first step.

The first words in the Brahma Sutras are "Athaato Brahma Jigyaasaa..." (Now let's enquire about the brahman...).

The following is from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

Atma va are drashtavya srotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyah: "O, Maitreyi, it is the Atman that is to be beheld; it is the Atman that is to be known; it is the Atman that is to be searched for; it is the Atman which is to be heard about; it is the Atman which is to be thought in the mind; it is the Atman which is to be meditated upon. There is nothing else worthwhile thinking, nothing else worthwhile possessing, because nothing worthwhile exists, other than This."

Maitreyi atmano va are darsanena sravanena matya vijyanenedam sarvam viditam: "If you can grasp the significance of what this Atman is, you have known everything; and then, you have possessed everything; you have become all things. There is nothing left to desire afterwards. And if this is not to be achieved, what is going to be your fate?

Edited by varaali - 13 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

I've spawned the above discussion into a new thread b'cos while it's a legitimate discussion in its own right, it's somewhat tangential to the thread about Udhav, which is supposed to shed light about what the scriptures say about him, vs what is shown in the serial. I've therefore moved the discussion about bhakti and whether the Sagars are justified in showing simply whatever they feel like to this thread, while leaving the original one about Udhav open to discussions about Udhav.

Vedantika & Varaali

Please feel free to continue that discussion here, separately from the one about Udhav himself.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

One thing the Sagars have done in this serial is move Krishna's childhood life to his adult life, making it look like seriousness was something alien to Krishna, and it was all about fun & love. But Krishna almost always took a no-nonsense approach to things. When Paundrak sent him a messenger demanding those accessories, Krishna & the Dwarka court had a good laugh, but after that, Krishna bluntly told the messenger to tell Paundrak that he'd rid the world of him. He then went to Karusa, fought & destroyed Paundrak's army, and then killed him & Kashiraj. Nowhere was there any queen Tara dragging this out for weeks.

This, as well as Krishna's excessive flute playing - something that he apparently didn't do after he left Radha - was something that I find excruciatingly boring. Dwelling in this serial on Radha & the gopis, while getting rid of Rukmini & now Satyabhama - just turns me off.

Another thing - contrary to what this serial shows, Krishna was not a pacifist, as the first few episodes of this serial, as well as the track on Paundrak tried to suggest. Normally, in real life, there are 2 schools of thought - pacifism, and just war, and Krishna was squarely on the side of just war. The only war that he tried to ever prevent was the Kurukshetra war, and that too was mainly due to Yudhisthir wishing to avoid a war that would force him to treat family elders like Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa & Bhurishrava as enemies. Otherwise, Krishna was squarely in favor of just wars, and nothing buttresses that better than the Gita. And never did he give his enemies an unlimited number of chances to reform (only exception was Sishupala, due to his promise to his aunt)

The other major thing about Krishna - in the Gita, Krishna clearly told Arjun that very few people are blessed enough to see his divine form, but he showed it to Arjun alone. But in this serial, he shows it to all & sundry - Sudama, Susheela, Tara, Kunti, and anyone else who simply asks. Nothing betrays a gross misunderstanding of him more than this one, where what is depicted clearly violates what is written in the Gita, and where none of the books about him have him showing even his viraatroop to anybody, much less anybody asking for it.

All serials have been guilty of distorting things that are in the epics & scriptures, so I can't single out this one. But this one is unique in that it manages to get Krishna's messages largely wrong, while projecting its own viewpoints on him, which is a lot more indigestible.

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Aradhana

@Aradhana87

Voyager

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

@Vrish I agree with you. During Pondrak track I felt SP portrayed Shri Krishna way too partial towards Pondrak. I felt that he was tolerating everything just to make Pondrak a good person. I know that Shri Ram gave Ravan few chances to make amends but Pondrak got more than few chances. I can understand that shri krishn did not want to hurt Tara-as per this serial- but there is an extent of sins. In hindi they say paap ka ghada jab bhar jaata hai to phoot jaata hai. I think when Pondrak misbehaved with those gopis it was too much. Pondrak trying to kill citizens was tolerated by SP shri krishn. I skipped those episodes and watched from the episode where pondrak gets killed. I think Shri Krishn motivated people to fight injustice. In my opinion Pondrak was injust so why not fight him after giving him few chances to change.

Also in the initial episodes with that boy who could not walk I found SP portrayal of Shri Krishn weak. I could not understand why a citizen of Dwarika does not like Shri Krishn and even after the boys mother pleading for Shri Krishnas help, it takes a long time for her to recieve it, as the woman being a devotee of shri krishn. I did not get the message of this track.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

Originally posted by: Aradhana87
@Vrish I agree with you. During Pondrak track I felt SP portrayed Shri Krishna way too partial towards Pondrak. I felt that he was tolerating everything just to make Pondrak a good person. I know that Shri Ram gave Ravan few chances to make amends but Pondrak got more than few chances. I can understand that shri krishn did not want to hurt Tara-as per this serial- but there is an extent of sins. In hindi they say paap ka ghada jab bhar jaata hai to phoot jaata hai. I think when Pondrak misbehaved with those gopis it was too much. Pondrak trying to kill citizens was tolerated by SP shri krishn. I skipped those episodes and watched from the episode where pondrak gets killed. I think Shri Krishn motivated people to fight injustice. In my opinion Pondrak was injust so why not fight him after giving him few chances to change.

Aradhana, fully agree w/ you. In the original story, there was no Krishna giving Paundrak any #chances, so why put that here? If the serial wanted to show Krishna in that light, why not do it w/ someone who actually did have such opportunities - Sishupala? Or in the Mahabharata track, do it w/ Duryodhan - even though Duryodhan was consistently spared @ the behest of Yudhisthir, the serial could have spun it as Krishna taking credit for giving Duryodhan chances to reform, and abusing them @ every opportunity - from the attempted murder of Bhima to the war. That too would have strayed, but it wouldn't have been anything as wild as what they showed in the Paundrak track.

But in the original Paundrak story, there was nothing about him being injust or a tyrant, and his citizens started voluntarily worshipping him, for whatever reason. In the ACK, they describe Paundrak as being among the allies of Jarasandha who was defeated by Balarama, and so got depressed, & the people started worshipping him to cheer him up. Of course, he overdid it by sending an insulting message to Krishna, demanding his accessories, and Krishna @ the first encounter slew him and his ally Kashiraj.

Originally posted by: Aradhana87
Also in the initial episodes with that boy who could not walk I found SP portrayal of Shri Krishn weak. I could not understand why a citizen of Dwarika does not like Shri Krishn and even after the boys mother pleading for Shri Krishnas help, it takes a long time for her to recieve it, as the woman being a devotee of shri krishn. I did not get the message of this track.

I never got the whole deal about the boy either. In those times, the rulers would see to it that nobody in the kingdom was in need, so it was surprising that there was no needy person in the kingdom except Amod. Honestly, given how rich a collection of tribes were there around Ugrasena - the Vrishnis, the Bhojas/Andhakas, the Satwatas and so on, they could have introduced lead chieftains from all these groups and had their affairs been the subject of daily court, when Krishna wasn't busy against Jarasandha, Sishupala or anybody else.

In fact, by now, we should have been into the foundation of Indraprastha and the killing of Jarasandha. Wonder whether they are ever going to get that far, or will another PH (not Sagars) do a new serial on Krishna starting from after the Syamantaka gem episodes?

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

#10

Namrata

I responded to that in this thread - see here Speaking of which, I moved the 2 posts in that thread to this one, which is one place where we discuss Krishna's family.

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Does Bhakti justify tampering w/ scriptures?

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