Debate Contest: What Would You Do? (DM-REMIX)

Hello DeMons.

Welcome to the first debate contest of 2010. The first debate contest is now open. Anyone and everyone is welcome to participate. Everyone will be on their own and will present their own arguments.

Topic:

Before you were born, God gave you a choice to pick your place of birth. The choices are

a) USA
b) India

There's a condition attached.

If it is USA, you would be born to a long time committed lesbian couple in a moderate town. If it is India, you would be born to a single unwed mom in a small town. In both cases father is completely out of the picture.

Time period of being born is nineties, when society still had strong sense of taboo. Otherwise income, lifestyle etc is middle class. In todays age you would in be somewhere in pre-teen to teens or so.

Which life would you choose and why? Why is your choice of life better than the other?

The contest will run for ten days till 06/05. I will post when the contest is closed.

Judgment:

The credit for the original topic goes to Mister. K, who was originally supposed to help judge this contest. Unfortunately he has withdrawn. The remixed topic is my idea. I will be judging and have contacted a few other members regarding judgment who will be anonymous guides from the Force. But see the scoring considerations

Some Scoring Considerations:

Content of posts, rather than number of posts

Who was the first to bring up a point

How consistent and coherent someone is in supporting their points

How well they challenge and/or refute points made by others

Impress with logic and argument, not conforming to the judges past viewpoints. 😛

Hints to get started:

What will society be more accepting off?

What provides a better growing atmosphere?

How has each society evolved?

What will be more challenging for current day kids?

Any moral implications?

Reminder:

Just to remind contestants that COC is applicable at all times.

*IMPORTANT: Members please note that this thread is for the debate contest only. Please do not post post in this thread unless you are participating and do not disrupt the debate with your own opinions and comments etc. Once the contest is closed, I will update the title and then everyone will be free to post and discuss. In the meantime you may read the discussion and 'like' arguments and posts or jump in the contest if you dare. *

I will post something when I am done with MOTW business and that deadline (31st) I mentioned before in MOTW thread.

Can questions regarding the debate be asked here, or should it be sent in PMs to the judges?

Originally posted by: PhoeniXof_Hades

Can questions regarding the debate be asked here, or should it be sent in PMs to the judges?

You can ask questions here for judges to answer. Maybe other contestants have questions.

Alright, I have updated the topic regarding some concerns about the previous topic. Hopefully, this is more appealing to some people who need more heated religious and moral issues to debate on.

Having experienced life first hand in both India and USA and observing the social mindset closely in both countries, I would choose the middle class long time committed lesbian couple in a moderate town in USA as my family over a single unwed mother in a small Indian town. Despite the social taboos related to same sex couples in the US (especially the 90's), I feel this choice provides me a better life - both emotionally and economically.

True that America and especially small town folks in America still look down upon the same sex couples and discriminate against them. However, American society was not and is not plagued with other social issues like casteism. By late 1960's, even racism was on its way out and blacks were on their way to get accepted and integrated in American society. Hence, the only major problem faced by my family is the sexual orientation of my parents. We never had to worry about us being dalits or tribals or scheduled caste - other serious stigmas India is dealing with to date.

Talking about the social structure - another important difference between US and India is how society perceives an individual. American society does not bother much about one's family name, father's occupation, brother's education etc. The emphasis is more on the individual than the whole enchilada that individual comes with. Hence, despite my parents' sexual orientation, we never had to worry about my aunts staying spinsters all their lives or my uncles not finding a suitable match because my parents brought the shame on the entire family! Unlike India, we never had to worry about the repercussions on our entire clan as the "shame" (for lack of a better term) was more my parents' than their family's. Our extended family was never shunned by the society which is so not the case for my counterpart. A single unwed mother in a small Indian town not only sets tongues waging but also brings down shame on her entire clan.

One of the constraints in this debate is the absentee father. Well, I'll still have two loving parents as opposed to the single one on the other side. That makes the three of us (assuming I am the only child) dealing with the social pressure instead of just the two on the other side. This, I feel, is the biggest plus point on emotional and financial security of any child on my side of the debate.

Unfortunately, most single moms happen to be the ones jilted by their lovers. In some cases, the child is the end-result of an "accident" or a moment of uncontrolled passion. Unlike my counterpart, I never got the feeling that I am the cause of my mother's plight - that if I was not born, she would not have been stigmatized and shunned by the society. The feeling of getting deserted by one's parent even before one's birth could be excruciatingly painful and emotionally challenging. In my case, both my parents were involved in the decision to bring me into this world. I was born out of love and commitment. No matter how harsh society can get on my parents' sexual orientation --- my parents' commitment to each other and to me can't be doubted. Additionally, no one can blame me for my parents' choices (and their plight in the 90's).

Apart from the above mentioned plus points, I also feel that America offers a far better infra structure, law & order, healthcare and educational opportunities than India does. Assuming I am an average teen like my Indian counterpart - I have access to better educational facilities (including free schooling from KG till 12th) and much higher chances of getting accepted in a major of my choice. The unemployment rate is also lower and living standard lot higher than a regular middle class Indian family --- one with both parents and every other societal norm working in their favor.

Looking forward and considering my career choice that will takes me all over the globe - an American passport makes globetrotting lot easier for me than an Indian passport would do for my counterpart. Many countries do not have visa requirements for American citizens. This is also one plus point of my choice.

I don't mind elaborating on all the plus points mentioned here if anyone has questions on them. There will be more to come in next few days. As of now, this is just a beginning.

madam mod, you raised an interesting qn about choice of life. call me idealist, call me simpleton, but i would choose to be born to the unwed mother in middle-class india. every time. not because it would be a life of convenience and toys R us, but because it would be a life with meaning. not because it would be a life coldly calculated, weighed, and selected as to cost-benefit, but because that would make me happier. see, my reasons are nowhere as structured and grounded in economics as Gauri's, but that's life for me- happiness, joy, love,even if it's mixed in with sadness and sacrifice.

as a child, our very existence, the meaning revolves around mom. to have endured all that she must have, she had to have wanted me desperately, loved me beyond all else. without her man by her side, going against all established norms, nine months of discomfort, sacrifice, birthing pains, the barbs and innuendos from strangers and wicked aunts throughout- can you imagine love and sacrifice greater than hers? can the love of Gauri's lesbian couple ever come close? in terms of emotional benefits, what more does a child need than the mother of my life? Gauri mentions emotional well-being, but i feel the analytical routine in her life makes it more calculating than emotional. Not what a child yearns for.

the need to find meaning in terms of one's roots is eternal. it grows stronger as we grow older. adopted kids sooner or later want to find out about their biological parents. we hanker after many things in our lives, but ultimately we get around to the deep-rooted need to find the spiritual side of our existence. obama trekked across to africa to find out. oprah too. in my case, my mom is my biological mother. i know who she is. i know my roots. i know the odds she faced so that i could come into being. i feel special knowing how much she wanted me. i will never feel the emptiness of not knowing who i am and where i came from in my life, never the feeling that i was somewhere abandoned. I feel sorry for Gauri in that regard.

as for her entire economic opportunity argument, first, that does not necessarily lead to a better "life". we'd have to really get into what we want out of life to answer that. but even assuming economic well-being contributes to life's meaning, how reasonable is gauri's scenario? the lesbian couple's kid making use of opportunities to work hard and get ahead, is not typical. the reality is that middle class everywhere is essentially the same. middle class kids in india too can get ahead. in fact, many do, as evidenced by the hordes of middle-class indians who come to america and become successful. typical middle class america actually can be poorly educated about the world, lack basic survival skills except in their local neighborhood, have too much of a provincial mindset to be able to deal with the high-tech world that we're getting to, starting to fall behind on mortgages, working over-time at two jobs and not having enough time for herself, never thinkin they have as much as Jones' to be happy, truly happy. see you dont have to be born in america to do well, when you can have your indian mom's love and still come to america. the way Gauri had it made it seem she was talkin about the average immigrant's experience in america, not middle class american born.

on balance, we have it in our means to do something about our economic condition whichever middle-class we come from. but a mother? a mother who wanted us so much that she underwent the greatest trials to have us? there's nothing we can do there. it's the destiny we never get to choose. if we dont have one, we aint getting one. a loss greater than a mother we never know i cannot imagine. if you have her, cherish her and the life with her.every time.

Originally posted by: cuckoocutter

madam mod, you raised an interesting qn about choice of life. call me idealist, call me simpleton, but i would choose to be born to the unwed mother in middle-class india. every time. not because it would be a life of convenience and toys R us, but because it would be a life with meaning. not because it would be a life coldly calculated, weighed, and selected as to cost-benefit, but because that would make me happier. see, my reasons are nowhere as structured and grounded in economics as Gauri's, but that's life for me- happiness, joy, love,even if it's mixed in with sadness and sacrifice.

Economics happens to be just one part of my post. No one can deny US' superiority when it come's to economic conditions.

as a child, our very existence, the meaning revolves around mom. to have endured all that she must have, she had to have wanted me desperately, loved me beyond all else.

With all due respect to your mom - may be she was past that stage where abortion was feasible and was forced to carry you full term. This is often the case with single unwed mothers in India's small towns. They are ignorant hence they get stuck with a fetus. Often, they do not come out in open or talk to anyone about it due to social stigma. By the time their condition is evident, it's too late for abortion. I would think twice before getting all fuzzy wuzzy over being "wanted".

without her man by her side, going against all established norms, nine months of discomfort, sacrifice, birthing pains, the barbs and innuendos from strangers and wicked aunts throughout- can you imagine love and sacrifice greater than hers? can the love of Gauri's lesbian couple ever come close?

What makes you doubt the love of lesbian parents for their offspring? Just because they have each other, unlike your mother's case where the significant other just vanished into thin air, does not make their parental love any less than what your mother has for you - or, who knows - eventually forced herself to have for you.


in terms of emotional benefits, what more does a child need than the mother of my life? Gauri mentions emotional well-being, but i feel the analytical routine in her life makes it more calculating than emotional. Not what a child yearns for.

Sounds more like selective perception. The socioeconomic advantages US has over India can't be ignored. No where did I say that they replace emotional well being. A child yearns for both parents and I have that already.

the need to find meaning in terms of one's roots is eternal. it grows stronger as we grow older. adopted kids sooner or later want to find out about their biological parents. we hanker after many things in our lives, but ultimately we get around to the deep-rooted need to find the spiritual side of our existence. obama trekked across to africa to find out. oprah too. in my case, my mom is my biological mother. i know who she is. i know my roots. i know the odds she faced so that i could come into being. i feel special knowing how much she wanted me. i will never feel the emptiness of not knowing who i am and where i came from in my life, never the feeling that i was somewhere abandoned. I feel sorry for Gauri in that regard.


Why are you assuming that my mother is not my biological mom? A lesbian woman is as capable of procreating as any heterosexual woman.

Additionally, you are forgetting that you have all the insecurities you listed above when it comes to your father who never cared enough, was not careful enough and chose deserting you and your mom than staying with you - it can permanently scar a child's emotional health.

Please don't feel sorry for me. As I pointed out before, both my parents had me because they both wanted me --- not because they got stuck with me. Being an accident or a mistake in heat can really mess with a child's mind. My heartfelt condolences to you for dealing with this insecurity day in and day out. May God give you the strength to come to terms with the rejection from your biological father.

_______________________________________________


as for her entire economic opportunity argument, first, that does not necessarily lead to a better "life". we'd have to really get into what we want out of life to answer that. but even assuming economic well-being contributes to life's meaning, how reasonable is gauri's scenario? the lesbian couple's kid making use of opportunities to work hard and get ahead, is not typical. the reality is that middle class everywhere is essentially the same. middle class kids in india too can get ahead. in fact, many do, as evidenced by the hordes of middle-class indians who come to america and become successful.



typical middle class america actually can be poorly educated about the world, lack basic survival skills except in their local neighborhood, have too much of a provincial mindset to be able to deal with the high-tech world that we're getting to, starting to fall behind on mortgages, working over-time at two jobs and not having enough time for herself, never thinkin they have as much as Jones' to be happy, truly happy. see you dont have to be born in america to do well, when you can have your indian mom's love and still come to america. the way Gauri had it made it seem she was talkin about the average immigrant's experience in america, not middle class american born.

on balance, we have it in our means to do something about our economic condition whichever middle-class we come from. but a mother? a mother who wanted us so much that she underwent the greatest trials to have us? there's nothing we can do there. it's the destiny we never get to choose. if we dont have one, we aint getting one. a loss greater than a mother we never know i cannot imagine. if you have her, cherish her and the life with her.every time.

Neither can I - be it a mother or a father who should have been there but is not. Rejection from ANY parent is hard to adjust to for any child.

Thank God I have the mother's love in double dose and I never had to deal with being rejected by a biological parent.

Will get back to your take on economics later with some stats. I see some gaping holes in your claims there.

P.S. edited to fix the font color.

i look forward to your response Gauri. meanwhile, let me address some of the points RTH hinted at.

what will society be more accepting of? superficially? america. but think again if you're living in the bible belt. people there blow up abortion clinics, consider gay couples as people living in sin, they are that rigid and fanatical in their thinking. that dont sound very accepting to me. on the other hand, shame is what drives indian society. folks will feel ashamed to have their daughter raise a child out of wedlock. either way, acceptance will not be easy.

now switch forward in time as the kid grows to teen years, the situation we have at hand. let's even assume we are out of the bible belt and living in san francisco or madison, the bastions of liberalism. but even there, the surface acceptance is really a malaise that masks american ambivalence when it comes to human interaction. people just dont care what the next person is up to (that is when they do not care enough to blow up clinics). good you might say since it would allow you to fly under the radar in your lesbianism. but think again, is that really better than the indian way? i dont think so. it lacks the family fabric that gives so much depth to the indian middle class family life. i can even imagine my grandparents being angry when my mom decided to raise me. but those very same people will likely be my greatest support, start loving me when i have grown up, the beacons guiding me to a better life. indian society can be more knee-jerk harsh in that way, but ultimately it's more loving and forgiving. why'd i give that up for anything?

as for what provides a better growing atmosphere, for me that's definitely the indian life. middle class india is usually extended family. where Gauri has her lesbian parents caring for her, i got my grandparents and extended family taking care of my smallest whims, she's got her lesbian parents who have time for me when they're not engaged. see there is a difference between a prime-time show view of a lesbian life, and the real thing.

in terms of how society has evolved and what would be easier for kids today, i think indian society has become more progressive, social taboos have been breaking down at a faster clip in indian with greater economic prosperity reaching the middle class, with women feeling more empowered. american society on the other hand has regressed. the freedom and the wild expression of the hippie generation has given way to more orthodoxy. as america has faltered in recent times, gone away has the reckless free-spiritidness, replaced by fear of the unknown, the outsider, the un-traditional.

on her last point about moral implications, personally i do not consider either situation immoral. but somehow i feel there is less moral ambiguity with the single mom. she went through hell because she wanted me. she did not compromise, she did not go finding a lesbian mate to tide her. i see principle, steadfastness, determination to face all odds, love that has driven the single mom- and i see those as great values to impart on a child.

hi Gauri, you had questions on the other thread that i thought were worth responding to. so at the risk of inviting your displeasure, or breaking some technical rule, i am taking the liberty of answering them while i have time. of course, if you think they were not meant for posting here, please then consider them as hypothetical only, that i choose to address on my own to clarify where i am coming from.

your question: Will the debate be judged on 'emotions" or "facts"?

my answer: i dont know how they will judge but i'll take my chances. if it was up to me, i'd say the question was about "life". i think without emotional content, there's not much to life, unless you're lookin for nirvana-under-the-tree kind of life (not that the USA does such a good job on the spiritual life either). are you?


your point: US provides better opportunities to excel in life even if someone's beginnings are humble or deviant from the norm

my response: excel how? if it's economic terms, then the middle-class teen in india can always come to america later and arbitrage away the american advantage you are touting. most nris in america have done precisely that. it also doesnt take much to come to america these days. just a course in computers. that so many indians choose to stay in india these days should provide some indication of how things really work in balance (and it's not just the economics you found in america).

also it depends on your standard of excellence. if you are aspiring for a middle class existence, starting at zero, yes, america can get you quickly up and running with your mortgaged tract home and leased car. but the reality is that while america can get you to a middle class existence starting fm zero, the transition to greater success is as hard as it is in india. for every person in america who rose to great heights fm nothing/ fm middle class, we can find a lal bahadur shastri or a narayan murthy. the fact is that in america, money still largely begets money. the cream of the crop at harvard is still moneyed kids (not the case in elite indian institutions). tie all this with the premise of the debate, where we are starting at middle class, not at zero, and then you'll see why a lot of what you have is irrelevant. consider also that america has always had a large middle class, but the numbers at the top have not increased much for generations. middle class by and large has stayed middle, in spite of the american opportunities you alluded to.

on other fronst too, if u are talking about excelling in terms of social relationships, then sorry, the american way of life actually sucks. there's more loneliness, divorce all that good stuff in america.


your point: India struggles with more socio-economic problems than US.

my response: does a teen in india deal with too many of these? in fact an indian teen leads more of a sheltered existence. and contrary to your point, the american kid has to deal with more peer pressure, teen pregnancies, drugs etc. It also cannot be easy mentally to be a middle-class kid in america when you can see so much affluence around, and where society views life more on materialistic terms. not so in india. middle class in india finds happiness in even the small things- the hordes of festivals, going out on simple occasions..indian culture and spirituality helps one deal with the frustrations of middle class existence better than in america. in fact, indians seem to thrive in spite of it, resplendent in their colors, in their carefree kite flying ways, in their ability to turn any street into a playground, any mundane occasion into a musical antakshari..


your fact - India has a poor record of safeguarding women's dignity in public places than US.

my response: hmm is this all to be a USA versus India debate? i thought we were talking about middle class teens in both countries.

however, assuming you are talking about girl teens, i'd be more worried about getting raped in america than having one's dignity upheld. the horrible stats in america in that regard stand for themselves.

your point: Now, if someone comes and makes a case based SOLELY on emotions - what should I do?

my response: i am sorry Gauri if that's how you viewed it. i'd hoped you'd be able to see the simple beauty of the life i chose. to your point, for me, a debate/ any valid communication is more than a plain recital of facts. it's how one presents those facts that often count for more. life is more than an audited accounting ledger of credits and debits. but why am i telling this to an esteemed IFer like yourself.

your concern: I can counter it but the other person can take it personally and attack me rather than my post - we saw that happening in sexual harasment thread already. I don't want that repeated in Debate contest so looking for some guidance here.

my response: please dont mix me for whoever you might have run into elsewhere Gauri. i assure u i am different :).