On Human nature that does not nurture

461075 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#1

In 1971 Prof. Philip Zimbardo conducted an experiment:

'A group of young men were rounded up by Palo Alto police and dropped off at a new jail -- in the Stanford Psychology Department. Strip searched, sprayed for lice and locked up with chains around their ankles, the "prisoners" were part of an experiment to test people's reactions to power dynamics in social situations. Other college student volunteers -- the "guards" -- were given authority to dictate 24-hour-a-day rules. They were soon humiliating the "prisoners" in an effort to break their will. The young men who played prisoners and guards revealed how much circumstances can distort individual personalities -- and how anyone, when given complete control over others, can act like a monster. "These guys were all peaceniks - the students chosen to be guards. They became like Nazis. It shows how easy it is for good people to become perpetrators of evil." So disturbing was the transformation that Zimbardo ordered the experiment abruptly ended.'

It's all part of human nature.
It's shown often enough. I did not break down to buy the DVD for Delhi-6. I waited until it aired on TV.
'Twas mostly tiresome with its staccato scene changes. Then, there it was ... I sat on the edge of my chair ... the petty constable lording it over the neighborhood [1]. A swipe here ... a smack there ... a slug or two ... no big deal ... complete impunity ... and the ensuing silence was deafening ...

We speak up loud often enough ... as soon as some sentiment (deeply entrenched by nurture [2]) has been assaulted ... raise arms ... pick up arms ... at each other's throats ... out for blood ... and yet ... and yet ... no coming together as comrades-in-arm against this kind of brutality ... at the same neighborhood level ... how long before that goon had been set down the path of the straight and narrow?

Were we all Zimbardos and order this kind of experiment stopped. For then our nature could be said to nurture.

[1] What a metamorphosis of the actor from his marigold-eating, love-sick 'wedding-planner' role in 'Monsoon Wedding'!

[2] The environment e.g. culture

Edited by SValeCalGal - 15 years ago

Created

Last reply

Replies

68

Views

6.2k

Users

14

Likes

7

Frequent Posters

return_to_hades thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 15 years ago
#2
The post above is talking about the Stanford Prison Experiments, one of the most infamous psychological experiments. Random undergraduate students were chosen for the experiment and were divided into roles of prisoners and wardens. The shocking result was that peaceful, mellow students assuming the roles of wardens became sadistic and tortured inmates. While prisoners began going crazy or developing anti-social behavior. The effects were so drastic that the experiment was called off. Dr. Zimbardo was the one who conducted these experiments.

It echoes similar thoughts like Lord of the Flies where chaos and barbarism manifests amidst the boys on the island. Or the Milgram Experiments, another controversial psychology experiment where subjects willingly gave other humans massive shocks simply because they were told by authority. A principle used by Nazis as well as some modern military leaders too get unquestioned obedience.

The discussion is about human nature - are we inherently evil - where our nature is cruel and sadistic that even the best of us easily fall prey to such behavior. Or are we inherently good - where our nature is not nurture protect and care for people?
*Woh Ajnabee* thumbnail
18th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#3
The Stanford Prison Experiments were extremely intriguing and unfortunately, a very disturbing representation of human nature. But despite what the experiments portrayed, I do not think that human nature is inherently evil. When given power, we may resort to misusing it, inflicting harm upon others, and fulfilling selfish goals. However, as we've all heard - 'with great power, comes great responsibility', and therefore, perhaps not all, but quite a few people out there use their power wisely and help instead of harm society. Without those individuals, throughout history, progress may not have been possible. Because regardless of how strong opinions are and how motivated people are, they all need a leader to carry them forward and to turn words into actions.

Power, I do not think is a bad thing, when in given in the right hands. The Stanford Prison Experiments focused on college students --- a group with perhaps a relatively lower level of maturity, and lack of experience. This was the perfect example of people getting carried away and misusing their power by hurting others. It was also a case of role play - the students that were asked to behave like jailors were actually attempting to display behavior they think must be deemed acceptable. They were then acting how they thought a jailor must act.

It is not the case that humans are inherently good or evil, in my opinion. Humans come onto this earth with a few inherent abilities, and the rest of which they must acquire through those around them. Nature nurtures us to a certain extent, but more than nature, it is those around us who nurture us the most and who help us grow. When babies are given birth, they are born with a few inherent abilities, but many potential abilities. Take the case of emotions, at birth, the child has the ability to feel many emotions, including the power to love, but it is not until he grows and is nurtured by those around him, that he realizes what love actually means --- what it means to love and to be loved. And for that you require more than just nature. Of course, in the end, it is both nature and nurture that contribute to each individual's personality and characteristics.

Ummm, I have no idea what I just wrote - if you made it this far, congrats. 😆
Summer3 thumbnail
18th Anniversary Thumbnail Trailblazer Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 15 years ago
#4
Sometimes human beings are more dangerous than animals. A son can even kill his entire family and feel no remorse.
Even now war crimes are rampant and the unforms worn by the army personnel and the terrorists turn them into heartless killing machines.
Even UN peacekeepers are committing crimes.
461075 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#5
Or the Milgram Experiments, another controversial psychology experiment where subjects willingly gave other humans massive shocks simply because they were told by authority. A principle used by Nazis as well as some modern military leaders too get unquestioned obedience.
I'll have to dig up from amongst the gazillion pages that litter every corner of my home (they're going to soon kick me out a la the Arab and his camel) ... but this was done across cultural/national lines and it was found that Germans were the most prone to unquestionably following authority ... may have been the same experiment (?) ...
Say Hades, for a midwestern 'peasant' where did you come to know about these experiments? What are you guys farming out there? 😆
Experiments focused on college students --- a group with perhaps a relatively lower level of maturity, and lack of experience.
I believe power plays manifest themselves very early on ... it isn't news that this kind of hierarchical, sadisitic behavior is endemic in prisons ... I also wonder about what criteria are used to quantify 'maturity' ...
Take the case of emotions, at birth, the child has the ability to feel many emotions, including the power to love,
No ... infants know no such thing as 'love' ... their 'survival instinct' is paramount ... there is a clear demarcation between emotion and feeling (Damasio has very persuasive arguments for this. He should, with his expertise in medicine and neurology) ... and remember, even with the right kind of 'nurture' (environment), if your nature (genome) does not permit, you will not acquire 'abilities' of any kind (which is why I'll never do bungee jumping ... I'm shit scared of heights 😆) ... sociopaths have been found to have decreased levels of activity in areas of the frontal cortex (which could be congenital, or caused by later brain damage) ...
With this post (and a few more to come), I am setting the stage for discussion on a topic that piqued my interest some time back ... I bring your attention to something I quoted from Galileo ... we must first master the symbols of a domain before we can understand it ... hence this 'staging' ...
in the end, it is both nature and nurture that contribute to each individual's personality and characteristics.
Yes and no ... evidently it is the 'interaction' between the two that determines behavior ... since I have recently become enamored with Sapolsky, of course I've been getting my hands on his books ... almost done with 'The Trouble with Testosterone' ... it's a compendium of fascinating essays about his work in behavioral biology ... makes one's head reel ...
Sometimes human beings are more dangerous than animals.
OK, Summer3-ji, first the 'lecture' 😊 human beings are animals (I assured my niece of that many moons ago - over her objections - by telling her she did not look like a plant to me) ... I agree with what you say, other than 'sometimes' since no other animal comes close to how callous we can be ... none!
438673 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#6


[HIDDEN CONTENT]
The content of this post has been Hidden by User.
SmarterDesiKid thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 15 years ago
#7
i woulda had more input in this but forget things i learned in psychology last year...i do remember watching the video (or a remake or sumtin) of the prison experiment....

what about that girl that was locked in the attick or sumtin...started with a G i think
she has sumtin to do with Nature Vs. Nurture
461075 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#8
I don't like the idea of using humans as guinea pigs. Any other animal for that matter
This is a dilemma ... and yet there is no easy way out ... I personally do not object to humans as 'guinea pigs' because in situations such as these experiments there was no coercion & the volunteers were adult ... we participate in 'psychological' experiments on a routine basis ... furthermore, at some point, we do need human participation in other areas - that's where, as an example, the double-blind method of determining a medicine's efficacy comes into play .... in contrast, while 'laboratory animals' have no say in the matter, a fair amount of regulation has been put in place to ensure that their treatment is 'humane'. A goodly portion of what we know today would have been completely unknowable without them.
However, like you, I still find it difficult to reconcile the use of other animals at all and if ever there were an intractable problem, surely this is one.
The genes that we're born with are self-regulating.
What do you mean 'self-regulating'? They too are subject to the environment ... too much radiation? Poof ... knock out a nucleotide or two and you're probably headed down unknown paths ... no corrective mechanism ...
They're designed to respond to different environments in different manners.
Over the course of millenia, yes ... were I to go live on the North Pole for the rest of my life, I'm not going to end up melanin-poor or hirsute before I die ... BTW, 'design' is not how we should be characterizing things (largely because of the 'intelligent design' group of loonies that are running amok in this country) ... natural selection is what dictates which genes are propagated ...
I believe that no one's born evil.
This is absolutely not true ... all psychopaths are not the product of only their environment ... but the operative word here is 'believe' ... we can believe (and do) all manner of 'stuff' to our's 'heart's content' without a shred of supporting evidence ... human brains are excellent confabulatory organs ... as an example, only until 2 days ago I had subscribed to the notion that testosterone is uniquely the cause behind aggression ... I now stand firmly disabused of that 'belief'
('The trouble with Testosterone' by Sapolsky) ... from the eponymous essay:
" ... high levels of testosterone and high levels of aggression still tend to go hand in hand. This would seem to seal the case - interindividual differences in levels of aggression among normal individuals are probably driven by differences in testosterone. But this turns out to be wrong. Okay, suppose you note a correlation between levels of aggression & levels of testosterone among normal males. This could be because (a) testosterone elevates aggression; (b) aggression elevates testosterone levels; (c) neither causes the other. There's a huge bias to assume option (a), while (b) is the answer.
.
.
Look at our confusing state: normal levels of testosterone are a prerequisite for normal levels of aggression, yet changing the amount of testosterone in someone's bloodstream withing the normal range doesn't alter his subsequent levels of aggressive behavior ... you need some amount of testosterone around for normal aggressive behavior - zero levels after castration, and down it usually goes; quadruple it and aggression typically increases.
.
.
We seem to have figured out a couple of things by now. First, knowing the differences in the levels of 't'. in the circulation of a bunch of males will not help you much figure out who is going to be aggressive. Second, the subtraction & reinstatement data seem to indicate that, nevertheless, in a broad sort of way, t causes aggressive behavior. But that turns out not to be true either, and the implications of this are lost on most people the first thirty times you tell them about it. Which is why yo had better tell them thirty-one times (😊)
.
.
There's a part of your brain that probably has lots to do with aggression, a region called the amygdala. Sitting right near it is the Grand Central Station of emotion-related activity in your brain, the hypothalamus by way of a cable of neuronal connections called the stria terminalis .... the amygdala has its influence on aggression via that pathway, with bursts of electrical excitation called action potentials that ripple down the stria terminalis, putting the hypothalamus in a pissy mood.
.
.
flood the area with t. ... the key thing is what doesn't happen next. Does t. now cause action potentials surging down the stria terminalis? Does it turn on that pathway? Not at all. If and only if the amygdala is already sending an aggression-provoking volley of action potentials down the stria terminalis, t. increases the rate of such action potentials by shortening the time between them. It's not turning on the pathway, it's increasing the volume of signaling if it is already turned on. It's not causing aggression, it's exaggerating the prexisiting pattern of it, exaggerating the response to environmental triggers of aggression'
the remaining essays are just as riveting ... I highly recommend him ... here's a video that is out-of-this-world (if you want to get a better feel for life in general and humans in particular):
Sure they work together but I doubt if genes and environment operate on a half-and-half ratio in everyone's body in the same darn manner.
Nobody claimed there was a 50/50 ratio ... or that the behavior was indistinguishable across any 2 humans (not even in identical twins) ...
413342 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago
#9

Originally posted by: SValeCalGal

natural selection is what dictates which genes are propagated ...



I have considerable investments ($$$) in a couple of bio-tech companies; I think I know a thing or two about genetics even though, professionally, I am a software guy. If this discussion turns too deep about nucleotides and nucleic acids, I am out.

To my understanding, natural selection acts on the physical characteristics (phenotypes) of an organism, not directly on genes. I think it's also well known that natural selection acts on populations and not on individuals. There is no "pressure" applied by natural selection that "forces" traits from one generation to next. Ultimately, heredity is what determines how traits are passed on from parents to offspring. A gene centered view of evolution makes more sense to me when it comes to explaining traits than natural selection itself.

Natural selection -> top down
Gene centered view of evolution -> inside out

If you had read my other posts, you know I am all about inside out.

My two cents.
debayon thumbnail
17th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 15 years ago
#10
^^ Mister K., genes are also often chosen by natural selection. For instance, take gene shuffling in the prophase stage of meiosis.The way that the chromatids are crossed over is based on natural selection. That is controlled by natural selection. And mutations are also based on natural selection. The Hardy-Weinberg Prinicple also states that the genetic frequency of a population remains constant unless natural selection(which is only one of the factors) acts on the population. So, consequently, you can deduce that natural selection does affect gene pool of populations.

Related Topics

Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".