Why pan-India films have problematic love tracks? - Page 3

Originally posted by: trouble_006

@blue : I agree that there is a section of women who love watching this play out. Though, if you go ahead and replace this hero with an average looking guy (can't happen in movies but imagine it happens in TV shows), you'll see no one gushing about it. Put 'hot' scenes with an Adarsh good looking hero, women would still watch it.

And in case of Austen, even her most celebrated hero 'Darcy' was just arrogant. Not abusive. And he goes and fixes himself up after realising his faults. The heroine doesn't accept him when he's arrogant , neither does she 'change' him. The onus is on him and not the heroine. Same with Wentworth in Persuasion. He's kind and honorable and a gentleman who fixes his raita.

@bold: This assumption that women have this innate urge is what I believe the original quote (which started this conversation between us) was talking about.

It's a male fantasy that it's every women's fantasy to see such things on screen. Especially the normalisation of abuse as a typical 'bad boy behaviour'. There's only a handful of them who might enjoy it (I grudgingly agree) . Give us more options like we get in literary world (there are whole lot of popular heroes not just the bad boys), then you'll get to see more diverse results.

@bold

Brilliantly put.👏

It's the sweeping generalization that all women love these scenes => therefore these scenes exist in cinema is mind-boggling.

Originally posted by: diasingh2

I also respect you opinion Nathu ji.

There's obviously a section of women that enjoy and love drooling over these characters because the actors are hot.

But you really want us to believe that filmmakers of these big films like KGF and Bahubali, write these scenes keeping teenage girls (or women who love the bad boy-good girl troop) in mind?🤓

I'm sorry but you're putting way too emphasis on that just because you heard some women drooling over the sex scenes in aforementioned films.

On the contrary, everything that teenage girls, OR women love by and large is looked down in pop culture.

I remember as soon as "Fifty Shades of Grey" and "365 days" got labelled as 'female fantasy', men started trolling and putting down these films just because they became popular and mainstream.👎🏼

Even though these films were as bad as other 100+ films that have catered to the male audience over the years in HW/BW.

Writers and movie makers will not be making such works if they didn't sell. Do u say only men are watching and liking such movies? If women don't like such movies or novels they won't watch or read them. Simple as that. But that's not the case is it? Their huge popularity in women is an incentive enough for movie makers and writers to come up with more such stuff. And not just produce similar stuff but also try pushing the boundaries as with 50 shades or 365 days.

Everything is based on demand vs supply. If demand amongst women will decrease then movie's business will take a hit and there will be less incentive to make such stuff.

Originally posted by: diasingh2

@bold

Brilliantly put.👏

It's the sweeping generalization that all women love these scenes => therefore these scenes exist in cinema is mind-boggling.

Why does it have to be all or none? There is a thing like majority and minority too.

Originally posted by: NathuPyare

@blue - I found Karan kundra to be pretty average looking guy but he was doing a similar khadoos boss role in some serial with krtikka kamra and girls were still going gaga over him. I guess him being rich and in authoritative position added to his desirable quotient even though he didn't have very goods going in his favor. The thing is there should atleast be one or two desirable qualities in a guy. Either rich, hot, cute, powerful, authoritative, mysterious or understanding etc. If the guy is average looking with none of the other desirable qualities then what's there to fall in love with?

Abusive is a newer extension of arrogant i guess. People are pushing limits in everything. If u have read wuthering heights, heathcliff was borderline abusive still it was him Catherine was swooning over rather than her good good husband.

About the change thing- whether the heroine changes hero or hero changes himself because of her love or influence is more or less the same the important thing is change.

Tbh i as a male am not even intrested in watching such rom coms or cheesy storylines. It's none of my fantasy and i can say that for almost all other males i know. But, females, on the other hand, the ones i have interacted with atleast, have got a huge thing for these kind of story tracks.

P s. Well darcy did break up lizzy's sister's rishta. That was pretty vile. so he was more than just being arrogant.

I don't find Kundra attractive as well but he's still better looking than the average (atleast physicality wise).

@blue : He might still have a 'heart of gold' 😆 but no one will be interested to watch it because that 'innate desire to change a bad boy' doesn't really stand ground.

Heathcliff and Catherine both were horrible people as has been shown repeatedly in the novel. Heathcliff obviously more than Catherine. Catherine herself was super problematic so there was no good girl swooning over bad boy.

The 'change' was the entire plot of P&P. Its in the title. Lizzie assumes the worst of Darcy during their first encounter and sees his every action through than lens. She changes her perception and let's go of her pride as well.

Ab pura plot hi uspe hai toh change toh dikhayenge.

Nobody changes in Persuasion. There are tonnes (literally tonnes) of other successful romance books (and even TV shows/movies) where there is no bad boy trope.

Even in BW, take JWM for an example. Geet chooses Shahid (the good guy) over that other stereotyped bad boy. JTYJN, Aditi is into Jai not her fiance even before he hits her. Par in movies ko nobody will take as the benchmark to assume what women like. Because it doesn't fit the assumed fantasy.

You are taking a handful of examples (genuine no doubt) from women you've interacted with and generalising it. The world is much bigger.

Also, Darcy did it coz he notices that Lizzie's sister doesn't show any affection towards his friend (also, he knows the mother is a gold digger) so as per him he was being protective (which was his prejudice) not because he had any malicious intent or wanted badla from the heroine .

Aaj subah subah IF ne itney essays likhwa diye. I had almost passed an entire month without them 😆

Originally posted by: NathuPyare

Writers and movie makers will not be making such works if they didn't sell. Do u say only men are watching and liking such movies? If women don't like such movies or novels they won't watch or read them. Simple as that. But that's not the case is it? Their huge popularity in women is an incentive enough for movie makers and writers to come up with more such stuff. And not just produce similar stuff but also try pushing the boundaries as with 50 shades or 365 days.

Everything is based on demand vs supply. If demand amongst women will decrease then movie's business will take a hit and there will be less incentive to make such stuff.

Things are changing and we're seeing strong female characters too, but the original question was about the existence of problematic love tracks in big pan-India films. These films have a wider reach and influence than regular films. That's why existence of such scenes need to be questioned.

You are literally using just two examples of novels/movies that are popular among women but have zero credibility. They were literally made to tickle the male/female audience that like such kind of erotica.

If we were to really make a list of films that have normalized, objectified, and relegated women to either just 'sex objects' OR 'dumb bimbos' over the years then we will a WAY BIGGER list.

That's why your assumption that "majority" of women love these scenes (there's no factual proof of it btw) => therefore these scenes exist, just feels wrong.

Because women don't want to be a just a 'sex object' or 'dumb bimbo', and women don't enjoy being portrayed in such degraded manner. There's no such 'demand' from women.

But since years Bollywood/Hollywood is "supplying" such cinema to their target audience, which had been largely male.

i rest my case now.

Originally posted by: trouble_006

I don't find Kundra attractive as well but he's still better looking than the average (atleast physicality wise).

@blue : He might still have a 'heart of gold' 😆 but no one will be interested to watch it because that 'innate desire to change a bad boy' doesn't really stand ground.

Heathcliff and Catherine both were horrible people as has been shown repeatedly in the novel. Heathcliff obviously more than Catherine. Catherine herself was super problematic so there was no good girl swooning over bad boy.

The 'change' was the entire plot of P&P. Its in the title. Lizzie assumes the worst of Darcy during their first encounter and sees his every action through than lens. She changes her perception and let's go of her pride as well.

Ab pura plot hi uspe hai toh change toh dikhayenge.

Nobody changes in Persuasion. There are tonnes (literally tonnes) of other successful romance books (and even TV shows/movies) where there is no bad boy trope.

Even in BW, take JWM for an example. Geet chooses Shahid (the good guy) over that other stereotyped bad boy. JTYJN, Aditi is into Jai not her fiance even before he hits her. Par in movies ko nobody will take as the benchmark to assume what women like. Because it doesn't fit the assumed fantasy.

You are taking a handful of examples (genuine no doubt) from women you've interacted with and generalising it. The world is much bigger.

Also, Darcy did it coz he notices that Lizzie's sister doesn't show any affection towards his friend (also, he knows the mother is a gold digger) so as per him he was being protective (which was his prejudice) not because he had any malicious intent or wanted badla from the heroine .

Aaj subah subah IF ne itney essays likhwa diye. I had almost passed an entire month without them 😆

Maine bhi apna essay na likhne ka vrat tod diya aaj

Agar short me kahoon to jab we met ho ya aur dusri movies u mentioned, ofcourse there's a variety of content in storylines. U can't expect same kind of storyline in every movie na? But can u deny a huge demand of rude boy boy turned good boy type of storylines amongst women? Aisa na hota to ye content itna bikta hi nahi.

Ofcourse I'm not saying all women like bad boys. But there does seem to be a big chunk of women population who enjoys such stuff. Warna aise serials ki trp low hi rehti plus ye serials mostly women hi dekti hain to ye mostly unke interst ke hisab se hi cater kiye jaata hain. Aisa thode na hai ki maine 4-5 ladkiyon se sun liya aur rai bana li. U think these serials would be made if women didn't like it. Isme to trp se poora demography data bhi nikal aata hai ki what percentage of women and what age group are watching these serials. Obviously lot of women are watching warna kam trp ki wajah se aise serials banatey hi nahi.

Originally posted by: diasingh2

Things are changing and we're seeing strong female characters too, but the original question was about the existence of problematic love tracks in big pan-India films. These films have a wider reach and influence than regular films. That's why existence of such scenes need to be questioned.

You are literally using just two examples of novels/movies that are popular among women but have zero credibility. They were literally made to tickle the male/female audience that like such kind of erotica.

If we were to really make a list of films that have normalized, objectified, and relegated women to either just 'sex objects' OR 'dumb bimbos' over the years then we will a WAY BIGGER list.

That's why your assumption that "majority" of women love these scenes (there's no factual proof of it btw) => therefore these scenes exist, just feels wrong.

Because women don't want to be a just a 'sex object' or 'dumb bimbo', and women don't enjoy being portrayed in such degraded manner. There's no such 'demand' from women.

But since years Bollywood/Hollywood is "supplying" such cinema to their target audience, which had been largely male.

i rest my case now.

Dekho sau baaton ki ek baat. Agar ye stuff bikta nahi to banta nahi. Agar women itne chaav se aise serials na dekhe (ipkknd jaise) ya 365 days ya 50 shades jaisi movies na pasand kare to aisa stuff bane hi nahi. Men would rather prefer watching p*rn than such stuff. Its the women audience they are catering too.

Ofcourse I'm not saying all women love this kind of stuff but many do and it's not based on just the women i have interacted with but based on the trp and collection such shows and movies are getting. These novels ( 365 or 50 shades) were also read by women mostly too. So i don't see why only men are being blamed for the success of such stuff. Women should take some responsibility about this too.

Anyways i rest my case too.

Originally posted by: NathuPyare

Maine bhi apna essay na likhne ka vrat tod diya aaj

Agar short me kahoon to jab we met ho ya aur dusri movies u mentioned, ofcourse there's a variety of content in storylines. U can't expect same kind of storyline in every movie na? But can u deny a huge demand of rude boy boy turned good boy type of storylines amongst women? Aisa na hota to ye content itna bikta hi nahi.

Ofcourse I'm not saying all women like bad boys. But there does seem to be a big chunk of women population who enjoys such stuff. Warna aise serials ki trp low hi rehti plus ye serials mostly women hi dekti hain to ye mostly unke interst ke hisab se hi cater kiye jaata hain. Aisa thode na hai ki maine 4-5 ladkiyon se sun liya aur rai bana li. U think these serials would be made if women didn't like it. Isme to trp se poora demography data bhi nikal aata hai ki what percentage of women and what age group are watching these serials. Obviously lot of women are watching warna kam trp ki wajah se aise serials banatey hi nahi.

Just to clarify, IPKKND never had high TRPs. It was never in top 5 even. That Suraj ji/IPS officer wala serial used to be topper at that time IIRC which had super supportive hero.

Even right now the TRP topper Maa wala serial has a good boy hero (I think).

Supply demand mein toh Naagin also has high TRPs, usme hero toh bechara hi hota hai mostly.

And the highest TRP shows have Saas torturing Bahu, doesn't mean that majority of women fantasise about it, right? 😆

There is a chunk who enjoys it, I'll agree but it's a minority. The issue is that romance is only being served in that one way. Ab baki options denge hi nahi toh yhi dekhna padega romance k naam pe.

Problematic heroes on big screen atleast are never made as per the 'fantasies' of women. Kabir Singh and KGF hero were both pandering to the male audience. Usme sath mein ek minor chunk of women ko bhi by default cater kr dia.

50 & 365 were made for women, sure. But as I explained earlier, remove the s*x scenes and most of the women wouldn't have watched it. It was just a refined version of p*rn/erotica for us.

Originally posted by: trouble_006

Just to clarify, IPKKND never had high TRPs. It was never in top 5 even. That Suraj ji/IPS officer wala serial used to be topper at that time IIRC which had super supportive hero.

Even right now the TRP topper Maa wala serial has a good boy hero (I think).

Supply demand mein toh Naagin also has high TRPs, usme hero toh bechara hi hota hai mostly.

And the highest TRP shows have Saas torturing Bahu, doesn't mean that majority of women fantasise about it, right? 😆

There is a chunk who enjoys it, I'll agree but it's a minority. The issue is that romance is only being served in that one way. Ab baki options denge hi nahi toh yhi dekhna padega romance k naam pe.

Problematic heroes on big screen atleast are never made as per the 'fantasies' of women. Kabir Singh and KGF hero were both pandering to the male audience. Usme sath mein ek minor chunk of women ko bhi by default cater kr dia.

50 & 365 were made for women, sure. But as I explained earlier, remove the s*x scenes and most of the women wouldn't have watched it. It was just a refined version of p*rn/erotica for us.

Family dramas ya kekta ke saas bahu dramas ke to pati ya hero henpecked ya adarsh beta type hi hote hain. Yaha baat romance genre ki ho rahi hai family drama (saas bahu) ya fantasy thriller (nagin ) ya kisi aur genre ki nahi. I'm sure ipkknd romance genre me indian tv ke top 5 me to hoga hi

Aur haan options nahi hain to kya jo milega wo dekhogi? Koi zor zabardasti thode na hai. Koi dusra serial dekh lo online ya tv par .. ya kuch aur kar lo. Problematic to wo viewers hain jo complain bhi karte rehte hain aur dekhte bhi rehte hain. Maine bb 2-3 seasons se dekhna chhod rakha hai kyunki i don't want to contribute in popularity of a show that has been higjly rigged.

And please saas bahu ki fantasies ke baare me to na hi poocho. Bolunga to bologi 2-4 logon ke basis par opinion bana li hai. Jab itne hi galat dikha rahe hain ye serials to log dekhte hi kyun hai. Ab ye mat kehna ki tv serials ki majority audience female nahi hai!

If only minority of women likes this kinda stuff then why isn't majority of women boycotting such stuff?

P.s i was wondering if we have interacted before? What was ur previous un, if u don't mind telling...

Originally posted by: NathuPyare

Family dramas ya kekta ke saas bahu dramas ke to pati ya hero henpecked ya adarsh beta type hi hote hain. Yaha baat romance genre ki ho rahi hai family drama (saas bahu) ya fantasy thriller (nagin ) ya kisi aur genre ki nahi. I'm sure ipkknd romance genre me indian tv ke top 5 me to hoga hi

Aur haan options nahi hain to kya jo milega wo dekhogi? Koi zor zabardasti thode na hai. Koi dusra serial dekh lo online ya tv par .. ya kuch aur kar lo. Problematic to wo viewers hain jo complain bhi karte rehte hain aur dekhte bhi rehte hain. Maine bb 2-3 seasons se dekhna chhod rakha hai kyunki i don't want to contribute in popularity of a show that has been higjly rigged.

And please saas bahu ki fantasies ke baare me to na hi poocho. Bolunga to bologi 2-4 logon ke basis par opinion bana li hai. Jab itne hi galat dikha rahe hain ye serials to log dekhte hi kyun hai. Ab ye mat kehna ki tv serials ki majority audience female nahi hai!

If only minority of women likes this kinda stuff then why isn't majority of women boycotting such stuff?

P.s i was wondering if we have interacted before? What was ur previous un, if u don't mind telling...

This has always been my user name. Maybe kabhi aise essay writing competition kia hoga IF pe 😆

Yaar look, the TV shows are watched by women no doubt. 100% audience bhi inki women hi hogi. But its a small chunk of women. Sari ladkiyan shaam ko baith k daily soaps nahi dekhti rehti 😆

How many women do you think watch these shows? Women busy with their jobs, studies, kids to raise, home. A small percentage of them watch these shows. The rest do watch other shows online. Ab itni population hai ki even if you manage to strike a cord with even 1%, the TV shows are golden. Show wale also don't bother to experiment since they know is formula mein itni earning ho jayegi and they drag it for years. Story/Writing kisi mein effort/paisa daalne ki zarurat nhi hoti.

Aap currently apne aas paas mein dekhlo, most of the ones who already are stressed with jobs/life don't have time to stress themselves more by watching such problematic romance heroes.

Movies are a different ball game altogether. Even you'll agree that KGF wale hero ki harkatein are not the fantasies of most of the women or were not as per the woman gaze.