OT - Controversial topic - Casteism - Page 2

Originally posted by: NimbuMirchi

I have 2 friends who benefited from reservation.

Both of their parents well to do. Most kids come to school on bicycles, these 2 had bike and active. Expensive mobiles too.

Now another case is the uncle who cleans our colony. I repeatedly told him to let his son complete his education. Help him. Take benefits of govt schemes, he didn’t. Got his son married and at 22, he is father of the kid. Now washes cars in the locality.

Tell me, who needed the reservation and who enjoyed the perks. I dislike Indian reservation system so much. Poor farmer family kids have no reservation coz of falling in general quota and rich govt officers kids enjoy reservation. Gandhi ji only wanted this for 10 years, to elevate dalits to better lifestyle. Now reservation has become a tool for votebank politics.

I'm sure there are those who take advantage of the system. You'll find such people everywhere, not just with reservation. But you'll also find many stories of underprivileged oppressed people who became something in life due to reservation.

It's just like how govt creates benefits to poor and sends them money sometimes. I know well off people who find loopholes in such schemes and take advantage of it by also getting benefits intended for only poor people.

While that is definitely wrong and needs to be fixed, one cannot stop the scheme itself; since it's actually benefiting a lot of genuine people.

This is how the concept of creamy layer was introduced. Now for backward classes, there is both a creamy layer and a non creamy one. Those under the creamy layer have a certain economic status and thus are not eligible for a lot of reservation opportunities. That's a step in the right direction.

Originally posted by: Lord_Voldemort

Reservations exist during admissions, yes, but the fact that their test scores were not enough to clear cutoff in general category means they are inferior academically speaking.

Doesn't matter how many marks they got in the college - 35 or 80, they would still hold a degree. Someone who scored high marks during admissions is also likely to get higher than average marks in the college.

I didn't say all doctors from backward classes have low marks, I said in all likelihood, which means clearly exceptions exist. Just as those general category students who may have cleared the admissions test but lose their way during college. But again, those would be exceptions.

No one is saying what students from backward classes are supposed to do. They have been historically discriminated against, which means they do not have equitable access to resources. That is why the bar is lowered for them during admissions, to remove some of that inequity. Which is necessary and my argument isn't against reservation at all. I am pro reservation and very much so.

However, my only dilemma is this hypothetical scenario where I have to choose one doctor from different backgrounds to save my loved one, and I would want to save them at all costs so I would want them to get the best doctor. So going by probability, I would want them to be operated by a student from general category. This by no means is to say that a doctor from BC is inferior. It is just statistically lot more likely to be the case.

What you are saying is true. While there are SC people who get basis merit as well.. people will avoid going to the doctor if they know the caste not because they are casteist, they will assume that they got in basis reservation and won’t be that good.

While reservation is for upliftment of backward castes, who have been historically wronged in the past. It also creates resentment and division in the society. Also, many lower caste people who are actually well off and from educated backgrounds, they seem to get the benefits than the ones who actually need it. IMO, the government needs to come with a new strategy to help the ones actually in need.

Originally posted by: Lord_Voldemort

I'm sure there are those who take advantage of the system. You'll find such people everywhere, not just with reservation. But you'll also find many stories of underprivileged oppressed people who became something in life due to reservation.

It's just like how govt creates benefits to poor and sends them money sometimes. I know well off people who find loopholes in such schemes and take advantage of it by also getting benefits intended for only poor people.

While that is definitely wrong and needs to be fixed, one cannot stop the scheme itself; since it's actually benefiting a lot of genuine people.

This is how the concept of creamy layer was introduced. Now for backward classes, there is both a creamy layer and a non creamy one. Those under the creamy layer have a certain economic status and thus are not eligible for a lot of reservation opportunities. That's a step in the right direction.

How about second generation lower caste people who have educated and rich families can’t use the reservation??

There's no Reservation in private sector, so caste of a doctor won't be a problem for me as I can afford treatment in private sector but one should wonder why government hospitals are not trusted in India?

The doctor in our local government hospital secured 40% marks in MBBS, he is head of the hospital in the sense that he is the ONLY doctor in our town, got the job on basis of Reservations and not a single person visits our government hospital, these people who don't have money, for whom government hospitals provide free medical treatment would spend money in district's private hospital which is 30km from our town

To answer your question, believe it or not there's a reason why government hospitals are not trusted, I won't put my life in hands of someone who didn't get admission or the job on merit, their caste doesn't matter but government should understand that like we don't have Reservation in Army, we shouldn't have Reservation in health sector

On the topic at the hand, this scheme of Reservation is 70 years old and has failed in uplifting people from ST/SC/OBC, one has only to visit a single village in India to see how they are treated, I remember when I lived in PG, the land lady would make a girl take bath everyday before she entered her house because she belonged to "lower caste", I changed PG after this incident and asked the girl to come with me because none should have to go through the humiliation of this level

Every political party has reduced people from ST/SC to vote Bank, their leaders don't care about them, instead of uplifting them we have incapacitated them, why believe that they won't study if they have the resources? Why believe that they need Reservation in every step of their life from school to entrance exam to college to job, even promotion?

I remember in 2018, CSIR NET examination the cut off for ST or SC category was 25%, the same was for physically handicapped people, you know passing % in any institution is 33%

We have lowered them so much that we believe that they can't secure 33% marks

If a scheme didn't work in 70 years, it won't work, they have to think about something else but vote Bank politics and people who have a voice, leaders who live in big cities, would rather enjoy Reservation, after having every resource than help people from their community who have nothing

Originally posted by: Autumn_Rose

How about second generation lower caste people who have educated and rich families can’t use the reservation??

Sounds like a fair idea but considering the extent to which they were exploited and discriminated against, I feel uplifting one generation won't make much difference. It has to be carried on for 2-3 generations for it to have a real effect.

Rich people can definitely be excluded, I agree. That's how the concept of creamy layer came to be; if you are well off financially you belong to the creamy layer. Only backward caste people who come under under non-creamy layer can avail reservation.

Unfortunately India is still such an under developed country with majority people working in an unorganized workforce, so there is no proper mechanism of finding out whether one is well off or not. So many rich people in the country don't pay income tax. So people will definitely find ways to escape this creamy layer thing.

But yes, those who take advantage of the system should definitely be stopped. I mean how can an IAS officer's son or daughter apply for a position using quota system? They should leave those quota seats for the less privileged. Unfortunately everyone is so greedy, this might not happen voluntarily. So govt needs to make provisions like a second or third generation kid of an officer comes under general quota and not reserved.

Originally posted by: Lord_Voldemort

Sounds like a fair idea but considering the extent to which they were exploited and discriminated against, I feel uplifting one generation won't make much difference. It has to be carried on for 2-3 generations for it to have a real effect.

Rich people can definitely be excluded, I agree. That's how the concept of creamy layer came to be; if you are well off financially you belong to the creamy layer. Only backward caste people who come under under non-creamy layer can avail reservation.

Unfortunately India is still such an under developed country with majority people working in an unorganized workforce, so there is no proper mechanism of finding out whether one is well off or not. So many rich people in the country don't pay income tax. So people will definitely find ways to escape this creamy layer thing.

But yes, those who take advantage of the system should definitely be stopped. I mean how can an IAS officer's son or daughter apply for a position using quota system? They should leave those quota seats for the less privileged. Unfortunately everyone is so greedy, this might not happen voluntarily. So govt needs to make provisions like a second or third generation kid of an officer comes under general quota and not reserved.

I think these days due to Adhaar card etc.. it's become harder to hide tax.

Yes, people working in unorganised sector, it's really hard. The problem is, the political parties are using this to get votes and they don't genuinely care about the people.

Major problem in India is - low quality primary and secondary education. Especially in underdeveloped villages and small towns. What is the point of college and govt job reservations when they educational base is weak itself?

They need to run more programs to try change the mindset of people and increase general awareness. Just giving reservation colleges & govt jobs etc ain't it.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

There's no Reservation in private sector, so caste of a doctor won't be a problem for me as I can afford treatment in private sector but one should wonder why government hospitals are not trusted in India?

The doctor in our local government hospital secured 40% marks in MBBS, he is head of the hospital in the sense that he is the ONLY doctor in our town, got the job on basis of Reservations and not a single person visits our government hospital, these people who don't have money, for whom government hospitals provide free medical treatment would spend money in district's private hospital which is 30km from our town

To answer your question, believe it or not there's a reason why government hospitals are not trusted, I won't put my life in hands of someone who didn't get admission or the job on merit, their caste doesn't matter but government should understand that like we don't have Reservation in Army, we shouldn't have Reservation in health sector

On the topic at the hand, this scheme of Reservation is 70 years old and has failed in uplifting people from ST/SC/OBC, one has only to visit a single village in India to see how they are treated, I remember when I lived in PG, the land lady would make a girl take bath everyday before she entered her house because she belonged to "lower caste", I changed PG after this incident and asked the girl to come with me because none should have to go through the humiliation of this level

Every political party has reduced people from ST/SC to vote Bank, their leaders don't care about them, instead of uplifting them we have incapacitated them, why believe that they won't study if they have the resources? Why believe that they need Reservation in every step of their life from school to entrance exam to college to job, even promotion?

I remember in 2018, CSIR NET examination the cut off for ST or SC category was 25%, the same was for physically handicapped people, you know passing % in any institution is 33%

We have lowered them so much that we believe that they can't secure 33% marks

If a scheme didn't work in 70 years, it won't work, they have to think about something else but vote Bank politics and people who have a voice, leaders who live in big cities, would rather enjoy Reservation, after having every resource than help people from their community who have nothing

I think in many places.. there are such fake hospitals. In my hometown, whenever I travel from Delhi.. there is a 5-6Km road, you won't believe, its full of nursing homes and hospitals.. on both sides of the road. Next to each other!! It's the weirdest thing I have seen in my entire life.

I think only govt hospitals like AIIMS in metro cities are great.

What can we do to change mindset of the people? It's really unfortunate. People can be provided with facilities, education, money.. but how do you change how they think?

I will tell you an incident, true one. It was when India was under British rule.

There was once a Britisher who suddenly wanted to convert to Hinduism. He asked his Indian friends and they laughed at him, took it as a joke. When, he didn't listen, they advised him to write a letter to Pandits in Banaras. Soon he got a reply, they asked him to feed Brahmins for a year.. and then commit suicide. He may get born as a low caste Bhangi in next birth!!..

So you see, this is the mindset of many!

Originally posted by: Autumn_Rose

I think in many places.. there are such fake hospitals. In my hometown, whenever I travel from Delhi.. there is a 5-6Km road, you won't believe, its full of nursing homes and hospitals.. on both sides of the road. Next to each other!! It's the weirdest thing I have seen in my entire life.

I think only govt hospitals like AIIMS in metro cities are great.

What can we do to change mindset of the people? It's really unfortunate. People can be provided with facilities, education, money.. but how do you change how they think?

I will tell you an incident, true one. It was when India was under British rule.

There was once a Britisher who suddenly wanted to convert to Hinduism. He asked his Indian friends and they laughed at him, took it as a joke. When, he didn't listen, they advised him to write a letter to Pandits in Banaras. Soon he got a reply, they asked him to feed Brahmins for a year.. and then commit suicide. He may get born as a low caste Bhangi in next birth!!..

So you see, this is the mindset of many!

@bold

I don't understand this, what do you mean by fake hospital? We have one government hospital with one doctor, it's not a fake hospital, it's just that people, even if they don't have money take loan to go to a private hospital rather than get free treatment

If the government doctor was trustworthy, these people wouldn't have to face it nor would we need programs like Ayushman Bharat as government hospital treat patients free of cost

Our government doctor's only job is to give out fake/real medical certificates as only their signed documents are accepted by schools, colleges and offices, he charges Rs1000 for fake medical certificate for a student in school

Situation is very grim because even though we have a hospital on paper, so many people die because they can't get to the district hospital on time which is 30km away from our town, the area has about 12-15 villages and one Tehsil but not a single hospital where you can get treatment, hospitals are there only on paper

I am not saying the bad situation is because of reservation that's the case in our town specifically, there shouldn't be reservation in health sector

I think we can start by ending the caste system in India, It will take years for people to forget but they won't be able to forget if you keep asking people to write their caste in every important document, It should not be a part of their identity

Reservation didn't succeed in last 70 years, it is a faulty system, we need to think about alternatives, we need to help people who need it, an IAS' child doesn't need reservation

But we know if government or court changes even 1 bit of it, these privileged leaders of various pressure groups will start rioting like they did the last time Supreme Court delivered a verdict on SC/ST act

Money ain't a solution for everything. The people sitting on the top of all big companies from colleges, universities to corporate sector, most of the time are from the general caste.

An ST/SC person even if he/she belongs from a rich or well-to-do family, still can face discrimination by them because of his/her caste while getting jobs or promotion, even during admissions if there is an interview process. That's why reservations exist so that these organizations don't discriminate people based on their caste.

Of course, nobody is going to openly admit that they are casteist. But they would still have that personal bias and they would show it while choosing candidates for admission, jobs or promotion.

Saying that rich people can't face casteism is the same as saying that rich women can't face harassment.

Removing reservations from medical or army doesn't mean every candidate would be/is chosen through merit there. There is internal casteism which exists as well.

So an average doctor from the general quota could also get promotion over a doctor from the backwards class, even if the latter is more qualified for a promotion than the former, only because their boss who most likely belongs to the general quota is a casteist.

If a doctor of reserved quota with 40% of marks in MBBS is operating in a government hospital in a village, then that's not because of his caste. But maybe it is because there would be doctors with 40% marks in general category as well. They would be operating somewhere as well, most likely in the private hospitals where they could get in because of their caste.

Maybe medical schools should set a higher bar for passing marks if they want more competent and qualified doctors. Blaming everything on reservation is not right.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@bold

I don't understand this, what do you mean by fake hospital? We have one government hospital with one doctor, it's not a fake hospital, it's just that people, even if they don't have money take loan to go to a private hospital rather than get free treatment

If the government doctor was trustworthy, these people wouldn't have to face it nor would we need programs like Ayushman Bharat as government hospital treat patients free of cost

Our government doctor's only job is to give out fake/real medical certificates as only their signed documents are accepted by schools, colleges and offices, he charges Rs1000 for fake medical certificate for a student in school

Situation is very grim because even though we have a hospital on paper, so many people die because they can't get to the district hospital on time which is 30km away from our town, the area has about 12-15 villages and one Tehsil but not a single hospital where you can get treatment, hospitals are there only on paper

I am not saying the bad situation is because of reservation that's the case in our town specifically, there shouldn't be reservation in health sector

I think we can start by ending the caste system in India, It will take years for people to forget but they won't be able to forget if you keep asking people to write their caste in every important document, It should not be a part of their identity

Reservation didn't succeed in last 70 years, it is a faulty system, we need to think about alternatives, we need to help people who need it, an IAS' child doesn't need reservation

But we know if government or court changes even 1 bit of it, these privileged leaders of various pressure groups will start rioting like they did the last time Supreme Court delivered a verdict on SC/ST act

I’m not talking about govt hospitals..

I’m saying that there are fake hospitals and fake doctors too.. in small places