꧁༺ | ꧁•⊹Ishita⊹•꧂ AT # 1 - Page 10

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Yudi was awful when it came to Drau no two ways about it. But my point it is generally accepted he was awful. So not much will change.

But all Pandavas together including Arjuna would lose a lot

1) All Pandavas killed innocent people during house of lac to save themselves

2) Arjuna feel in love with Subhadara at first sight . There is no POV of Subhadra regarding this in the entire epic. Its mostly shown that Subhadara falls in love with Arjuna but that's not the case.

3) Then the whole Khandavdahan incident is not as simple as it is generally portrayed.

4) Arjun did nothing in the dice hall accept say one indirect stamen that Kauravas should decide if Yudi was the leader or not. He didn't do or say anything directly. Most f the oaths were taken by Bhima and infact Bhima made Arjun take the oath to kill Karna. Arjuna's only response was ok if you say so😆.

5) Then the whole Upkichaka incident

Karna's image wold definately change from what it is today.

The whole conversation of Krishna offering Draupadi to Karna is quiet bad in taste if actually shown.

Dury and Sahkuni will massively gain. They neither plotted nor planed anything during dice hall. Shakuni was genuinely more skilled that is all.

@ Bold. Bheema's oaths had absolutely no effect. In fact, they were negated by his agreement that Yudhishtira had every right to stake Panchali. Ie, Bheema agreed Panchali was a slave. Arjuna's small statement had massive effect because it was made right after Suyodhana made the offer. Timing matters, and target matters. Arjuna made his statement exactly at the right time and aimed it exactly at Suyodhana's word as a royal that he made in public.

@Red. Krishna's offer was legally invalid as both Krishna and Karna knew.

1. Krishna had no legal standing to offer Panchali to anyone, and the people who had legal standing (acc to standards of the era) - her father, brothers, husband - had not authorized Krishna to make that offer.

2. Not only that, Rig Veda and Manu Smriti both say wife of younger brother is akin to daughter, but younger brother has claim on older brother's wife. So Karna could not have married Panchali even if he accepted.

Krishna was taunting Karna, and they both knew it. Or Karna wouldn't have taunted right back saying basically, yeah, yeah, let's see you kill us. Dhrishtadyumna can kill Drona, Arjuna can kill Bheeshma, etc. etc, regardless of Bheema's ridiculous oaths. Oaths he was quite willing to forget as a matter of fact.

3. Krishna was also quite careful to word it with dual meaning.

shashte cha twaam tathaa kaale draupadee upagamishyati (MBH, 5.138.15c)

KMG translates this as "During the sixth period, Draupadi also will come to thee (as a wife).

Note that Krishna's words do not contain "wife" anywhere. KMG adds it.

Shashta kaale means twilight, not sixth period or sixth year. That time is actually forbidden for sex. It is meant for self-reflection. Ie, learning.

Upgamishyati - can mean either sex or simply to visit. Note: Panchali was the king's counsel in Indraprastha.

Krishna left himself a huge out had Karna been fool enough to accept the offer.

4. Krishna had also promised Karna's death to Panchali (as well as deaths of Suyodhana and Dusshasana). So either Krishna's vow to Panchali was a lie or his offer to Karna was. Krishna later says it is fine to lie to an enemy. Also, he lists Karna's crimes just before Arjuna kills the enemy. So yeah, pretty good chance Krishna lied to Karna.

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Anyway, Subhadra haran and Khandava dahan are enough to taint to both Krishna and Arjuna.

Imagine a brother arranging that! People who say Krishna favored Subhadra need to evaluate what they're saying IMO. He admitted he had no clue how she would choose if given a choice and asked Arjuna to abduct her! Some favoring that! And then, krishna had the gall to get angry when he heard of what happened to Panchali. Hypocrisy of it!

Khandava dahan was instigated by Vyasa and Bheeshma, it turned into a slaughter because of Indra's convenient attack. So there were other culprits involved, but Krishna and Arjuna were massively responsible for the death of that tribe, including the deliberate murder of a pregnant woman.

Not sure about Suyodhan gaining.

I mean although despite having read the epic I do feel that Suyodhan was very much a better person than what the shows have. He genuinely cared for his brothers & Karna was not arrogant was in fact respectful to elders and was not completely opportunistic.

Aside his role in Dice Hall was much less than what shows(including BRC which is closest to the epic) have shown.

But we can not negate he was the person to plan Lakshagriha. BORI has even removed via discussing this plan to the Chandal Chaukdi, so although it's not possible to execute the plan all alone, but we can't be sure if Karna/Dusshashan or Shakuni were even involved in the plan.

Bheem poisoning could have been Karna's plan but was executed by him, I mean comeon, Karna wasn't his friend back then, he was probably a servant/royal guard or at max an accomplice, such a person wouldn't or rather can't dare to"advice" you until you ask for it. Duryodhan would have probably asked for an advice about killing Bheem and Karna made this plan

Duryodhan might be better than Yudhishtir or Karna but he is the main antagonist of the epic, he is the trunk of the tree of evil, no way he could gain by his true portrayal

The biggest gainer would Shakuni. The guy was genuine and a true well wisher of his nephew (I so wish one of his daughters should have been married to Duryodhan or his son to Dusshala). A propenent of peace and they make him a sly, cunning and opportunistic man.

But then if shown in true sense there would be hardly any importance of his in the epic(like it is now) so that is a loss in another sense.

About Krishna Karna convo that definitely was a series of taunts, Krishna said you would lose, Karna like true Bheem will kill Duryodhan, Bheeshm by Arjun and why not Dhristhdhyum is there to kill Drona. Krishna says oh if you could switch sides you could become a real king, Karna like no even then I will have to hand over the crown to Duryodhan, so no gain for me.

Both knew that it is just a verbal banter

@Hearmeroar, as per Manusmriti, the wife of elder brother is like the wife of your Guru(teacher) so not actually approachable in the true sense

Happy Krishna Janamashmi all

@Hear Me Roar: The thing with MB is that due to so many inconsistencies ,interpolation and the way we have the texts today different people can have different POV's and different interpretations of the same text or character and they all can be right at the same time Hence when it comes to interpretations one can go in end less discussion without any conclusion. Though i do believe in interpretations but sometimes i like things to be simple as well because if we go by interpretation then many other characters can also be justifiable in different POV's. I will be frank though i like Drau but she is not the only character i like, i like Yudi, Bhima, Arjuna, Krishna and Karna as well. To some extent Bhishma as well. Now i like Yudi but the doesn't mean i will justify his actions or his words to Drau via interpretation though if you see Yudi fans do, do that. But for me i like Yudi in certain other aspects of the epic but not when it comes to Drau. Similarly when it comes to Karna i wont use interpretation of what i think he is saying to Drau and justify it, i will just simply look at it for the way it is and wont justify it. I think this epic is so beautifully complex may be because of the inconsistencies only that every one can find something or the other likeable about each character.

Coming the dice hall, i don't think any Pandavas come out looking good from there. Dury said if Pandavas say Yudi is not their leader they and Drau are free. Bhima denied. But Arjuna also didn't say that. He said Kauravas should decide it, he didn't directly say anything. The same Kauaravs who were harassing her should decide. I don't see how this is helpful at all? Dhrit later changes his mind due to bad omens around it, its clearly stated in both KMG and critical edition. So i wont interpret anything more than that since for me text is clear here as to why Dhrit changes his mind. Its Draupadi's constant appeals and the bad omens that is it. The only credit Bhima gets is that his role was max in avenging her which is consistent with his character throughout the epic in saving Drau. This is just one incident. You are well read so you would know there are many such incidents.

Again coming to Karna and Krishna conversation. To end this topic i won't get into the details of the interpretation of that conversation but even if i consider all your POVs it still doesn't justify what Krishna said to Karna. Its completely unacceptable in my POV and indigestible. I don't know what he was thinking. I wont justify his statements just like i will never justify Karna's. 3 things that i find very hard to accept and indigestible in epic when it comes to Drau is:

1) Panadavs inaction during Dyut sabha

2) Karna's actual involvement in Dyut Sabha

3) Pandavas except Bhima's inactions during Upakichaka

4) Krishna and Karna conversation about Drau

First one every one knows. But not the other's because of the image that we have of Pandavas and Krishna and Karna the other 3 actions will be very hard to justify which is why makers don't include that. Which is why i wish makers would include these just to show that things are not so black and white. Also this is the reason why i don't like any exaggerated love stories that people write or show between Drau and Arjuna or Drau and Karna even friendship between Drau and Krishna. Not that there isn't. Yes there are some beautiful moments between Drau and Arjuna and Drau and Krishna as well but there are some completely insufferable moments as well which again shows things are not as black and white. The only love story i really want to see of Drau is between her and Bhima because that actually doesn't have quiet a few moments through out the epic. But very few people care about that😭.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Not sure about Suyodhan gaining.

I mean although despite having read the epic I do feel that Suyodhan was very much a better person than what the shows have. He genuinely cared for his brothers & Karna was not arrogant was in fact respectful to elders and was not completely opportunistic.

Aside his role in Dice Hall was much less than what shows(including BRC which is closest to the epic) have shown.

^^^ What exactly Karna did is the reason that you would like him? I really want to ask how he fares over Duryodhan or Shakuni?

I mean if you can excuse Yudhishtir for Dyut Sabha, Karna for Dyut Sabha and all the plotting, why aew Duryodhan and Shakuni spared/forgiven for the same?

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Exactly Dury is much better that he is shown and Pandavas or Karna are not as saintly as shown. I think many people would find the actual epic shocking since images are very different.

Yudi and Karna are definitely worse than Duryodhan.

Duryodhan overall is not a bad person, just he fell down to abysmal levels for his enimity/obsession, Yudi/Karna were completely unacceptable even as humans

Who says such words about his dying wife/brothers like Yudi did during his voyage towards Swarg. He was typically a victim card player and nothing else

Nonetheless moving on 😊.Why is this AT so dead? Let me start another discussion😆

So i caught up yesterday with all the episodes. So now all the blame of Drau marrying five Pandavas goes to Kunti😡. So again blame Kunti for the lust / love or the decision Pandavs made. I guess its easier to blame a woman for the sins of men. I know its a popular theory but none either KMG or Critical edition says that. Both show Kunti was genuinely unaware and was genuinely miserable at what she said and asks Yudi for an advice.

Infact to Yudi's credit he does say that Arjuna should marry her in accordance with all the rituals.

Its Arjuna who says no and says either all of us will marry her or you alone. But since Yudi know that all Pandavas are lusting after Drau or are in love with her however one wants to put it hence Yudi in order to keep his brother's together says all 5 will marry her.

So if any blame should got it should go to Pandvas alone and not to the women neither Kunti nor Drau as they were either innocent or silent spectator.

Nonethelss whait i wanted to ask you guys is that what do you make of Drau's silence in the epic regarding this? She is also shown to be happy by the end of the day. None of other version of the epic have Drau saying anything or complaining. Is it because story is being told to Arjuna's great grandson and hence they cant have Drau complaining even if she did? or was Drau genuinely ok? Of course no one can say what really happened thousands of years ago😆. But Drau is quiet curt to Yudi and rightfully so at many times in the epic she isn't silent then so her silence here may mean that she was genuinely happy or ok with the mmarriage hence didn't complain. What do you guys think?

Coming to Karna Krishna convo, it does seem like a set of sarcastic remark to each other(Krishna even asked Karna to switch sides on the day before the war started stating that he is as it is not fighting under Bheeshm, so he should join them and fight from Pandavas side till Bheeshm is the CIC, he would be free to return to Kauravas side post this. Tell me do you really think he could be serious about it) but even if not, Krishna was just lying to lure him.

Krishn wasn't Draupadi's Husband/father/brother/son to have any rights on her. He couldn't have offered her anyway. Same with the state. He wasn't the custodian of state to offer it to Karna

He was just their messenger/friend Pandavas were not obliged to accept any offer he made without their knowledge

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^ What exactly Karna did is the reason that you would like him? I really want to ask how he fares over Duryodhan or Shakuni?

I mean if you can excuse Yudhishtir for Dyut Sabha, Karna for Dyut Sabha and all the plotting, why aew Duryodhan and Shakuni spared/forgiven for the same?

But when did i say i excuse Yudi or Karna for Dyut Sabha? I am saying the opposite that even though i like them in some aspects of the epic what they did in Dyut Sabha is not justifiable nor will i justify that. They were completely wrong and no justification there.