~| Whatever you want to argue about - 2 |~ - Page 40

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I am not sure about Drupad thing but Pandavas god birth is definitely a notion/myth propogated by Kunti n not a later addition. Because there is no way people wouldn't have asked about the biological father.

Plus there are mentions of many people not accepting this. So yes they were always called god's children (later Kunti extrapolated that theory to incorporate Karna), few believed, few didn't but they couldn't go across the sages.

Even Alexander always called himself son of Zeus and that's how the Mecedonian writers called him back then. So in earlier days it was possible for kings to propogate their perspective or divine birth superiority stories

That wasn't possible for Drupad, because now adults were being born n not kids, while Niyog happened closed doors and couldn't have any witness, Yagya was a open and public event. Hence he couldn't make such claims at all

My Alexander 💕 ❤️ his wife Roxanne was said to be most beautiful , she 2 was of dusky complexion.😆

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Two theories -

1 Kunti told people that Pandavas were sons of God and got acceptance of the society, If one believes that these were sons of God, it means people were religious and didn't go against Sages/Priest. Draupadi birth is not mentioned as a separate event, it is mentioned during a storytelling by a sage to Pandavas, so I am guessing the fire birth was a similar propaganda by Drupad.

2 Pandavas being sons of God and Draupadi coming out of fire is for us, it would have been added to support the religious nature of Mahabharata, when one discards religious nature and divinity of Mahabharata, there's no possibility of someone coming out of fire

I support the 2nd theory BECAUSE the fire birth is not described like shown on television, @Chilli explained how fire and Yagya was a hawan either for adoption or to get Dristadumya the power to kill Drona, a Brahman

Why do I believe this theory?

Panchal had lost to young Pandavas, Drupad was captured, don't you think it would have been very shameful for him to lose at hands of Pandavas? He was a King, apparently he was one of the 2 Kings that time who could be an emperor, I am told Hastinapur and Panchal were very strong kingdoms, Here Young, out of college people defeated an army and captured the king, after this the kingdom was divided in Half, So Drupad was living life from Drona's charity

Now follow this - 1 Kingdom lost to Young Pandavas

2 Kingdom divided in two parts

Now, do you really think Panchal was as strong after their kingdom was divided in half? Is it logical for a King to be captured, when the kingdom was the most powerful one, and not face humiliation?

What he does is come up with a theory that his son Dristadumya has the power to kill Drona and his daughter Draupadi will cause destruction of bad Kshatriyas

How else do you think people took him seriously? Marriage to Pandavas was a compulsion from Drupad because he was defeated by them -

Yajnasena always desired to give Krishna to Kiriti,

he never revealed this to anyone. O Janamejaya! O descendant of the Bharata lineage! Thinking of Kunti’s son, the Panchala got a very hard bow constructed, one that no one else would be able to bend. He had an

artificial machine4 set up above and onto this machine he fixed a golden target. Drupada said, “He who can string this bow and, after stringing, shoot the target above with these arrows, will obtain my daughter

King Pandu was a dear friend of King Drupada, who regarded him as his own self.He has all along desired that his daughter should be given to that Kourava as his daughter-in-law. O heroes of unblemished limbs! This desire was always in King Drupada’s heart, that the strong and long-armed Arjuna should marry his daughter according to dharma.

This was his desire, but he definitely didn't know that Pandavas are alive or they will participate in Swayamvar, You can read it yourself, Dristadumya went to Potter's hut and spied on Pandavas came home and told Drupad about them being Pandavas, They didn't know Pandavas were there, if he was in cplans with Vyasa, he would have done something to make sure Yudi wins Draupadi or Draupadi would have selected Yudi. Arjuna was a good archer, but I don't think in whole India, only he could win that Swayamvar, even if he did, do you think they would have anticipated it? Do you think someone would leave a plan as big as this up to the chance of not a single person succeeding?

The Swayamvar and Drupad's conversation with Dristadumya are enough evidence of his not being involved in this plan, one more point in this direction is polyandry was neither Drupad's idea nor he knew about it before Yudi said that all of them will marry Draupadi and Vyasa came there to support this.The fact that they had to convince him to marry Draupadi to 5 of them, tells you he wasn't part of this plan. The fact that they put this condition after Draupadi had spent a night in potter hut with Pandavas made it much more difficult for Drupad to refuse. Drupad was a king, he wasn't an idiot who would blindly follow Vyasa not thinking about his future.

Vyasa was involved with Pandavas, He sent them to Swayamvar and came there after Pandavas had won to put this condition in front if Drupad, The negotiation took place AFTER SWAYAMVAR not BEFORE SWAYAMVAR

As @Chilli said Vyasa got an opportunity and used it

Krishna's involvement -

Krishna didn't care about Pandavas when they were suffering, there's not a single mention of Krishna helping Pandavas before Swayamvar, It was during Swayamvar, he witnessed prowess of Arjuna and Bhima, He took Arjuna and Bhima to Jarasandh, He didn't need an army to kill him, he needed Bhima

BUT all this happened AFTER SWAYAMVAR not BEFORE SWAYAMVAR

One had to note by the time they went to kill Jarasandh with Bhima's help, Krishna was related to them by Subhadra's marriage to Arjuna, you see Draupadi's marriage to them didn't actually do anything for Krishna except that he witnessed their prowess in her Swayamvar, that's when he started bonding with them

This so just my opinion based on what I have read so far, I don't believe in plans

Preet said Magadh was most powerful kingdom.

Krishna did helped building indraprastha ?

Chiilii said krishna wanted arjun draupadi but vyas spoiled his plan by getting draupadi married to 5 Pandavas.

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Preet said Magadh was most powerful kingdom.

Krishna did helped building indraprastha ?

Chiilii said krishna wanted arjun draupadi but vyas spoiled his plan by getting draupadi married to 5 Pandavas.

As per HV, Akroorji had actually said in the royal court that Yadavs support Kunti n Pandavas it's probably after that Dhritrashtra appointed Yudhishtir as the Yuvaraj but BORI removed Yudhishtir's Yuvrajibhishek

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Ah. So like Subhadra being Ekanamsa.

Subhadra in the epic is fair of a golden hue.

Ekanamsa is dark as amavasya.

Skin color kaise change hua

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Subhadra in the epic is fair of a golden hue.

Ekanamsa is dark as amavasya.

Skin color kaise change hua

Yes true. Subhadra was actually fair

But that makes me feel that if this inclination for light colours were prevalent back then too?? Maybe since Janmayey was being told the story his great grandmother became fair and the step great grandmother became dusky/dark beauty

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes true. Subhadra was actually fair

But that makes me feel that if this inclination for light colours were prevalent back then too?? Maybe since Janmayey was being told the story his great grandmother became fair and the step great grandmother became dusky/dark beauty

Dark colour was in during dwapar

Krishna dark

Arjun dark

Draupadi dark

Nakul also have dark complexion , he was most handsome man

Ekanamsa description and age doesnt match subhadra.

1. She was fair and ekanamsa dark

2. Krishna and Arjun are near about the same age. And this will make Subhadra same age too

Her marriage happens with Arjun at the end of his exile. Arjun was definetly a minimum of 21 at the time of Drau swayamvr.

So he must be 27 / 28 if 1 year exile or 37/38 if 12 year exile.

No woman could remain unmarriied for 27 28 yewrs of her life in that era...least of all a princess.

Who is called indrasena in MB ?

@Nora

It's not true that Krishna never contacted Pandavas prior to swayamvara or that he didn't know of their prowess.

Pandavas were in a better position prior to lac house. They were princes, living a cushy life even though there were problems with Kauravas. Krishna was under constant attack from Jarasandha. Then, he was busy fleeing to Dwaraka.

Pandavas had beaten Drupada in guru dakshina war and taken half the kingdom. It wasn't a secret. Drupada was related to Narada clan. There's no way the news didn't spread through Aryavarta. Narada was already in touch with Krishna by then.

Krishna sent Akrura to talk to Hastinapuri and offered support in fight against Kauravas. I agree it was probably a "hey, you help me, and I help you" offer. There was no response from Pandavas that we know of.

Then, lac house happened. During the months after, Panchali's adoption happened. Then Krishna was suddenly allied with Pandavas and Panchali.

It wasn't a matter of Krishna and Vyasa simply taking advantage of Panchali's adoption. An alliance between 2 nations doesn't exactly happen that way.

• For one, it takes time to negotiate terms between countries.
• For another, That an alliance was planned by Vyasa is clear. He was no one to make that arrangement if we assume he was simply taking advantage 😆. The only way he'd have the clout is if he already talked to Drupada. There is no way then or now, there is no way that in ANY corner of the world, that an alliance was planned without including the girl's father in the plans. Also, Drupada clearly arranged things thinking Arjuna might be alive. He obviously knew, and the most likely person to have told him is Vyasa. Ie, Vyasa wasn't simply taking advantage. He arranged the whole thing. For him to arrange the whole thing, Drupada needed to have daughter which brings me to point 3.
• Third point, Panchali was not a child Drupada WANTED to adopt. She came along with Dhrishtadyumna. The only reason for Drupada to adopt her would be it was a condition for getting the boy. SOMEONE placed that condition. Given Krishna's involvement in placing an orphan called PANCHALA with his uncle, it was likely Krishna. Or could be Vyasa. Regardless, SOMEONE put that condition. So no, none of it was unplanned UP TO THIS PART.

Also, if Drupada were a friend of Pandu's, why didn't this become an issue during guru dakshina war?

Bottomline is it wasn't that Krishna ignored Pandavas when they needed help. It was that THEY ignored Krishna when HE needed help but were quite willing to take his money and help when they were desperate. PANDAVAS were the opportunistic nincompoops.

In our hurry to make Krishna a villain, let's not forget the basics of logic.

One other thing: I strongly believe Vyasa/Bheeshma had a hand in instigating the murder attempt/lac house to MAKE Pandavas desperate enough to agree to half the kingdom and a semi suicide mission of attacking Jarasandha. If they failed, only they and Krishna would fall. Hastinapuri and Suyodhana would be safe.

In the hurry to judge Krishna as culprit for the 18th night massacre, we forget several major points.

1. Krishna found out about Ashwathhama's plan when he was in Hastinapuri. He then told Dhritharashtra and Gandhari and also Vyasa. He also returned to Pandava camp and "told them everything." Unless we believe Vyasa was lying, this "everything" includes the intended massacre. So they ALL knew.

2. According to text, Krishna was told the intended victims were PANDAVAS.

3. But Ashwatthama knew exactly who he was killing when he went. Ie, he knew he was killing Upapandavas. He didn't go into Pandava tent and find Upapandavas. He specifically went there.

4. According to CE, Krishna didn't remove the Pandavas from camp. But if there was all the noise, and they still didn't help, there are only 2 possibilities. 1) the Pandava camp wasn't there. Ie, Ashwatthama was definitely not making a mistake. The Upapandavas were the intended targets as opposed to what Krishna heard 2) Pandavas knew and made their own sons sleep in tents meant for fathers to allow them to be slaughtered. And they didn't help when there were screams and cries for help.

Which do you think was more likely?

Bottomline is that Krishna got bad Intel. To make him the villain of the piece for that doesn't meet basic standards of fairness.

------

One possibility which occured to me:

Krishna DIDN'T get bad intel. He was double-crossed.

Dhritharashtra and Gandhari clearly hadn't forgiven the Pandavas and Krishna at that point. Dhritharashtra trying to kill Bheema comes after that. Also, Krishna had gone there to offer peace but when he took Pandavas there after massacre, he somehow knew Dhritharashtra would try to kill Bheema.

What changed between Krishna's first visit and Pandavas arrival in Hastinapuri?

Clearly, the king and wife were told about the intel re: Ashwatthama. This part is in Krishna's dialogue. Why he'd imagine the couple had forgiven all is mind-boggling. Perhaps he was simply relieved the war was over. Perhaps he started believing his own PR that he was infallible Anyway, Suyodhana was alive at the time. My best guess is his doting parents sent word about Krishna knowing, hoping to give Suyodhana one last triumph before he died. So Ashwatthama knew Pandavas would be prepared, so he attacked Upapandavas. Panchal princes were already on his radar screen, a fact conspicuously absent in the intel given to Krishna.

Once the massacre was over, Krishna realized someone leaked the fact he knew. He realized it had to be Dhritharashtra and Gandhari. Which was why he warned Bheema to be careful.

It also explains why Krishna tore into Gandhari for her behaviour when she starts lamenting later.

It also explains why Bheema was completely unforgiving when before war, he was quite prepared to forgive.

So no, Krishna plotting the murder of Panchalas makes no sense.