~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 112

Regarding Krishna wanting throne for Yadavas. At the time of swayamvara, he would've known it was not possible. At the time, he would've known the heir would be the son born to Yudhishtira and Panchali.

Yes, Krishna was a man of extraordinary intellect, but he was only as capable of predicting the future as anyone else. Which is to say not at all capable of it.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

But what is imperial throne?
I thought Yudi was emperor then I read he was not

What powers are under the emperor? Was Jarasandha an emperor?

Ok I did do some study on this

Yudi become the Emperor after Ashwamedh. But Krishna didn't support him in his Ashwamedh campaign

Actually as per traditional meaning of emperor none among Yudhishtir and Jarasangh were Emperors. They were Samrats not Chakravarti Samrats. Although we might call them emperors but by strict definition only Chakravarti Samrat are emperors.

Chakravarti Samrats are the ones who subdue all the kings of the earth (read Jambudweep, for them earth finished with it) and all of them are subsverient to them.

As a Chakravarti Samrat he had the power to summon any king for army, money, precious gems etc. They could also affect foreign policies of others. Their sons would inherit the tag

Samrats are those who have major areas under their subsverience but not the entire Aryavarta (they don't venture to other states of Jambudweep it seems) there are independent kingdoms too, (like Kuru, Mathura n Panchal were independent while Jarasangh was the Samrat, Dwarika was independent while Yudhishtir was the Samrat) the king has no right on the non subsverient states, he can ask for army and money from the states under him.

The rank However is not hereditary, the sons don't inherit the Samrat tag

Till I read Shatapata Brahmana I was under the impression that after Rajasuya Yudhishtir became emperor.

No he did not. Not even close. Rajsuya only makes a king independent ruler.

After Rajsuya

1. An independent ruler does not pay a portion of his kingdom as taxes to another king.

2. An independent ruler does not have to send his army and warriors to fight for another king.

3. His kingdom becomes ancestral inheritance for his descendents and only an emperor can take away that right.Even if he gets defeated in battle. Till Rajasuya Pandavas were only in name Pandavas. A Rajasuya allowed their descendents to dissociate from Kuru name.

Eg. After Jarasandh is killed Magadah could not be annexed. Only a member of Vrihadratha family became the next king. Magadha army was still independent and could happily choose not to fight for Pandavas. Rama made Sugreev and Vibhishan kings similarly.

Till Rajasuya IP was part of Kuru teritory ruled by two different branches of same family. Just like Kosala kingdom - Uttara and Dakshina Kosala.

Panchalas. Who had five separate families as one.

Ashwamedha

It is Ashwamedha Yagya that gets a king a right to make other kingdoms his vassals,

1. So now he can collect taxes from vassals

2. Summon their army, to fight for him

But

3. Inheritance rights remain within the vassal king's family. Even if the male members are killed, the queens continue the lineage through Niyog.

Jarasandh was planning one when he was killed.

Yudhishtir did it

Rama did it

Uparichara Vasu did it

Bali the one who got sent to pataal did it.

vajpeya yagya

It is the sarvamedha yagya / vajpeya that allows the king to annex the kingdom he conquers amd appoint a person of his choice, who could be his own family member or anybody he likes as King or administrator for that teritory.

Only after Sarvamedha a king becomes Chakravartin Samrat

There are only 3 such chakravartins

Prithu son of Vena on whose name earth is called Prithvi

Bharat son of Rishabnath on whose name India is called Bhaarat

Asoka son of Bindusara who converted to buddhism so didnt do sarvamedha as it involved animal sacrifice but he was still called Chakravartin Samrat.

Ok to be on a safe side and since a week of mb us still left. I have another thread. So if the discussion gains momentum and we ended up finishing this one we can move to the next -

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/mahabharat/5168003/whatever-you-want-to-argue-about-2

Rajasuya is not meant to establish INDEPENDENCE, but SOVEREIGNTY as per apastamba srauta sutra

Ie, sovereignty over the kings who were there.

Sovereignty is supreme power regardless of title used.

A emperor by any other name is just as almighty.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Rajasuya is not meant to establish INDEPENDENCE, but SOVEREIGNTY as per apastamba srauta sutra

Ie, sovereignty over the kings who were there.

Sovereignty is supreme power regardless of title used.

A emperor by any other name is just as almighty.

Yes sovereign like no other kingdom has any right on them they are independent for their decisions and policies

Originally posted by: Krishnapanchali

Ok to be on a safe side and since a week of mb us still left. I have another thread. So if the discussion gains momentum and we ended up finishing this one we can move to the next -

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/mahabharat/5168003/whatever-you-want-to-argue-about-2

This would be a record in IF non AT/DT I mean a normal thread getting complete

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

This would be a record in IF non AT/DT I mean a normal thread getting complete

Yes it started as a Normal topic about panchali. And now its a thread full of information and knowledge sprawled on so many pages.

This thread will always be my quick reference point for all the future debates. I learned so much.

Thanks to you, Hearmeroar ,chilli , Nora. And everyone who contributed

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes sovereign like no other kingdom has any right on them they are independent for their decisions and policies

No sovereign means supreme among all.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

But would she travel for so long if she was pregnant? I mean roads weren’t there back then, traveling was tough. It is not mentioned that she was pregnant when she returned to Indraprastha

On the other hand -

From his birth onwards, Krishna performed all the auspicious rites. The child began to grow, like the moon in the bright half of the lunar month. That vanquisher of enemies learned all the vedas from Arjuna, with the four divisions and the ten branches, and the art of archery, everything known to man and god. That extremely powerful one became skilled in the science of all weapons. He learnt all the special acts of handling weapons. In acquisition, use and in circular motions, Dhananjaya was pleased that his son Soubhadra became his equal. He could bear everything from his enemies. He was blessed with all the auspicious marks. He was invincible in battle and had the shoulders of a bull. His wide mouth was like that of a serpent. The mighty archer was as proud as a lion. His valour was like that of a mad elephant. His voice was like thunderous clouds. His face was like that of the full moon. He was Krishna’s equal in

valour, energy, beauty and form. Bibhatsu24 saw in his son Maghavan25 himself.

This is from BORI CE, so Arjuna training Abhi is not an interpolation

Love u nora🤗

I guess different names of arjun is taken