Balaram on Dice Game - Page 19

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Yes absolutely. Also, Isn't Duryodhan his inlaw? Samba- Lakshmana?

So he had relationships on both sides. It would be win win on both aides.

My point is

1. He was not in it for property rights. Agreed.

2. He was in it for Panchali mainly, no, I disagree. - Reasons stated.

Yes that's what I said, Duryodhan was Krishna's Samdhi

Samdhis are people whose kids are married to each other

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes that's what I said, Duryodhan was Krishna's Samdhi

Samdhis are people whose kids are married to each other

Oh yes, I am poor in Hindi. Pardon me 🙈

Originally posted by: NoraSM

The way peace offering went from Kingdom to 5 villages, I guess it was to boast ego of Duryodhana, he is just the kind of guy who would think that they are settling for 5 villages because they know they will lose

But it was a hypothetical question whether they would have fought the war, if Dury had returned the Kingdom, so I think they went to Van for 12 years, thats evidence enough of their wish to avoid war and get the kingdom by completing this

No the villages were offered to show the greatness of Pandavas as to how great they are to try avoid the war, while ensuring that the Kauravas don't accept this offer

If things took a sudden change and Duryodhan agreed to give the five villages, then Pandavas would have had their ownership on the most strategic areas of Hastinapur+Indraprasth which would again keep them in a good negotiating power

In no way they could have anticipated the result of the war

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I do not think he was actually going to fight. Arjun was doing almost nothing in the war, Bhishma's removal was important. He knew Yudhishthir would never let him break his vow, hence he used this to provoke Arjun and Yudhishthir to DO SOMETHING. Also, he was human, I am sure he can lose aim sometimes out of anger. I don't think he was actually willing to fight.

The citation itself stresses on if ARJUN DOESN'T DO IT... He knew Arjun was hesitating. He was getting impatient. He was provoking Arjun.

Krishna was talking to Yudhishtira, not ARjuna. No question of provoking ARjuna in this scene.

But like he says, Arjuna was enough to take care of all of them, but he wasn't doing it. Therefore, Krishna was willing to step in.

My point was to say it wasn't as though Krishna wasn't risking himself. Although to go by the number of times he got personally attacked with arrows and such, charioteering was just as risky.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

He could have married a younger woman, the way he hated Pandavas, I don't think he would have settled for Parikshit, or that story where he berates Ass for killing Upapandavas is true and he didn't hold grudges against next gen Pandavas

I don't think that story is true, I can't think Duryodhan would have been so kind hearted. But maybe he wanted the progeny to continue and felt that with the death of these five Kuruvansh will get over.

Anyhow, yes he could have remarried and would have got a child by Niyog from her (long game) but I still think Parikshit would have been a better option for him

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Krishna was talking to Yudhishtira, not ARjuna. No question of provoking ARjuna in this scene.

But like he says, Arjuna was enough to take care of all of them, but he wasn't doing it. Therefore, Krishna was willing to step in.

My point was to say it wasn't as though Krishna wasn't risking himself. Although to go by the number of times he got personally attacked with arrows and such, charioteering was just as risky.

Yes he was speaking to Yudhishthir because whatever he does he knew Yudhishthir's permission was needed. It's like complaining to a father saying your son is not doing anything, if he doesn't, I'll go ahead and do it. He knew Yudhak won't let him go ahead and that would put pressure on Arjun. Then we also have his attempt to kill Bhishma/attack him in front of Arjuna- his plan worked and Arjuna got provoked. So he dis have that in mind.

If Krishna broke his vow, it would give Kauravas a big reason to point a finger at them. Bhishma wasn't exactly killed by unfair means as we discussed before, Karna's death could be justified by saying he was asharmi, for Drona- Yudhi didn't lie, he delayed the truth. So these weren't enough to blame the Pandavas. But if Krishna broke his vow, it would be a clear reason.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Yes he was speaking to Yudhishthir because whatever he does he knew Yudhishthir's permission was needed. It's like complaining to a father saying your son is not doing anything, if he doesn't, I'll go ahead and do it. He knew Yudhak won't let him go ahead and that would put pressure on Arjun. Then we also have his attempt to kill Bhishma/attack him in front of Arjuna- his plan worked and Arjuna got provoked. So he dis have that in mind.

If Krishna broke his vow, it would give Kauravas a big reason to point a finger at them. Bhishma wasn't exactly killed by unfair means as we discussed before, Karna's death could be justified by saying he was asharmi, for Drona- Yudhi didn't lie, he delayed the truth. So these weren't enough to blame the Pandavas. But if Krishna broke his vow, it would be a clear reason.

Vows weren't important to Krishna. Nor were rules. He was not Bheeshma or Yudhishtira, thank God😆. Krishna was quite prepared to break vows, break rules, cheat... all in the name of dharma.

______________________________

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09061.htm

eholding these exceedingly wonderful things and this worship offered to Duryodhana, the Pandavas headed by Vasudeva became ashamed. Hearing (invisible beings cry out) that Bhishma and Drona and Karna and Bhurishrava were slain unrighteously, they became afflicted with grief and wept in sorrow. Beholding the Pandavas filled with anxiety and grief, Krishna addressed them in a voice deep as that of the clouds or the drum, saying, "All of them were great car-warriors and exceedingly quick in the use of weapons! If ye had put forth all your prowess, even then ye could never have slain them in battle by fighting fairly! King Duryodhana also could never be slain in a fair encounter! The same is the case with all those mighty car-warriors headed by Bhishma! From desire of doing good to you, I repeatedly applied my powers of illusion and caused them to be slain by diverse means in battle. If I had not adopted such deceitful ways in battle, victory would never have been yours, nor kingdom, nor wealth! Those four were very high-souled warriors and regarded as Atirathas in the world. The very Regents of the Earth could not slay them in fair fight! Similarly, the son of Dhritarashtra, though fatigued when armed with the mace, could not be slain in fair fight by Yama himself armed with his bludgeon! You should not take it to heart that this foe of yours hath been slain deceitfully. When the number of one's foes becomes great, then destruction should be effected by contrivances and means. The gods themselves, in slaying the Asuras, have trod the same way. That way, therefore, that hath been trod by the gods, may be trod by all. We have been crowned with success. It is evening. We had better depart to our tents. Let us all, ye kings, take rest with our steeds and elephants and cars."

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08069.htm

This vow, O Partha, was adopted by thee before from foolishness. In consequence of that vow thou art now, from folly, desirous of perpetrating a sinful act. Why, O Partha, dost thou rush towards thy reverend superior for slaying him, without having resolved the exceedingly subtle course of morality that is, again, difficult of being understood? I will now tell thee, O son of Pandu, this mystery connected with morality, this mystery that was declared by Bhishma, by the righteous Yudhishthira, by Vidura otherwise called Kshatri, and by Kunti, of great celebrity. I will tell thee that mystery in all its details. Listen to it, O Dhananjaya! One who speaks truth is righteous. There is nothing higher than truth. Behold, however, truth as practised is exceedingly difficult to be understood as regards its essential attributes. Truth may be unutterable, and even falsehood may be utterable where falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. In a situation of peril to life and in marriage, falsehood becomes utterable. In a situation involving the loss of one's entire property, falsehood becomes utterable. On an occasion of marriage, or of enjoying a woman, or when life is in danger, or when one's entire property is about to be taken away, or for the sake of a Brahmana, falsehood may be uttered. These five kinds of falsehood have been declared to be sinless. On these occasions falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. He is a fool that practises truth without knowing the difference between truth and falsehood.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Not saying about the Shanti Parva that definitely was an instigation to fight and the war, I mean had they agreed to return Indraprasth at the end of 13 years

That might have been an acceptance that Indraprasth didn't belong to him, but definitely not a repentance to his crimes in the dice hall and also elsewhere

Here from Yana-sandhi parva, CE-

‘“Vasudeva said, ‘O Sanjaya! In the presence of the foremost among the Kurus and in Drona’s hearing, speak these words to the intelligent Dhritarashtra. “Offer a large number of sacrifices and donate stipends to the brahmanas. Enjoy yourselves with your sons and wives. A great danger confronts you. Distribute your riches among deserving ones. Have sons born out of love. Do good deeds towards those you love. The king132 will soon be victorious. That old debt is still impaled in my heart, because I have not repaid it. When I was far away, Krishna cried out, ‘Govinda!’133

Doesn't this makes it amply Clear one of the reason krishna went to war was PANCHALI. None of her husbands carried this pain utter helplessness of letting her down when she needed them most. Krishna did

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes that's what I said, Duryodhan was Krishna's Samdhi

Samdhis are people whose kids are married to each other

Ok i got the point. My bits below