Remove following characters from the epic - Page 4

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Okay, saw your updated question, so answering on Dushashan, Vidura and Keechak

Dushashan - if he wasn't around, Duryodhan would have had 98 other brothers to pick from to attempt to molest Draupadi, so nothing would have changed

Vidura - no difference in the story

Keechak - the Kauravas wouldn't have had any clue about where the Pandavas were, and there would have been no argument about whether they were successful in their disguise. Of course, it remains an open question whether Indraprastha would have been returned. Duryodhan could again have invited Yudhisthir to a third game of dice w/ the same conditions, ad infinitum. On what grounds would Yudi have declined?

Dusshashan-- He was definitely needed to disrobe, I mean yes there were 97 others (Vikarna wouldn't have done it for sure) but at any go someone was needed to disrobe, whatever be his name. That is not how we could discredit a character, in that case one might say Arjun is not needed, Nakul could have been as skillful as Arjun and he might have done everything what Arjun did. Aside I don't think that others would have actually even helped Duryodhan since the Sabha Parva clearly mentions that excluding the Chandal Chaukdi, everyone in the hall were sad at the state of affairs (which definitely includes Vikarna+97 others). The only option to discredit Dusshashan is to understand could Duryodhan do all the stuffs Dusshashan did by himself? He could have definitely brought Draupadi to the hall by force but disrobe!! I don't think Karna would have been able to order Duryodhan the way he did Dusshashan. Dushy was like a younger brother to him as well so he was able to ask him, but I don't think he could have done that to Dury. Whatever friendship etc. they might have had I don't think anyone could order the Yuvraj of a royal court. Maybe Karna could have himself tried to disrobe Draupadi. So yes in that case Dusshashan could be considered dispensable.

Vidur -- had he not been there, Pandavas could have ended in the Lakshagriha itself, so yes he was very much important

Keechak-- Already said not much to add

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Let's remove Shakuni from the story. Other than the game of dice, what changes?

Also, what if Draupadi was the one and only wife of the Pandavas? No Subhadra, no Hidimbi, no Uloopi...

Shakuni: Kauravas would've found another way to attack.

Panchali Q: nothing until war. Without Ghtotkatch, Pandavas would've likely lost.

P.S. Neither Hidimbi nor Uloopi went through rites of marriage with respective Pandava. KMG mentions the word husband in connection with Hidimbi, but CE entirely omits it. In both places, she makes a contract with Kunti for Bheema's stud service.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Dusshashan-- He was definitely needed to disrobe, I mean yes there were 97 others (Vikarna wouldn't have done it for sure) but at any go someone was needed to disrobe, whatever be his name. That is not how we could discredit a character, in that case one might say Arjun is not needed, Nakul could have been as skillful as Arjun and he might have done everything what Arjun did. Aside I don't think that others would have actually even helped Duryodhan since the Sabha Parva clearly mentions that excluding the Chandal Chaukdi, everyone in the hall were sad at the state of affairs (which definitely includes Vikarna+97 others). The only option to discredit Dusshashan is to understand could Duryodhan do all the stuffs Dusshashan did by himself? He could have definitely brought Draupadi to the hall by force but disrobe!! I don't think Karna would have been able to order Duryodhan the way he did Dusshashan. Dushy was like a younger brother to him as well so he was able to ask him, but I don't think he could have done that to Dury. Whatever friendship etc. they might have had I don't think anyone could order the Yuvraj of a royal court. Maybe Karna could have himself tried to disrobe Draupadi. So yes in that case Dusshashan could be considered dispensable.

Vidur -- had he not been there, Pandavas could have ended in the Lakshagriha itself, so yes he was very much important

Keechak-- Already said not much to add

Vikarna may not have done it, but I don't think that of all the other 97 bros, Duryodhan would have found nobody willing to do it

In the house of lac, the Pandavas smelt the lac and so figured out the plot anyway. Vidura did help them escape, but had he not been around, the only difference is that the Pandava escape wouldn't have been a secret to the Kauravas, and then Duryodhan wouldn't have been crowned yuvraj of Hastinapur. Of course, the tactics that both sides would have needed would have been different

Since Vyasa implies Vidura was Yudhishtira's biological father, I'd say a whole lot would've changed.😆

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Okay, saw your updated question, so answering on Dushashan, Vidura and Keechak

Dushashan - if he wasn't around, Duryodhan would have had 98 other brothers to pick from to attempt to molest Draupadi, so nothing would have changed

Vidura - no difference in the story

Keechak - the Kauravas wouldn't have had any clue about where the Pandavas were, and there would have been no argument about whether they were successful in their disguise. Of course, it remains an open question whether Indraprastha would have been returned. Duryodhan could again have invited Yudhisthir to a third game of dice w/ the same conditions, ad infinitum. On what grounds would Yudi have declined?

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Dusshashan-- He was definitely needed to disrobe, I mean yes there were 97 others (Vikarna wouldn't have done it for sure) but at any go someone was needed to disrobe, whatever be his name. That is not how we could discredit a character, in that case one might say Arjun is not needed, Nakul could have been as skillful as Arjun and he might have done everything what Arjun did. Aside I don't think that others would have actually even helped Duryodhan since the Sabha Parva clearly mentions that excluding the Chandal Chaukdi, everyone in the hall were sad at the state of affairs (which definitely includes Vikarna+97 others). The only option to discredit Dusshashan is to understand could Duryodhan do all the stuffs Dusshashan did by himself? He could have definitely brought Draupadi to the hall by force but disrobe!! I don't think Karna would have been able to order Duryodhan the way he did Dusshashan. Dushy was like a younger brother to him as well so he was able to ask him, but I don't think he could have done that to Dury. Whatever friendship etc. they might have had I don't think anyone could order the Yuvraj of a royal court. Maybe Karna could have himself tried to disrobe Draupadi. So yes in that case Dusshashan could be considered dispensable.

Vidur -- had he not been there, Pandavas could have ended in the Lakshagriha itself, so yes he was very much important

Keechak-- Already said not much to add

Didn't Vidur tell everyone that Dhruti was blind therefore he can't be King?

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Shakuni: Kauravas would've found another way to attack.

Panchali Q: nothing until war. Without Ghtotkatch, Pandavas would've likely lost.

P.S. Neither Hidimbi nor Uloopi went through rites of marriage with respective Pandava. KMG mentions the word husband in connection with Hidimbi, but CE entirely omits it. In both places, she makes a contract with Kunti for Bheema's stud service.

Without Abhimanyu too. Despite Krishna's suggestions and instructions it was only after the death of Abhimanyu that Arjun got into the fierce mode

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Vikarna may not have done it, but I don't think that of all the other 97 bros, Duryodhan would have found nobody willing to do it

In the house of lac, the Pandavas smelt the lac and so figured out the plot anyway. Vidura did help them escape, but had he not been around, the only difference is that the Pandava escape wouldn't have been a secret to the Kauravas, and then Duryodhan wouldn't have been crowned yuvraj of Hastinapur. Of course, the tactics that both sides would have needed would have been different

In the court none among the other 97 were having that sadist pleasure, so maybe he would not have found any

That's exactly what I said, a brother of Duryodhan who was ready to follow such orders was necessary, whatever his name was. (As I said it's like saying had Arjun not been there, Nakul could have had those skills and did what Arjun did). B

ut since Duryodhan and Karna could do the stuffs they ordered Dusshashan to do, hence Dusshashan wasn't needed

Vidur helped in the escape, it wasn't easy to construct a huge tunnel from one side after having found the truth in the Lakshagriha itself

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Didn't Vidur tell everyone that Dhruti was blind therefore he can't be King?

Even Bheeshm was of similar opinion.

If Vidur was actually the biological father of Yudhishtir, then actually he was doing something similar to Dhritrashtra. Being a Dasi Putra, he couldn't become the king (despite being the most capable) so was trying to get his biological son onto the throne. Just his plannings were better

Maybe that's why he suggested Dury's infanticide, I somehow can't believe that he had got indication that Duryodhan would turn out to be a criminal or that he was a Kali incarnation at his birth

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Didn't Vidur tell everyone that Dhruti was blind therefore he can't be King?

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01110.htm

And the children, having passed through the usual rites of their order, devoted themselves to vows and study. And they grew up into fine young men skilled in the Vedas and all athletic sports. And they became well-skilled in the practice of bow, in horsemanship, in encounters with mace, sword and shield, in the management of elephants in battle, and in the science of morality. Well-read in history and the Puranas and various branches of learning, and acquainted with the truths of the Vedas and their branches they acquired knowledge, which was versatile and deep. And Pandu, possessed of great prowess, excelled all men in archery while Dhritarashtra excelled all in personal strength, while in the three worlds there was no one equal to Vidura in devotion to virtue and in the knowledge of the dictates of morality. And beholding the restoration of the extinct line of Santanu, the saying became current in all countries that among mothers of heroes, the daughters of the king of Kasi were the first; that among countries Kurujangala was the first; that among virtuous men, Vidura was the first; that among cities Hastinapura was the first. Pandu became king, for Dhritarashtra, owing to the blindness, and Vidura, for his birth by a Sudra woman, did not obtain the kingdom.

No mention is made of this being a demand of Vidura: Dhritarashtra was never even considered for the title of king. The decision was probably taken by the collective elders - Satyavati, Bheeshma, Kripacharya, et al

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Even Bheeshm was of similar opinion.

If Vidur was actually the biological father of Yudhishtir, then actually he was doing something similar to Dhritrashtra. Being a Dasi Putra, he couldn't become the king (despite being the most capable) so was trying to get his biological son onto the throne. Just his plannings were better

Maybe that's why he suggested Dury's infanticide, I somehow can't believe that he had got indication that Duryodhan would turn out to be a criminal or that he was a Kali incarnation at his birth

Genetics were not what determined the parentage of a person. Like Dhritarashtra and Pandu, despite being Vyasa's sons, were not considered Brahmins. Vyasa did have sons by his own wife, and those were Brahmins. However, the sons he produced in Ambika and Ambalika were considered Vichitravirya's sons, since those 2 were Vichitravirya's wives. Similarly, Vidura too was treated as a son of Vichitravirya, since his birth was the equivalent of Ambika turning over a maid to her husband, and in that society, kings had sexual ownership of not just wives, but maids as well. However, since his mother was a shudra (not suta), he was not entitled to become king, but that didn't mean that he himself was a Shudra.

Also, even though he may have been Dharamraj incarnate, that didn't make him Yudhisthir's biological father any more than Rama was a father of Pradhyumna. Yudhisthir's biological father was Dharamraj, true, but not in Vidura's form. Besides, Kunti herself was a kshatrani - sister of Vasudev and married wife of Pandu, so no son of hers would have had any problems being king. However, Vidura and Yudhisthir did share a special bond due to the fact that one was Dharma reborn while the other was his son. Similarly, the Pandavas were not considered devas like, say, Indra's son Jayanta: they derived their rights from Pandu, the husband of their mom, rather than Indra, Yamaraj or Vayu, who actually produced them in Kunti