Balaram on Dice Game - Page 4

Originally posted by: Chiillii

There was absolutely no cheating in Dyut game, neither were there any rules that prevented Yudhishtir from walking away.

Players were free to either play by themselves or designate a proxy.

Now do note the timing of Dyut challenge, it was done after Rajasuya where Yudhishtir was coronated as emperor.

Rajasuya is not just yagya and feast.

Rajasuya is preceded by the kings army winning over all the territories.

During the Rajasuya chariot races, wrestling and other matches are also organized where the emperor designates his representatives who have to win to again showcase his supremacy.

Gambling match was also a part of the protocol.

Though it didn't happen then, but an elder in the family hosting it was ritual or tradition being followed and Yudhishtir had an oath that he will never refuse his elders that he made in front of Vyasa just after Rajasuya

So he did have to participate. He however was free to designate a proxy.

But he presumed that it would be Duryodhan against him. He was confident that he could defeat Duryodhan because it was gambling and not mace fight so he accepted the challenge. In the last minute Durydodhan brought Shakuni as proxy.

Yudhishtir still had the option of designating a proxy too. But he didn't hoping that it's just ritual and not a serious game they may win some wealth and end it with a last stake that Yudhishtir will win as an emperor.

Yudhishtir states in vanaparva that he went with an intention to win the Dyut and Hastinapur.

He meant as an emperor,

But once Yudhishtir started losing everything he must have realised he is being fooled and he walked in to a trap. But his ego and vanity and pride made him continue. He was now an emperor losing miserably in front of everyone, if he walked away he will become laughing stock in front of the whole world forever.

He was hoping at somepoint this will end, either Kouravas wouldn't dare or atleast elders will put an end to it, he will get the final stake and walk away as emperor.

He was wrong.

However Shakuni did not cheat, he did not have to cheat. Even the dice was not rigged at all. Shakuni played fair. Rules were also fair. It was just that Shakuni was Virat Kohli of Dyut and Yudhishtir was a novice who played Dyut like an occassionaly gully cricket player.

It was first Yudhishtir's stupidity and then his ego which was responsible for what happened

Thank You so much for explaining it

Originally posted by: Chiillii

There was absolutely no cheating in Dyut game, neither were there any rules that prevented Yudhishtir from walking away.

Players were free to either play by themselves or designate a proxy.

Now do note the timing of Dyut challenge, it was done after Rajasuya where Yudhishtir was coronated as emperor.

Rajasuya is not just yagya and feast.

Rajasuya is preceded by the kings army winning over all the territories.

During the Rajasuya chariot races, wrestling and other matches are also organized where the emperor designates his representatives who have to win to again showcase his supremacy.

Gambling match was also a part of the protocol.

Though it didn't happen then, but an elder in the family hosting it was ritual or tradition being followed and Yudhishtir had an oath that he will never refuse his elders that he made in front of Vyasa just after Rajasuya

So he did have to participate. He however was free to designate a proxy.

But he presumed that it would be Duryodhan against him. He was confident that he could defeat Duryodhan because it was gambling and not mace fight so he accepted the challenge. In the last minute Durydodhan brought Shakuni as proxy.

Yudhishtir still had the option of designating a proxy too. But he didn't hoping that it's just ritual and not a serious game they may win some wealth and end it with a last stake that Yudhishtir will win as an emperor.

Yudhishtir states in vanaparva that he went with an intention to win the Dyut and Hastinapur.

He meant as an emperor,

But once Yudhishtir started losing everything he must have realised he is being fooled and he walked in to a trap. But his ego and vanity and pride made him continue. He was now an emperor losing miserably in front of everyone, if he walked away he will become laughing stock in front of the whole world forever.

He was hoping at somepoint this will end, either Kouravas wouldn't dare or atleast elders will put an end to it, he will get the final stake and walk away as emperor.

He was wrong.

However Shakuni did not cheat, he did not have to cheat. Even the dice was not rigged at all. Shakuni played fair. Rules were also fair. It was just that Shakuni was Virat Kohli of Dyut and Yudhishtir was a novice who played Dyut like an occassionaly gully cricket player.

It was first Yudhishtir's stupidity and then his ego which was responsible for what happened

It was stupidity indeed. A novice playing against a skilled Shakuni had no chance.

Balarama actually confuses me.

Then Valarama, resembling in hue the milk of the cow and the Kunda flower and the moon and the silver and the lotus root and who wore a wreath made of wild flowers and who had the ploughshare for his arms, spake to the lotuseyed one, saying, 'O Krishna, I do not see that the practice of virtue leads to any good or that unrighteous practices can cause evil, since the magnanimous Yudhishthira is in this miserable state, with matted hair, a resident of the wood, and for his garment wearing the bark of trees. And Duryodhana is now ruling the earth, and the ground doth not yet swallow him up. From this, a person of limited sense would believe a vicious course of life is preferable to a virtuous one. When Duryodhana is in a flourishing state and Yudhishthira, robbed of his throne, is suffering thus, what should people do in such a matter?--This is the doubt that is now perplexing all men.

^ Here Balarama appears so sympathetic towards Yudhisthira.

What will that sinner, the chieftain of the earth, say to the departed forefathers of his race, when the wretch will meet them in the world to come? Having hurled from the throne his in-offensive sons, will he be able to declare that he had treated them in a blameless way? He doth not now see with his mind's eye how he hath become so sightless, and on account of what act he hath grown blind among the kings of this entire earth. Is it not because he hath banished Kunit's son from his kingdom? I have no doubt that Vichitravirya's son, when he with his sons perpetrated this inhuman act, beheld on the spot where dead bodies are burnt, flowering trees of a golden hue.

^ Balarama on Dhritarashtra.

Either Balarama didn't possess clarity or he was vainly trying to be neutral. When one side has greater amount of vices and negligible virtues, neutrality fails and favours the wicked and the vile.

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Balarama actually confuses me.

Then Valarama, resembling in hue the milk of the cow and the Kunda flower and the moon and the silver and the lotus root and who wore a wreath made of wild flowers and who had the ploughshare for his arms, spake to the lotuseyed one, saying, 'O Krishna, I do not see that the practice of virtue leads to any good or that unrighteous practices can cause evil, since the magnanimous Yudhishthira is in this miserable state, with matted hair, a resident of the wood, and for his garment wearing the bark of trees. And Duryodhana is now ruling the earth, and the ground doth not yet swallow him up. From this, a person of limited sense would believe a vicious course of life is preferable to a virtuous one. When Duryodhana is in a flourishing state and Yudhishthira, robbed of his throne, is suffering thus, what should people do in such a matter?--This is the doubt that is now perplexing all men.

^ Here Balarama appears so sympathetic towards Yudhisthira.

What will that sinner, the chieftain of the earth, say to the departed forefathers of his race, when the wretch will meet them in the world to come? Having hurled from the throne his in-offensive sons, will he be able to declare that he had treated them in a blameless way? He doth not now see with his mind's eye how he hath become so sightless, and on account of what act he hath grown blind among the kings of this entire earth. Is it not because he hath banished Kunit's son from his kingdom? I have no doubt that Vichitravirya's son, when he with his sons perpetrated this inhuman act, beheld on the spot where dead bodies are burnt, flowering trees of a golden hue.

^ Balarama on Dhritarashtra.

Either Balarama didn't possess clarity or he was vainly trying to be neutral. When one side has greater amount of vices and negligible virtues, neutrality fails and favours the wicked and the vile.

He was supporting Yudi against Dury in the incident I have mentioned too, he said Yudi has right on throne but he is ready to share it with Dury therefore Dury should be complacent and accept peace offering, all he was saying is that they should not accuse Sakuni of cheating

Originally posted by: NoraSM

He was supporting Yudi against Dury in the incident I have mentioned too, he said Yudi has right on throne but he is ready to share it with Dury therefore Dury should be complacent and accept peace offering, all he was saying is that they should not accuse Sakuni of cheating

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

His utterances to buttress this statement were logical actually.

Bheeshma says in dice hall Shakuni did not cheat. Bheeshma even adds Yudhishtira admitted there was no cheating. PANCHALI is the one who first states it, then it gets taken up by others. Quick thinking on her part TBH.

Maybe unfair to Shakuni. But when the other side is trying to kill you, you're not looking to die fairly. At least, SHE wasn't. Panchali waa all about actions and consequences while the rest were about how best to save face.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

There was absolutely no cheating in Dyut game, neither were there any rules that prevented Yudhishtir from walking away.

Players were free to either play by themselves or designate a proxy.

Now do note the timing of Dyut challenge, it was done after Rajasuya where Yudhishtir was coronated as emperor.

Rajasuya is not just yagya and feast.

Rajasuya is preceded by the kings army winning over all the territories.

During the Rajasuya chariot races, wrestling and other matches are also organized where the emperor designates his representatives who have to win to again showcase his supremacy.

Gambling match was also a part of the protocol.

Though it didn't happen then, but an elder in the family hosting it was ritual or tradition being followed and Yudhishtir had an oath that he will never refuse his elders that he made in front of Vyasa just after Rajasuya

So he did have to participate. He however was free to designate a proxy.

But he presumed that it would be Duryodhan against him. He was confident that he could defeat Duryodhan because it was gambling and not mace fight so he accepted the challenge. In the last minute Durydodhan brought Shakuni as proxy.

Yudhishtir still had the option of designating a proxy too. But he didn't hoping that it's just ritual and not a serious game they may win some wealth and end it with a last stake that Yudhishtir will win as an emperor.

Yudhishtir states in vanaparva that he went with an intention to win the Dyut and Hastinapur.

He meant as an emperor,

But once Yudhishtir started losing everything he must have realised he is being fooled and he walked in to a trap. But his ego and vanity and pride made him continue. He was now an emperor losing miserably in front of everyone, if he walked away he will become laughing stock in front of the whole world forever.

He was hoping at somepoint this will end, either Kouravas wouldn't dare or atleast elders will put an end to it, he will get the final stake and walk away as emperor.

He was wrong.

However Shakuni did not cheat, he did not have to cheat. Even the dice was not rigged at all. Shakuni played fair. Rules were also fair. It was just that Shakuni was Virat Kohli of Dyut and Yudhishtir was a novice who played Dyut like an occassionaly gully cricket player.

It was first Yudhishtir's stupidity and then his ego which was responsible for what happened

Pretty well explained. The theories predominant these days that he was bounded to play or that Shakuni cheated is just to let him Scot free of this henious crime

But I want to understand why didn't he say at the beginning that if not Duryodhan then either Dusshashan or Karna should play on his behalf as he doesn't want to play with Shakuni

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Pretty well explained. The theories predominant these days that he was bounded to play or that Shakuni cheated is just to let him Scot free of this henious crime

But I want to understand why didn't he say at the beginning that if not Duryodhan then either Dusshashan or Karna should play on his behalf as he doesn't want to play with Shakuni

More than this, Sakuni was betting what belonged to Duryodhana, how can one bet something which doesn't belong to him?

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Bheeshma says in dice hall Shakuni did not cheat. Bheeshma even adds Yudhishtira admitted there was no cheating. PANCHALI is the one who first states it, then it gets taken up by others. Quick thinking on her part TBH.

Maybe unfair to Shakuni. But when the other side is trying to kill you, you're not looking to die fairly. At least, SHE wasn't. Panchali waa all about actions and consequences while the rest were about how best to save face.

Best would have been her blaming Yudhishtira for what happened instead of accusing Sakuni of cheating, I do love her but she just went home with someone who treated her like his property and the whole blame goes on Sakuni. This is not fair and not expected of an empress but I agree she was trying to save herself

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Bheeshma says in dice hall Shakuni did not cheat. Bheeshma even adds Yudhishtira admitted there was no cheating. PANCHALI is the one who first states it, then it gets taken up by others. Quick thinking on her part TBH.

Maybe unfair to Shakuni. But when the other side is trying to kill you, you're not looking to die fairly. At least, SHE wasn't. Panchali waa all about actions and consequences while the rest were about how best to save face.

Going by these I think Shakuni probably hadn't cheated Draupadi felt it was a good way get free so started this accusations. Not saying that Draupadi was wrong in doing so but I do think Shakuni was fair at least this time

He was a better player than Yudhishtir. Let's give him the due when It's due