Your thoughts on... Karn? - Page 23

Originally posted by: prerna4rishav

If you read the posts carefully, I have compared Arjun's silence with Karna's lewd remarks, Arjun's crooked sense of 'Dharma' with Karna's adharm. Calling Drau names dharm or adharm isn't even a question.


The man who won her in Swayamvar, the man who thought she could be put at 'stake', those 5 men who are known to be Maharathi, yet reduced to mute puppets in that Dyut Sabha, are equally Adharmi to me than the one who ordered disrobing her. So, Krishna is, was and will be the Mahanayaka of MB, but Arjuna certainly is not the Nayak.


Drau's calling Karn Sutaputra or not, has nothing to do with her disrobing, because that comment doesn't justify Karn's actions. As I already clarified, my reference to Drau and Pandavas taunts on Karn's 'sutaputra' was to do with Karn's feeling jealous of Pandavas all the time.

Arjun was the only one who spoke up and said that Panchali was not a slave because Yudhishthir lost her after he lost himself. Not even Bheem spoke up. Also, how can you equate silence with open suggestion of disrobing a woman? Arjun was a slave of Duryodhan, so was Yudhi. Had anyone said anything Dury was in full right to murder them or have them executed. Draupadi was the one who was NOT her dasi and hence Arjun made a clear point here by pointing it out. Also note Arjun was weaponless so in case you suggest a war right then it was not exactly possible in bare hands.

Arjun was not perfect, infact I hold him accountable for a lot of other things that he did wrong. But I must implore you to think about what you said - a silence where one had no option (yet he DID SPEAK) and words that literally suggest STRIPPING a woman NAKED in OPEN PUBLIC.

I do not think Mahabharat has any Nayak or Mahanayak. I feel it's a story of human emotions and very importantly, a story of politics and statecraft. It would be good if we stop looking at this text from the lens of a Greek epic or tragedies such is Iliad and Odyssey which has one hero.

Infact, I don't think there is one particular Khalnaayak either, not even Duryodhan. All characters are grey, you can point out the goods and the bads in each character and yet there will always be discussion.

Choosing one Nayak and one Nayika for the epic is gross simplification. It's a story of characters of all kinds of all types. If there is any Nayak of this epic, it is the story. It's an epic where you find every theme and every kind binding into each other. Be it interpolation or not.

So IMO it's best to not choose and pick Nayaks or Khalnayaks from the story.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Good that you didn't watch Suryaputra Karna. The Karna there reached out to the Dyut Sabha only to stop the game. Duryodhan had kept his plans hidden from him because he knew Karna would never allow this plan to succeed, however he somehow found out. He was constantly begging Duryodhan to stop (even more than Vidur ji). After winning over Arjun, the gracious Duryodhan there declared that Arjun would not be his slave but the slave of his best friend Karna. Our danveer there immidiately freed Arjun, but Duryodhan said that he had only transferred onto him the ownership of Arjun not the powers to free him. (No idea what else ownership means?

Once Draupadi was won over, he literally prayed Duryodhan to not do anything wrong to her. He constantly shouted in her favour. There was no need for any Vikarna here. Karna carried out his duties better

Duryodhan then asked him, what is a girl who has relations with more than four men called, he kept mum, Duryodhan asked the answer three or four times and then poor Karna had to admit that she is called a wh**e. And then Duryodhan claimed that disrobe of a wh**e isn't wrong and ordered for it.

Karna could never forgive himself for not being able to stop this Adharma, he broke his friendship with Duryodhan the very next moment and became completely a tragic hero. He said that he is indebted to Duryodhan hence can't change his loyalties but would no longer consider Duryodhan his friend

The show had its Duryodhan in a complete Devdas mode for the next 13 years with the sole aim of getting back his friend.

Headache it was

Holy Jesus Christ 😲😲 Did they really show all these? What was the writer smoking while writing the story? 🤓

No wonder you get to see so many Karn fans these days😆 Believing these fanfictions as real Mahabharat & arguing in favour of such a pathetic scumbag 🥱 There should be censor board for tv too. Padmavati's bare midriff is nothing in front of these blatant murders of Mahabharata. If there was a censor board for tv, first & foremost this Karn Glorification would have been banned.

Originally posted by: prerna4rishav

We judge Arjun based on the Dwapar Yuga rules that he could not speak up against Elder Brother, because that was the norm back then. But we would judge Karna's comments on calling Drau a 'w****' based on today's times because that is what is convenient to us😆. A woman being married to 5 men WAS an unusual event and based on THOSE times, Karna's words would not seem out of place.

Not supporting his encouragement in disrobing Drau, that was disgusting. But one can clearly see how much the 'abhimaan' of Kshatriyas bothered him by then. That happened due to multiple taunts and resistances from this same group in various occasions. I follow KMG, so I would take that Drau's comments, Arjun and Bhimsen's repeated comments on his caste indeed happened. So it doesnt matter how loving his parents are, the caste did bother him, because the 'proud' Pandavas made sure one never forgets that, which was disgusting. So it's not a question to Karna that 'why don't you settle with your parents', rather the question is to the Pandavas, that why don't they let one be with their caste, why did they everytime have to bring his caste into the picture whenever it clashed with Karna's 'ucchakaankshya'.

If this was a jibe to my previous comment, let me tell you, I am not judging Karn by today's standard. In fact, in Dwapar Yuga, women had better status & respect than we have today. Polyandry was quite normal those days & Draupadi's marriage to the 5 brothers didn't cause such uproar like these tv serials try to portray. And Draupadi was not an ordinary woman either. She was a respected empress. Do you really believe Karn passed on those lewd comments & cheered on for her disrobing just to have his sweet revenge of the rejection he got in swayamvar (that too is questionable)? 😆 He was actually enjoying the whole scene & he relished the humiliation it brought upon the Pandavas. Yes, he wanted things to go as far as a woman's disrobing in public just to enjoy the humiliation of her husbands.

And btw Arjun did speak up. He supported Draupadi's claim that she can't be staked by Yudhistira as Yudhistir lost himself before her. I am not defending Arjun here, but seriously....a helpless slave who had been stripped off his status, power & weapons & who still speaks up is being compared to a free willed King, who sat in the sabha on his free will with his friends & cheered on for such a horrid action? Really? Where's the similarity?

Originally posted by: prerna4rishav

If you read the posts carefully, I have compared Arjun's silence with Karna's lewd remarks, Arjun's crooked sense of 'Dharma' with Karna's adharm. Calling Drau names dharm or adharm isn't even a question.

1. It is a faulty idea that Karna was always insulted by the proud Pandavas. Or that the Pandavas never let him be.

Except in Rangbhoomi, there is not a single instance in Mbh before the dice-game where Pandavas were taunted Karna for his caste. Rather, it is Karna who supported all of Suyodhana's conspiracies right from childhood (mentioned in KMG).

So, it was Karna who was not ready to let the Pandavas be.

2. You can trust whichever version you prefer. If KMG is your fav, then please note that it mentions BOTH Karna's rejection and failure. In case of such contradictions, it is imperative that we crosscheck with other Sanskrit Editions.

3. Regarding judging Karna's w**** comment through context of those days, there are 2 parts:

i. The assumption that polyandry was a taboo in those days is incorrect. Rather, it is now that polyandry is unacceptable except in remote tribal areas of Himachal and Tibet.

In Mbh era, Northern Kurus, Madra, etc were accustomed to polyandry.

Karna was orthodox which is why he ****shamed Draupadi.

ii. Second point, chalo, let's accept for the sake of argument that Karna was only speaking with the norms of those days.

His opinion of Draupadi being unchaste is not a problem here. It is what he said afterward which is the main issue.

He said -

Since Draupadi has many husbands, she is unchaste. Go ahead and strip her naked. Actually, take her to the servants' quarter where she can work as a slave ("serve her master" - you get the gist of how)

So, you see, it is not Karna's opinion of Panchali which is problematic. It is what he commands after which is the problem.

4. Finally, I am not sure how much Karna felt bad at being called a sutaputra. Because he himself addressed his charioteer as sutaputra.

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

Holy Jesus Christ 😲😲 Did they really show all these? What was the writer smoking while writing the story? 🤓

No wonder you get to see so many Karn fans these days😆 Believing these fanfictions as real Mahabharat & arguing in favour of such a pathetic scumbag 🥱 There should be censor board for tv too. Padmavati's bare midriff is nothing in front of these blatant murders of Mahabharata. If there was a censor board for tv, first & foremost this Karn Glorification would have been banned.

It's only one episode I mentioned, if you start watching every episode you would seriously feel like banging your head. To add a few pointers how they butchered everything to make Karna tragic hero (adding few funny and few horrific points)

1) Sutas were treated in the worst possible way in Hastinapur. They lived underground and were not allowed to come out in open since the high caste public could not share the sunlight with Sutas(not even Shrudas have been treated in this way in any historical era) they could come out only if asked by the kings or in night

2) Shon, Karna's brother (son of Adhirath and Radha) was killed in the presence of Vidurji and Bheeshm for the having recited Vedic hymns despite being a Suta by being forced to drink molten iron (can't tell you how horrific that scene was)

3) Shishupal entered Draupadi's room during Swayamwar and attempted to r**e her, but Karna reached the spot on time and saved her

4) Sutas at the end of their Suta siksha were required to give a Suta practical exam where the external examiner was Bheeshm himself (like he had no order work in life). Dusshashan accompanied him just to mock Sutas

5) Karna was very vocal about Pandavas being given the barren land of Indraprasth during partition. He even fought Duryodhan and Bheeshm for it

6) Karna's foster Tauji had his hands amputed because he once by mistake touched a weapon and Sutas could not touch them

I don't remember more since I had watched it years back. You could say it was a fanfiction on StarBharat

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

It's only one episode I mentioned, if you start watching every episode you would seriously feel like banging your head. To add a few pointers how they butchered everything to make Karna tragic hero (adding few funny and few horrific points)

1) Sutas were treated in the worst possible way in Hastinapur. They lived underground and were not allowed to come out in open since the high caste public could not share the sunlight with Sutas(not even Shrudas have been treated in this way in any historical era) they could come out only if asked by the kings or in night

2) Shon, Karna's brother (son of Adhirath and Radha) was killed in the presence of Vidurji and Bheeshm for the having recited Vedic hymns despite being a Suta by being forced to drink molten iron (can't tell you how horrific that scene was)

3) Shishupal entered Draupadi's room during Swayamwar and attempted to r**e her, but Karna reached the spot on time and saved her

4) Sutas at the end of their Suta siksha were required to give a Suta practical exam where the external examiner was Bheeshm himself (like he had no order work in life). Dusshashan accompanied him just to mock Sutas

5) Karna was very vocal about Pandavas being given the barren land of Indraprasth during partition. He even fought Duryodhan and Bheeshm for it

6) Karna's foster Tauji had his hands amputed because he once by mistake touched a weapon and Sutas could not touch them

I don't remember more since I had watched it years back. You could say it was a fanfiction on StarBharat

My head is spinning really

@Bold : No thanks I can feel the pain just by hearing about it, I have absolutely no wish to experience it personally 😳

@ 1, 4, 6 : What? 😲

@ 2, 5 : Double "What? "

@ 3: "What? " to the power infinity

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

It's only one episode I mentioned, if you start watching every episode you would seriously feel like banging your head. To add a few pointers how they butchered everything to make Karna tragic hero (adding few funny and few horrific points)

1) Sutas were treated in the worst possible way in Hastinapur. They lived underground and were not allowed to come out in open since the high caste public could not share the sunlight with Sutas(not even Shrudas have been treated in this way in any historical era) they could come out only if asked by the kings or in night

2) Shon, Karna's brother (son of Adhirath and Radha) was killed in the presence of Vidurji and Bheeshm for the having recited Vedic hymns despite being a Suta by being forced to drink molten iron (can't tell you how horrific that scene was)

3) Shishupal entered Draupadi's room during Swayamwar and attempted to r**e her, but Karna reached the spot on time and saved her

4) Sutas at the end of their Suta siksha were required to give a Suta practical exam where the external examiner was Bheeshm himself (like he had no order work in life). Dusshashan accompanied him just to mock Sutas

5) Karna was very vocal about Pandavas being given the barren land of Indraprasth during partition. He even fought Duryodhan and Bheeshm for it

6) Karna's foster Tauji had his hands amputed because he once by mistake touched a weapon and Sutas could not touch them

I don't remember more since I had watched it years back. You could say it was a fanfiction on StarBharat

Is this show based on some author's book by any chance?

Character of Shon means it maybe based on Shivaji Satham's Mrityunjaya which was a work of art if you consider the language, but a headache with regards to authenticity. This book was one of the regional literature in relatively modern times which was responsible for making Karna into a hero (along with few others).

All these regional writers wrote well if you consider it as their original story but created havoc on Ved Vyasa's original Sanskrit Mahabharata.

Originally posted by: Eloquent

Is this show based on some author's book by any chance?

Character of Shon means it maybe based on Shivaji Satham's Mrityunjaya which was a work of art if you consider the language, but a headache with regards to authenticity. This book was one of the regional literature in relatively modern times which was responsible for making Karna into a hero (along with few others).

All these regional writers wrote well if you consider it as their original story but created havoc on Ved Vyasa's original Sanskrit Mahabharata.

It was a completely fan fiction on Star Mahabharata and the various books written on Karna.

Shon and Vrushali names were taken from Mrityunjay for sure.

But trust me I have read Mrityunjay and even that book could not do the level of whitewashing and glorification as this show did.

This story literally had no logic or rationale. In fact I was ready to accept it as a completely fictuous story. The way story was progressing, at least a month during the start, I felt that probably they will make Karna join the Pandavas since childhood Pandavas were friends to childhood Karna. Even later during Virat Parva, Duryodhan was about to find out Pandavas, but Karna saved them from being exposed

Some elements of glorification is expected when you are making a show by someone's point of view, but if you are making something on Itihaas at least stick to the basics of it and the society of that time.

I mean if someone writes a story on Duryodhan, I would not object if he is told to be more efficient and rightful for the throne than Yudhishtir or if it is said that he was a better mace fighter than Bheem, but if they make a point that Duryodhan was very pious and while in the Dyut Sabha, he felt that Draupadi had got tired by all the screaming and realized that there was no spare chairs, so he offered her to sit on his lap to comfort her, then that will not be acceptable.

This is the kind of justification which was done to Karna in SPK. I would have been fine had he remained silent during Dyur Sabha, but him being pestered to utter those words against Draupadi despite him being the only one to speak in favour of Draupadi (Vikarna wasn't there) made it unbearable

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

It was a completely fan fiction on Star Mahabharata and the various books written on Karna.

Shon and Vrushali names were taken from Mrityunjay for sure.

But trust me I have read Mrityunjay and even that book could not do the level of whitewashing and glorification as this show did.

This story literally had no logic or rationale. In fact I was ready to accept it as a completely fictuous story. The way story was progressing, at least a month during the start, I felt that probably they will make Karna join the Pandavas since childhood Pandavas were friends to childhood Karna. Even later during Virat Parva, Duryodhan was about to find out Pandavas, but Karna saved them from being exposed

Some elements of glorification is expected when you are making a show by someone's point of view, but if you are making something on Itihaas at least stick to the basics of it and the society of that time.

I mean if someone writes a story on Duryodhan, I would not object if he is told to be more efficient and rightful for the throne than Yudhishtir or if it is said that he was a better mace fighter than Bheem, but if they make a point that Duryodhan was very pious and while in the Dyut Sabha, he felt that Draupadi had got tired by all the screaming and realized that there was no spare chairs, so he offered her to sit on his lap to comfort her, then that will not be acceptable.

This is the kind of justification which was done to Karna in SPK. I would have been fine had he remained silent during Dyur Sabha, but him being pestered to utter those words against Draupadi despite him being the only one to speak in favour of Draupadi (Vikarna wasn't there) made it unbearable

Looks like this Karn wasn't fond of Dury at all 😆 Wonder what was he doing with him then😆 How were the Pandavas portrayed? I guess they turned Bheem & Arjun into somewhat villainous characters who made it impossible for Karn to even breath freely? 😆😆