With whom did you sympathize more? - Page 2

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I pity the fool who pits women against women.

Both women are equally sympathetic. It is not Kashbibai's fault that despite her love and devotion her husband married another woman. It is not Mastani's fault that she fell in love with a man who despite being married didn't do anything to dissuade her advances. I feel sorry for Kashibai to have to share her husband with another woman and lose face amidst her elite peers. I feel sorry for Mastani who never got the rights and recognition of being Bajirao's wife.

I am furious at our history where men could do as they pleased, marry who they pleased, fuck who they pleased and no one raised an eyebrow. It irks me that even today, decades after we are supposed to be smarter we discuss who was more sympathetic Kashibai or Mastani, but no one is discussing damn that Bajirao sure was a fuckboi.

That's why I've also said that it's hard to choose.

But to be honest it wasn't JUST Bajirao either.

Mastani herself was the daughter of a king that had dunno how many official wives and mistresses.#

At the time, many women's 'worth' was through the heirs they could produces.. or who else they could align to their side to hold onto whatever power they could get.

But this wasn't limited at India.

look at the Ottoman Empire, at Japan, China.

Women were treated as 'commodities' everywhere.

The mentality then was very different from now and having many wives and 'harems' was practicted throughout Asia and the Middle East. And in the West.. well.. thjey still has mistresses and such..

Originally posted by: MoonOrchid

pfffft... hard choice.

1. I did understand that Bajirao fell hopelessly inlove with Matani and viceversa..

2. But I've also felt what Kashibai was saying about pride and being hurt..

3. Yet in THAT ERA... the rulers were allowed..to have multiple wives, multiple favourites.. so I guess that real Kashi would have bbeen used with the system and there were, in reality, other 'favourites' by the time mastani got there. So maybe Kashi wasn't suffering because of feelings necessarily.. maybe just because Mastani was Muslim..or because she gained influence over Bajirao.. (again we are judging with modern eyes the habits if that century..)

I went with Kashibai because I wouldn't want to be EVER in such position.. but I have to add I can also understand that, if love strikes.. all reason goes out of the window.. (and also that probbaly in real life kashibai wasn't THAt bothered about Mastani's love for Bajirao.. but rather by the possibility of losing her influence in the day to day ruling of the palace or whatever power women had)/

The thing is that peshwas were prime ministers and not the king, so none of the peshwas had taken a second wife, till the first was alive.... So Bajirao and mastani were looked down upon for their love story.....

Also cause kashi bai had such a good heart, she looked after mastani'd son like her own..... It was only her first son's wife who was too rigid and orthodox and hence disliked shamsher Bahadur

Originally posted by: anjs

The thing is that peshwas were prime ministers and not the king, so none of the peshwas had taken a second wife, till the first was alive.... So Bajirao and mastani were looked down upon for their love story.....

Also cause kashi bai had such a good heart, she looked after mastani'd son like her own..... It was only her first son's wife who was too rigid and orthodox and hence disliked shamsher Bahadur

ohh.. really?

But then WHY did he have a harem - where mastani lived?

It means he had mistresses at least, right? or?

or is this just to do with legitimacy? One wife- one line of inheritance??

And I guess all ministers and noblemen had mistresses... so then the issue was the 'extra wife' or the 'Muslim wife'?

Anmd yes I've read that Kashi took care of mastani's son after her death.. But I just assumed they all kinda 'polled' together in taking care of Najirao's kids- wives and mistresses and favourites and whatnot..

Originally posted by: MoonOrchid

ohh.. really?

But then WHY did he have a harem - where mastani lived?

It means he had mistresses at least, right? or?

or is this just to do with legitimacy? One wife- one line of inheritance??

And I guess all ministers and noblemen had mistresses... so then the issue was the 'extra wife' or the 'Muslim wife'?

Anmd yes I've read that Kashi took care of mastani's son after her death.. But I just assumed they all kinda 'polled' together in taking care of Najirao's kids- wives and mistresses and favourites and whatnot..

Don't know about the harem, if you are talking about the movie (i haven't watched it yet) then don't trust SLB and his creative liberties..... Bajirao was supposedly a very just and fair person and faithful to his wife... That's why people were surprised of his love for mastani...here is an excerpt from kashi's wiki page

Kashibai was married to Bajirao I on March 11, 1720 in a household ceremony at Saswad.[9] The marriage was a happy one and Bajirao was essentially monogamous by nature and the family tradition.[10] He always treated his wife with love and respect.[1] Kashibai and Bajirao had four sons together. Balaji Baji Rao (nicknamed "Nanasaheb"), was born in 1721 and was later appointed Peshwa by Shahu in 1740 after Bajirao's death. Their second son Ramchandra died young. Their third son Raghunath Rao (nicknamed "Ragoba")[4] served as the Peshwa during 1773–1774 while their fourth son Janardhan Rao also died young.[7] Since mostly male members of the Peshwa family were out on the battlefield, Kashibai controlled the day-to-day running of the empire, especially of Pune. And it was possible because of her social nature.[1]

Bajirao took a second wife, Mastani, the daughter of Hindu king Chhatrasal of Bundelkhand from his Muslim concubine. The marriage was purely a political one and Bajirao had accepted her hand out of sheer regard for the noble sentiments of the Bundela king.[10] However, this marriage was not accepted by the Bhat family. Kashibai is also noted to have not played any role in the household war waged by the Peshwa family against Mastani.[11] Historian Pandurang Balkawade notes that various historical documents suggest that she was ready to accept Mastani as Bajirao's second wife, but could not do so going against her mother-in-law Radhabai and brother-in-law Chimaji Appa[12]

As the Brahmins of Pune boycotted the Peshwa family due to Bajirao's relations with Mastani, Chimaji Appa and Nanasaheb resolved to force the separation of Bajirao and Mastani in early 1740

^^ well it does say 'essentially monogamous'.. which could mean anything- as in 'he had many concubines but just a wife'..

It says that the Bajirao-Mastani marriage was a political one and Kashibai seems to have not taken part in the war waged by the family against this marriage .

Also: Kashibai ' was ready to accept Mastani as Bajirao's second wife, but could not do so going against her mother-in-law Radhabai'. What this shows is that Kashibai wasn't against this- and that her and Mastani must have come to some sort of understanding. If course, we cannot know how she truly felt - but I also think the customs and thinking of that era were VERY different from ours.

BTW: I've seen the movie and Mastani lived in some harem where dancers (favourites?) lived, before being moved into her own abode within the palace.

* I don't trust Wiki much.. it can be changed a lot and not always giving the true facts.

Originally posted by: MoonOrchid

That's why I've also said that it's hard to choose.

But to be honest it wasn't JUST Bajirao either.

Mastani herself was the daughter of a king that had dunno how many official wives and mistresses.#

At the time, many women's 'worth' was through the heirs they could produces.. or who else they could align to their side to hold onto whatever power they could get.

But this wasn't limited at India.

look at the Ottoman Empire, at Japan, China.

Women were treated as 'commodities' everywhere.

The mentality then was very different from now and having many wives and 'harems' was practicted throughout Asia and the Middle East. And in the West.. well.. thjey still has mistresses and such..

Of course, it wasn't only Bajirao, and it wasn't just India.

Women were treated as pawns in trade deals and military alliances or they were treated as sexual objects as men built a harem of concubines. In extreme cases, women would be executed if they didn't meet the whims of the king (e.g. Henry VIII).

I honestly think it is problematic that Bajirao-Mastani or even Jodha-Akbar were made. Neither of them was as romantic as in their fictionalized depictions. Both were military alliances. Both men had many wives who were tools for either heirs, alliances, or sex.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I pity the fool who pits women against women.

Both women are equally sympathetic. It is not Kashbibai's fault that despite her love and devotion her husband married another woman. It is not Mastani's fault that she fell in love with a man who despite being married didn't do anything to dissuade her advances. I feel sorry for Kashibai to have to share her husband with another woman and lose face amidst her elite peers. I feel sorry for Mastani who never got the rights and recognition of being Bajirao's wife.

I am furious at our history where men could do as they pleased, marry who they pleased, fuck who they pleased and no one raised an eyebrow. It irks me that even today, decades after we are supposed to be smarter we discuss who was more sympathetic Kashibai or Mastani, but no one is discussing damn that Bajirao sure was a fuckboi.

This is exactly the reason why I would sympathize with the viewer! 🥺

Didn’t ratan Singh do the same?

Went to srilanka and came back with padmavat when he already had a wife bacK home

hmm you have a point. But as a topicmaker I sympathised with both as well. But I felt people have always been not very sympthatic to Mastani. So I was a bit partial to her. I am sorry if the topic offended you.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I pity the fool who pits women against women.

Both women are equally sympathetic. It is not Kashbibai's fault that despite her love and devotion her husband married another woman. It is not Mastani's fault that she fell in love with a man who despite being married didn't do anything to dissuade her advances. I feel sorry for Kashibai to have to share her husband with another woman and lose face amidst her elite peers. I feel sorry for Mastani who never got the rights and recognition of being Bajirao's wife.

I am furious at our history where men could do as they pleased, marry who they pleased, fuck who they pleased and no one raised an eyebrow. It irks me that even today, decades after we are supposed to be smarter we discuss who was more sympathetic Kashibai or Mastani, but no one is discussing damn that Bajirao sure was a fuckboi.