Season 5 Episode 5 - Toe to Toe

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Hibernated

Posted: 10 years ago

I guess this episode give us a huge room for discussion .. here we get a direct view of Harvey's deepest secrets or rather say subconscious .. considering what we see at the start and the conclusion the psychiatrist drags at the end of the episode, it's more intricate than I have ever imagine .. unresolved and regressive insecurities, anger, hurt and even darker emotions are haunting Harvey and how!! Harvey Specter is turning into a constant discovery .. the study into his mind is quite disturbing, at least from where I am seeing it

Anyway, as I am opening the thread every time, it's always me who is giving the first take on the episode but this time I want to listen first .. ofcourse I have a theory but I want to judge it from other's POVs too .. so Suitors & lovers of Harvey Specter .. please please please share your views on Harvey's dream/ psyche/ subconscious .. I am eager to read

PS: Tanner looked really cute this time & the punch was cool😉 though the scene was much heated, way too serious than I imagines it's going to be

Edited by SayaneeH.Lecter - 10 years ago

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hopper_ocean

@hopper_ocean

Alumni

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

Lolx yet to watch but looking forward for the episode. Hopefully will be able to catch the repeat tomorrow night :)

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582445

Hibernated

Posted: 10 years ago

I downloaded torrent last night .. just came back from office and watched .. I just couldn't wait😆 .. I became a crazy fans within weeks .. I used to watch 5-6 epis in my weekends and 2 epis on weekdays and now getting only 1 episode in a week .. you can understand why I can't wait

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blacklambo

@blacklambo

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

So, Tanner made a comeback as a changed man. For me, both yes & no. I believe him coz he made an effort but no also coz if he was really changed, he wouldn't have hit Harvey below the belt. Bringing in Harvey's personal issue to try and accomplish his professional standing, not done.

No words to commend Gretchen. She is that amazing. I loved her convo with Tanner from start to finish. Like boss, like assistant 😉

Another character that was awesome in the episode was Jessica. Wow, she got the job done, showed her authority & made clear who the boss is. Methinks, Jack Soloff is down but not out, given this was just episode 5.

Louis & his attempts to find a mudding partner 😆😆😆 & they found a way to incorporate Mike's much discussed new hair style in the media too!

Finally, Harvey & Mike fighting a case together, "just like old times". Liked Mike as the voice of reason for Harvey-Tanner confrontation & as a guy who can separate details and focus on important stuff. Considering her false sexual harassment case, Alyssa Lang was lucky to have Mike as the opposing counsel.

Will come back later to pen more...

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SoreThumb

@SoreThumb

Sparkler

Posted: 10 years ago

From where I see it..Harvey's mother's betrayal is probably the biggest driving force in how Harvey conducts his relations..why loyalty is so important to him..which is why Donna working for Loius spells as betrayal to him..he may have come to appreciate what Donna did for him for 12 years..may understand why she finally needed to do something for herself..but I think he still does feel betrayed despite understanding..and that manifested as her betraying him in the dream..with Tanner..his enemy..

Coming to the episode as a whole

Am still iffy about the actress playing the psychiatrist..but yes the sessions are yielding more and more..slowly going towards the core issue.. though Harvey running off at the end is becoming a tad repetitive...esp if it occurs twice in same episode...

the episode was a surprise in terms of Tanner..didnt expect him to be a changed man..yes the outburst dragging Donna was a no no but in the episode it was harvey who was often on the wrong side..he wasnt wrong to distrust Tanner..even after this appearance it difficult to trust him completely..but yeah..for once he wasnt in the wrong..

Harvey and Mike together//though not like old times but together nonetheless 😃

Oh and Mike's hairstyle sucks 😆

Jessica and gretchen were kickass..and now its 2 episodes in a row that I didn't hate rachael 😆

May sound like a broken record here but there just isnt enough fous on Donna's side of story here..What are her thoughts about everything that is going on? apart from redeeming Loius and acting like his conscious..she barely has any other role..and to think of it taht she was the one who triggered all this change..

@TM: replied to you in the episode 4 thread as well

Edited by SoreThumb - 10 years ago

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xxMATSxx

@RosyRosh

Stunner

+ 5

Posted: 10 years ago

Everything i predicted and said after the last episode. All of this has to do with harveys mom and thats why he doesnt get close to anyone and is so angry with donna because her betrayal is like his moms betrayal. Etc etc. Damn being a psychology major you just end uo knowing the whole thing before its actually aired. 🤣

Anyways episode was def good. Very engaging. Even louis was not annoying. He was great and im so happy things are settled with Jack Solaf.

The best part of the epi was def. The first two minutes. Harveys dream. until tanner showed up it was perfect. Darvey fans dreams.

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582445

Hibernated

Posted: 10 years ago

Ohh how I missed to mention Jessica .. she is awesome. She is called queen of P-S-L for a reason .. & I love Gina Toress .. man she is gorgeous .. I have a question if 40s brings out the best of the beautiful women?? Gillian ANderson, Gina Toress - they make me feel so

Gretchen is really cool. I agree show is not giving enough insight of Donna .. hopefully we will get it in upcoming episodes. I enjoyed the counselling session but I too don't like the actress much. She has some kinda weird accent

Harvey & Mike together against Tanner was a good idea but Tanner is a changed man!! But I wanted him to be the same old baddy against our White Knight. However, even being a changed man he didn't lose his charm .. that's a good part.😉 .. Anyway, he dragged Donna and Harvey's mother was really nasty .. still I can give him a benefit of doubt considering the frustration and anger he may have felt at that point though his attack was really gross and unjustified.

Now coming to Harvey's dream .. from the starting I felt it was Harvey's subconscious playing with his mind. May be it's some kind of regressive feelings or fantasy getting merged with his hidden insecurities, sense of betrayal and shaping up in a bizarre form. But, if I listen to the psychiatrist, probably Donna somehow signifies Harvey's mother in his dream!

I said it in Suits' official page too .. there is a saying that every man, in their subconscious, seeks his mother in the woman he loves. Doesn't matter if Harvey loves Donna or not, she is the closest woman in his life. Now in case of Harvey, he may not "SEEK" his mother but the innate instinct of a man is somehow relating his mother & Donna.

I know it's weird but I have this theory on his dream.. but again I don't know much about psychology .. I hope they come p with a vivid explanation of the entire dream in the next episode

Edited by SayaneeH.Lecter - 10 years ago

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582445

Hibernated

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: -BolNaHalke-
Everything i predicted and said after the last episode. All of this has to do with harveys mom and thats why he doesnt get close to anyone and is so angry with donna because her betrayal is like his moms betrayal. Etc etc. Damn being a psychology major you just end uo knowing the whole thing before its actually aired. 🤣
Anyways episode was def good. Very engaging. Even louis was not annoying. He was great and im so happy things are settled with Jack Solaf.

The best part of the epi was def. The first two minutes. Harveys dream. until tanner showed up it was perfect. Darvey fans dreams.

That's good that you are a psychology major .. help us to understand Harvey & that disturbing dream better .. I have no much expectation from Harvey's psychiatrist .. & I called it disturbing coz I felt it was

About Louis I just can't hate that guy .. he transforms from annoying to adorable and from adorable to annoying so smoothly .. I can't but go awww for him😆

BTW I don't think Jack Shollof problem is eliminated for ever .. I think he is going to hit back

And that 2 sec of Harvey's dream before Tanner's arrival was actually dream moment for Darvey shippers .. but sadly I got the spoiler and knew Tanner is gonna interfere in this blessed [don't know if it's the apt word here] moment

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blacklambo

@blacklambo

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

The very fact that Tanner appeared in the dream with Donna was a giveaway that it was Harvey's subconscious playing tricks on him. It raises the question, who exactly was Harvey's mom involved with? Was it his dad's enemy? If Harvey is seeing Donna's move as betrayal, he also seems to be protecting her by not giving her name in the earlier session.

On one hand, Harvey is looking to immerse himself in work so that it affords him a distraction from the panic attacks. But ironically, his subconscious is rearing its ugly head at work. So, Paula makes Harvey talk about his work instead.

HS:...there are some things you just don't do

PA: Like lie

HS: Like threaten to rip a man's family apart

PA: Mmm

HS: What?

PA: I just find it interesting that you talk about family as if it was sacred, yet you've never married. You've never had a family of your own.

And as she concludes, "maybe because getting angry with someone is a way to avoid facing what's going on with yourself". Full points to Harvey for his listening skills. He backed down as soon as Tanner removed himself from the case.

Not only full points to Dr. Agard here, but also in the poker playing scene. A smart move on her part to let Harvey win purposely and loosen him up to get talking about his personal life. His hesitation before mentioning Donna's name was quite noticeable as was leaving the sentence incomplete about second chances. Have a feeling Harvey must have been about to say, "my mother".

PA: Your dream was a representation of unresolved issue.

HS: The only unresolved issue is I opened up & you're turning on me.

PA: Harvey, bringing up your mother is not turning on you.

HS: You have no idea what bringing up my mother is to me!

PA: No, I don't. That's the whole point of what we're doing here.

It sure is getting intense from this point on. Is the cheating/betrayal he feels just for himself as a son coupled with loss of family or he is feeling the betrayal for his Dad too? What was his relationship with Dad after the incident? There is more to come.

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blacklambo

@blacklambo

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#10

Originally posted by: SoreThumb
From where I see it..Harvey's mother's betrayal is probably the biggest driving force in how Harvey conducts his relations..why loyalty is so important to him..which is why Donna working for Loius spells as betrayal to him..he may have come to appreciate what Donna did for him for 12 years..may understand why she finally needed to do something for herself..but I think he still does feel betrayed despite understanding..and that manifested as her betraying him in the dream..with Tanner..his enemy..
Coming to the episode as a whole

Am still iffy about the actress playing the psychiatrist..but yes the sessions are yielding more and more..slowly going towards the core issue.. though Harvey running off at the end is becoming a tad repetitive...esp if it occurs twice in same episode...
the episode was a surprise in terms of Tanner..didnt expect him to be a changed man..yes the outburst dragging Donna was a no no but in the episode it was harvey who was often on the wrong side..he wasnt wrong to distrust Tanner..even after this appearance it difficult to trust him completely..but yeah..for once he wasnt in the wrong..

Harvey and Mike together//though not like old times but together nonetheless 😃

Oh and Mike's hairstyle sucks 😆

Jessica and gretchen were kickass..and now its 2 episodes in a row that I didn't hate rachael 😆

May sound like a broken record here but there just isnt enough fous on Donna's side of story here..What are her thoughts about everything that is going on? apart from redeeming Loius and acting like his conscious..she barely has any other role..and to think of it taht she was the one who triggered all this change..

@TM: replied to you in the episode 4 thread as well

Am in agreement with ur take on Harvey's dream.

Somehow, don't mind CC as Dr. Agard coz her character stays on the outside & does not assume personal significance as others do. So far, Harvey & her are one on one but in the confines of her office. But things are bound to change given the promo of next episode.

Wrt Mike's new hairstyle, u r part of the majority. I believe it is a lot like Harvey's old one in a prior season. If I am not mistaken, Patrick admitted to getting the hairstyle for this same reason.

I agree too much is left unsaid at this point wrt Donna. She might not be aware of Harvey's panic attacks or his visits to Dr. Agard's but her silence on the compensation issue leaves a huge hole in storytelling. Mike saw Harvey have a panic attack & yet has done nothing. He is usually shown way more smarter than this. There hasn't been one scene where he is shown to discuss events with Donna. Considering Donna had reached out to him last season, his silence doesn't make sense.

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Season 5 Episode 5 - Toe to Toe

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