..::Doubts & Discussions about Historical facts::.. - Page 57

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myviewprem thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: jayaks02

Have been reading Mughal history on Net only after my interest in JA. Now I am getting a question - Who is the most cruel of all Mughal Emperors ? We can start with Babur right upto last one.

Least Cruel in my opinion is Humayun.

I am voting for Shah Jahan to be the most cruel - Cannot imagine killing uncle's sons, brothers, brothers sons etc just for throne. Chilling.

Its tie between Aurangzeb and Shah Jahan where Aurangzeb gets a march ahead
Auragnzeb was a true saddist - imagine taking your elder brother(who took care of you when your father was mourning loss of your mother) with tattered clothes around Delhi in elephant and then sending soldiers to cut his head in a surprise in presence of his son and then sending that decapitated head to your father in morning breakfast plate.
Apart from Akbar tied to stake on Kabul fort to prevent humayun army from attacking by Kamran this is the bloodiest thing I have heard
meenakaliswaran thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
I have a doubt is salima had a child if so who his its father and how is jalal relationship with her in real is it like in serial r its also NR pls clear my doubt some one 😕
THANKS FOR UR REPLAY
aanchal_c thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
1. There is a difference between the so-called Historians and researchers. Historian ONLY reads and writes. Researchers tries to verify a fact from many sources. A historian knows about a lot of things about various events, but a researcher SPECIALIZES only in a few topics, but he/she may know about that SINGLE topic more than the historian. As we say, "Jack of all trades, master of none".. I would mention Dirk Collier here. :)

2. And as i know something, so let me write it here. Dirk Collier is a Belgium historian cum researcher who spoke with GreaT Authority , after spending 7 years of his life researching ONLY on Akbar in India.. He OPENLY said in a press conference in 2011, that Salima was respected by Akbar and she was CHILDLESS. This video can be located in the National Archives.

3. His PRICELESS research of those 7 years{2003 to 2010-11} can be found in the National Archives of India / The National Museum, at New Delhi. To access it, one needs to register him/herself with them. The service is paid... He also got some Imperial Documents about Akbar and MUZ's trade talks as well during his research which i mentioned in my posts... :)

Yes Akbar was not a one man women, we all know it, BUT Salima did not have Murad as a son with Akbar...

I don't know what the CV's are upto now. Neither they have shown the daughter Fatima, nor they have shown the Fatehpur Sikri and Ajmer trips of JJ, and now this NONSENSICAL stunt of CV's..!!. They themselves said last year in VO that Akbar married Salima ONLY for giving him safety.?. And now they are going totally opposite..!!!.

this is ABHAY'S research.
Edited by aanchal_c - 10 years ago
akanksha1319 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
Thanx for sharing dear! 😊
But our CVs r more intelligent & creative than any historian or researcher 😆 😡
Lets see what they found out this time 😲
aanchal_c thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: akanksha1319

Thanx for sharing dear! 😊
But our CVs r more intelligent & creative than any historian or researcher 😆 😡
Lets see what they found out this time 😲


see murad was given to salima to raise...now that is the truth...ab if they want to show that he is salima ka son or someone else's it is unto them bcoz ekta kapoor said that how they show the happenings in history is upto them,only the end facts will be true but how we reach there that will be the cv's ka prerogative.
MaddyO thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: aanchal_c

1. There is a difference between the so-called Historians and researchers. Historian ONLY reads and writes. Researchers tries to verify a fact from many sources. A historian knows about a lot of things about various events, but a researcher SPECIALIZES only in a few topics, but he/she may know about that SINGLE topic more than the historian. As we say, "Jack of all trades, master of none".. I would mention Dirk Collier here. :)

2. And as i know something, so let me write it here. Dirk Collier is a Belgium historian cum researcher who spoke with GreaT Authority , after spending 7 years of his life researching ONLY on Akbar in India.. He OPENLY said in a press conference in 2011, that Salima was respected by Akbar and she was CHILDLESS. This video can be located in the National Archives.

3. His PRICELESS research of those 7 years{2003 to 2010-11} can be found in the National Archives of India / The National Museum, at New Delhi. To access it, one needs to register him/herself with them. The service is paid... He also got some Imperial Documents about Akbar and MUZ's trade talks as well during his research which i mentioned in my posts... :)

Yes Akbar was not a one man women, we all know it, BUT Salima did not have Murad as a son with Akbar...

I don't know what the CV's are upto now. Neither they have shown the daughter Fatima, nor they have shown the Fatehpur Sikri and Ajmer trips of JJ, and now this NONSENSICAL stunt of CV's..!!. They themselves said last year in VO that Akbar married Salima ONLY for giving him safety.?. And now they are going totally opposite..!!!.


this is ABHAY'S research.




Thanks for sharing Aanchal

As Abhay has said there can be any number of historians but ONLY Abhay is a researcher!
I will believe Abhay over every so called self attested historians!

As for JA - I have stopped watching - still on forum for my friends and old love for Jodha Jalal I used to love.
Since JA has not nothing to do with history they should atleast stop butchering it!

Khushi_love thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: MaddyO




Thanks for sharing Aanchal

As Abhay has said there can be any number of historians but ONLY Abhay is a researcher!
I will believe Abhay over every so called self attested historians!

As for JA - I have stopped watching - still on forum for my friends and old love for Jodha Jalal I used to love.
Since JA has not nothing to do with history they should atleast stop butchering it!


With all due respect to Abhay...ONLY Abhay is a researcher????...now that's news to me...😕
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
Khushi, I think this link shd be mailed to the history departments of DU and JNU and to noted historians - wonder how they will like if their years of research is pooh-poohed and they are discounted as 'Researchers' ?!?!
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
I had made a post in the main forum regarding Akbar's wives and children but it got closed since we are to discuss these things here only

have read a few books on mughals and just wanted to share what i know and in case any one knows something differently please share as well just want to improve my knowledge

My basic sources are Akbarnama and Memoirs of Jahangir of course i understand there are different versions of these but having read a few versions just wanted to share a few things

1)Source THE AN I AKBARI BY ABUL FAZL ALLMI, TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL PERSIAN, BY H. BLOCHMANN, M.A. AND COLONEL H. S. JARRETT

At first I intended, in speaking of the Grandees of the Court, to record the deeds which raised them to their exalted positions, to describe their qualities, and to say something of their experience. But I am unwilling to bestow mere praise; in fact, it does not become the encomiast of His Majesty to praise others, and I should act against my sense of truthfulness, were I but to mention that which is praiseworthy, and to pass in silence over that which cannot be approved of. I shall therefore merely record, in form of a table, their names and the titles which have been conferred upon them.

I. Commanders of Ten Thousand.

1. Shahzadah Sultan Salim, eldest son of His Majesty.

II. Commanders of Eight Thousand.

2. Shahzadah Sultan Murad, second son of His Majesty.

III. Commanders of Seven Thousand.

3. Shahzadah Sultan Danyal, third son of His Majesty.

Akbar had five sons"

1. Hasan twins, born 3rd Rab' I, 972. They only lived one month.
2. Husain
3. Suln Salm [Jahangir],
4. Suln Murd.
5. Suln Dnyl.

Of daughters, I find three mentioned"(a.) Shhzdah Khnum, born three months after Salm, in 977. (b.) Shukrunnis Begum, who in 1001 was married to Mrz Shhrukh (No. 7, below, p. 312); and (c.) Arm Bn Begum; both born after Suln Dnyl. Regarding the death of the last Begum, vide Tuzuk, p. 386.

Of Akbar's wives the following are mentioned:"1. Suln Raqiyah Begum (a daughter of Mrz Hindl), who died 84 years old, 7th Jumda I, 1035, (Tuzuk, p. 401). She was Akbar's first wife (zan i kaln), but had no child by him. She tended Shhjahn. Nr Jahn (Jahngr's wife) also stayed with her after the murder of Sher Afkan. 2. Suln Salmah Begum. She was a daughter of Gulrukh (?) Begum* (a daughter of Bbar) and Mrz Nruddn Muhammad. Humyn had destined her for Bairm Khn, who married her in the beginning of Akbar's reign. After the death of Bairm, Akbar, in 968, married her. She died 10th Z Qa'dah, 1021. As a poetess, she is known under the name Makhf (concealed), and must not be confounded with Zebunnis* (a daughter of Aurangzeb's), who has the same poetical name. 3. The daughter of Rjah Bihr Mal and sister of Rjah Bhagawn Ds. Akbar married her in 968, at Sbhar. 4. The beautiful wife of 'Abdulwsi', married in 970, (vide Bad. II, 61). 5. or Princess of Jodhpr, the mother of Jahngr. Her name is not mentioned by any Muhammadan historian. As Akbar's mother had the title of Maryam Makn, so was Jodh Bi called Maryam uzzamn. She died in the month of Rajab 1032, A. H. (Tuzuk, p. 361). The Tuzuk expresses a hope that God will receive her in His mercy; for Jahngr's mother, though a Hind, could not well be sent to hell.' 6. Bb Daulat Shd, mother of (b.) and (c.); vide Tuzuk, p. 16. 7. A daughter of 'Abdullah Khn Mughul (964). 8. A daughter of Mrn Mubrik Shh of Khandes; vide p. 13, note.

Suln Salm. Title as Emperor, Jahngr. Title after death, Jannatmakn. Born at Fathpr Sk, on Wednesday, 17th Rab' I, 977, or 18th Shahrwar of the 14th year of Akbar's Era. He was called Salm, because he was born in the house of Shaikh Salm i Chisht. Akbar used to call him Shaikh Bb (vide Tuzuk, p. 1). For his wives and children, vide below, No. 4. Jahngr died on the 28th afar 1037 (28th October, 1627) near Rjor on the Kashmr frontier. Vide my article on Jahngr in the Calcutta Review for October, 1869.

Suln Murd, Akbar's fourth son, was born on Thursday, 3rd Muharram, 978, and died of delirium tremens in 1006, at Jalnpr in Barr (Tuzuk, p. 15; Akbarnmah II, p. 443; Khf Khn, p. 212). He was nicknamed Pah (Bad. II, 378). He was sabzrang (of a livid complexion), thin, and tall (Tuzuk). A daughter of his was married to Prince Parwz, Jahngr's son (Tuzuk), p. 38.)

Suln Dnyl was born at Ajmr, on the 10th Jumda I., 979, and died of delirium tremens, A. H. 1013. Khf Khn, I. p. 232, says, the news of his death reached Akbar in the beginning of 1014. He was called Dnyl in remembrance of Shaikh Dnyl, a follower of Mu'n i Chisht, to whose tomb at Ajmr Akbar, in the beginning of his reign, often made pilgrimages. Dnyl married, in the beginning of 1002, the daughter of Qulij Khn (No. 42), and towards the end of 1006, Jnn Begum, a daughter of Mrz 'Abdurrahm Khn Khnn (Khf Khn, p. 213), and was betrothed to a daughter of Ibrhm 'Adilshh of Bjpr; but he died before the marriage was consummated. He had three sons:"1. ahmras, who was married to Suln Bahr Begum, a daughter of Jahngr. 2. Byasanghar (<Arabic>). 3. Hoshang, who was married to Hoshmand Bn Begum, a daughter of Khusrau. Besides, he had four daughters whose names are not mentioned. One of them, Bulq Begum, was married to Mrz Wl (Tuz., p. 272). ahmras and Hoshang were killed by Aaf Khn after the death of Jahngr (vide Proceedings, As. Society of Bengal, for August 1869). Nothing appears to be known regarding the fate of Byasanghar. Vide Calcutta Review for October, 1869.

Dnyl is represented as well built, good looking, fond of horses and elephants, and clever in composing Hindstan poems.

2)

MEMOIRS
OF
THE EMPEROR JAHANGUEIR,
WRITTEN BY HIMSELF;
AND
TRANSLATED FROM A PERSIAN MANUSCRIPT,
BY
MAJOR DAVID PRICE

Note:Jahangir is describing his family members


When he(Akbar) arrived at the age of twenty, Providence bestowed upon him his first child, who received the name of Fautma Ban Begum, but died at the age of one year. Her mother was Beiby Pungri. By Beiby Araumbuksh he had two sons, one of whom received the name of Hussun, and the other Hsseyne. The latter was given to nurse to Bereijah Begum, the mother of Assuf Khaun, but lived only eighteen days; the other was consigned to the care of Zeyne Khaun Koukah, and did not live the tenth day. After these he had by Beiby Seleima Begum a daughter whom he named Shahzdah Khaunum, who was consigned to the care of his own mother, Mereiam Makauny (who has her place with Mary). Among all my sisters, in integrity, truth, and zeal for my welfare, she is without her equal; but her time is principally devoted to the worship of her Creator.

Next was born to him by Beiby Kheira a son, to whom they gave the name of Pahry(Murad). When he became of age, being employed by my father to conduct the operations in the Dekkan, he had reduced the fortresses of Gawil,* Parnalah, and other places of strength, and otherwise made successful progress towards the entire subjugation of the countries south of the Nerbudda. This prince died at Khaunpour in that territory at the early age of thirty. The name bestowed upon him by my father was Sltan Mrd, but having been born among the hills of Futtahpour, and a hill in Hindstauny being called pahr, my father in familiar language usually addressed him by the name of Pahry, or mountain-born. In other respects Sltan Mrd was of a greenish or fresh complexion, in person rather spare, and inclined to tall; in disposition mild, dignified, deliberate in council, and brave in action. In conduct so discreet, that my father consigned to him the superintendance of his building department and working establishments.

Subsequently my father had by Meher Semmaa a daughter, on whom he bestowed the name of Meeti Begum; meeti in Hindstauny signifying sweet. She died, however, at eight months old. After this he had a son by Beeby Mereiom(most probably Jodha) who was placed under the care of Rjah Baharmul.

Upon the death of Sltan Mrd my brother Shahzadah Danial was sent to complete the subjugation of the Dekkan. On the arrival at Brhampour of my father, who was proceeding to the same destination, Sltan Danial, accompanied by the Khaun Khanan and other distinguished ameirs of every class, with a formidable allotment of the imperial armies, was detached in advance; and it was at this period that the fortress of Ahmednuggur was reduced. My father came again to Brhampour, and having invested Sltan Danial with the government of the Dekkan, returned to Agrah. Danial was not more than thirty years of age when he also died at Brhampour, in consequence of his intemperate indulgence in the use of spirituous liquors.

His death was accompanied with circumstances in some respects so remarkable, that I cannot withhold myself from recording them in this place.

He was extremely fond of shooting and the amusements of the chase, and had a favourite fowling-piece, to which he had given the name of jennauzah (the bier), and on which he had caused to be inlaid a couplet to the following purport:

In the pleasures of the chase with thee, my soul breathes fresh and clear (tawzah),
But who receives thy fatal mission, sinks lifeless on the bier (jennauzah).

His excesses in the disgraceful propensity to which I am compelled to refer, having been carried beyond all bounds of moderation, orders were at last issued, under the directions of Khaun Khanan, that he should no longer receive any supply of liquor, and that those who were detected in any attempt to convey such supply, would be punished with death. For some time, deterred by their fears of such punishment, none of his attendants ventured to utter even the names of liquors; and several days were permitted to elapse under these circumstances. At last, no longer able to endure this abstinence from his habitual indulgence, Danial, with tears and entreaties implored Mrshed Kuly, one of his corps of gunners, to procure him even the most trifling quantity of the poisonous liquid, promising him advancement to the summit of his wishes provided he would comply with his request. Mrshed Kly, affected by the touching humility of the prince's address, at last desired to know in what way it was possible to gratify him without incurring the risk of discovery and certain death. Danial replied, that at such a moment, a draught of liquor was to him as much as life itself." "Go," said he, "and bring me the spirit in the barrel of one of my fowling pieces; twice or thrice repeated I shall be satisfied, and thou wilt be safe against discovery, or even suspicion." Subdued by these intreaties, Mrshed Kly did as he was desired; filled the piece so ominously named jennauzah with spirits, and brought it to his master. As the inauspicious name had been given to the piece by himself, it was so ordained by Providence that to drink what was conveyed by it and to be laid on his bier was one and the same thing"he drank of the liquid mischief and died: so true is it, that the tongue should be restrained from indulging in rash expressions.

In fine, what does not always occur in the same person, Danial was almost as fond of good eating as he was of drink. But there was one absurd ambition which seemed to be predominant with him beyond every other"that of possessing a superior train of elephants; to such a degree that, even among his own ameirs, if he saw one of surpassing size or quality, he did not scruple to take it away, sometimes forgetting the trifling ceremony of paying for it; of which hereafter. In short, as far as his power extended, he did not permit any one but himself to be master of a prime elephant. I shall lastly observe that Sltan Danial was extremely fond of Hindstauny music, and no bad reciter of Hindy poetry.

To return to the enumeration of my father's children, he had by Naun Beiby a daughter whom he named Lla Begum, and whom he consigned also to the care of his mother, in whose charge she died at the expiration of eighteen months. Next, by Beiby Douletshah he had a daughter, on whom he bestowed the name of Araumbanu Begum. For this latter he entertained the greatest fondness, repeatedly recommending her to my protection, and charging me, for his sake, when he should be no more, to regard her with the same indulgent kindness" not without expressing his assurance, that his words would find a permanent place in my remembrance.

3)Source

The Tzuk-i-Jahangr Or Memoirs Of Jahngr

Alexander Rogers
and
Henry Beveridge

Three months after my birth my sister, Shhzda Khnam, was born to one of the royal concubines; they gave her over to his (Akbar's) mother, Maryam Makn. After her a son was born to one of the concubines, and received the name of Shh Murd. As his birth occurred in the hill country of Fatpr, he was nicknamed Pahr. When my revered father sent him to conquer the Deccan, he had taken to excessive drinking through associating with unworthy persons, so that he died in his 30th year, in the neighbourhood of Jlnpr, in the province of Berar. His personal appearance was fresh-coloured; he was thin in body and tall of stature. Dignity and authority were evident in his movements, and manliness and bravery manifested themselves in his ways. On the night of Jumd-l-awwal 10th, A.H. 979 (September, 1572), another son was born to one of the concubines. As his birth took place at Ajmr in the house of one of the attendants of the blessed shrine of the reverend Khwja Munu-d-dn Chisht, whose name was Shaikh Dniyl, this child was called Dniyl.


After the birth of Dniyl a daughter was born to Bb Daulat-Shd whom they named Shakaru-n-nis Begam.* As she was brought up in the skirt of my revered father's care, she turned out very well. She is of good disposition and naturally compassionate towards all people. From infancy and childhood she has been extremely fond of me, and there can be few such relationships between brother and sister. The first time when, according to the custom of pressing the breast of a child and a drop of milk is perceptible, they pressed my sister's breast and milk appeared, my revered father said to me: "Bb! drink this milk, that in truth this sister may be to thee as a mother." God, the knower of secrets, knows that from that day forward, after I drank that drop of milk, I have felt love for my sister such as children have for their mothers.

After some time another girl was born to this same Bb Daulat-Shd, and he (Akbar) called her rm Bn Begam.* Her disposition was on the whole inclined to excitement and heat. My father was very fond of her, so much so that he described her impolitenesses as politenesses, and in his august sight they, from his great love, did not appear bad. Repeatedly he honoured me by addressing me, and said: "Bb! for my sake be as kind as I am, after me, to this sister, who in Hindi phrase is my darling (that is, dearly cherished). Be affectionate to her and pass over her little impolitenesses and impudences."





Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
Now after analyzing all the 3 above sources below is what i know

1)Hasaan and hussain
Name of their mother is not mentioned in Ain-i-Akbar but memoirs Jahangir translated by price says its Beiby Araumbuksh but the more reliable memoirs of Jahangir translated by beveridge doesnt mentioen them again.So the identity of their mother is unknown

2)Jahangir
no doubt here its Jodha

3)Murad
Again Ain-I-Akbar doesn't mention mother's name but both the versions of Memoirs of Jahangir by Price and Beveridge say it was a concubine .Since two versions agree on same thing this could most probably be right

4)Daniyal
Again Ain-I-Akbar no mention but he was born in Ajmer and memoirs of jahangir by price says it was Beeby Mereiom(now mereiom here could mean muz hence jodha)however memoirs of jahagir by beveridge again says it was a concubine.Now here again its unclear most probably its Jodha or a concubine

5)Shazadi Khannum
I think all 3 version say is that she was born 3 months after Jahangir.Ain-i-akbar doesn't mention the mother but memoirs by price says it was salima begum and by beveridge again says a concubine.Now here what also needs to be noted is that since the memoirs were written by Jahangir himself he could have considered Akbar's other wives as concubines.In any case this is also not clear whether its Salima begun or some concubine.Also both versions of Memoirs say that she was given to AKbar's mother to raise again since two version say the same thing could most probably be true

6)
Shukrunnis Begum and Arm Bn Begum

Now these two daughters of Akbar were clearly born after Daniyal as per all 3 versions .Also all 3 versions claim their mother was Bibi daulat shad.

After Jodha being the mother of Jhangir most certain thing is that Bibi Daualt shad was the mother of two of Akbar's daughter since all 3 version say the same thing

This what i know about Akbar's children does some other verison or document or source say soemthing else or soemthing that may help clarify identity of the mother's

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