A hatchet job on Alexander? - Page 2

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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#11
Thank you for your concern about my health. RA is an awful nuisance and a painful one, and there are times when my hands become unusable, so I had given up doing anything in the IF for the past year and more till this topic made me come back, at least in passing.

Yes, of course Philip was no Alexander. The difference between them was that between great competence and genius. Still, but for the foundation laid by Philip, Alexander could not have achieved all that he did and so soon. Philip saved Macedonia from geographical extinction, and gave Alexander a readymade base and a well oiled military machine with which to launch himself on the world stage.

Alexander was unique. He was like a bright, blazing comet, and he flared across the sky in an all too brief existence, but his name will survive as long as we survive on this planet .

And yes again, Alexander was a visionary - even during his brief sojourn in northwestern India he sought out wise men - and he wanted to create a fusion of the Macedonian, Greek and Persian cultures. But these moves of his apparently only provoked resentment in his base, the Macedonian one, especially when he wanted to make them prostrate before him in the Persian manner😉. It was a total, head on clash of cultures, and of course it all fell apart after his death.

He had that talent that all great leaders possess, he knew how to be, as you have pointed out, different things to different peoples. He addressed his home troops in Macedonian, and the rest in Greek, then the lingua franca of the world he knew.

It is another matter that the Greeks hated Philip, Alexander, and the Macedonian "barbarians". Thousands of Greeks fought on the Persian side, and reportedly fought much better than the Persians.

I loved your phrase, the first superstar of the known world. That is exactly what Alexander was. Hardly anyone in India knows anything about Cyrus the Great, but Sikandar, for all the thousands of civilians killed in his abortive campaign in India, always has been very well regarded here. I was not surprised to learn that the Persians are claiming to be his paternal ancestors. Olympia would not have been amused!😉

Well, I have to stop here, for my fingers are beginning to cramp up badly. Thank you for your very interesting and well considered responses.

Shyamala (Aunty, Di, Akka, or whatever is age appropriate for you. I am 70!)

PS: I read somewhere that Alexander later fell out with Aristotle, both in terms of ideas and later because Alexander had his nephew executed.

I am surprised that they did not show Aristotle at all in Porus. Or the taming of Bucephalus by a 12 year old Alexander, which would have made a marvellous sequence.
"

Originally posted by: newtoIF

Hey Syamala, sorry to hear about your health issues.
I had posted about Phillip vs Alexander in a different thread,but post it here for your ease.

Philip was no Alexander.Philip was no doubt a significant part of Macedonian history as a nation builder and he created military machine. Even Genghis Khan ruled over vast lands,and was a military machine but was not given the title of Great.Nebuchadnezzar of the hanging gardens fame was not called Great.
But Alexander is considered the first Superstar of the known world.
For with his conquests, military victories and youth, he also brought about a philosophy of his own just like the way Cyrus the Great was known for justice, Asoka the Great was known for truth, Akbar the Great was known for bringing together religions.All those who brought about a change in the way of thinking, inaugurated an era, and these 'Greats' did with a vision far ahead of their times. Alexander believed in the amalgamation of peoples and cultures, but used conquest as his known path to it.For him it not just the land and treasures, but was also about the people. And so he projected himself as a Greek king to the Greeks to take vengeance on their behalf and a Persian king to the Farsis as a benevolent king.
As they say,sab takdeer leke aatey hain,and he brought his destiny with unmatched charisma and ability to style his public image with different audiences differently.
Philip lacked finesse and philosophy that was Alexander moulded by Aristotle.
That the Iranians hate him today is today's nation politics. The Shahnamah, which is a 10th century AD chronicle of Persian kings, actually writes about Alexander(Iskander he was called) as if he had a Persian father ! Such was his impact even 1000 years after passing.

Edited by sashashyam - 7 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#12
Yes of course. A ruler has first to get power and then consolidate it to be able to do anything remarkable, and in the struggle for a throne, things often get very bloody.

Akbar was a lucky exception, for his younger stepbrother Mirza Hakim was a nuisance, not a threat, and he too died young, and besides, Jalaluddin Muhammad had the throne kept ready for him when he was barely 13 by Bairam Khan. Ashoka must have killed Sushim and several more of his siblings, though the Buddhist chronicles that talk darkly of his having killed all his 99 brothers are clearly exaggerated, very likely to enhance the impact of Buddhism on such a supposed monster. Recent historical records of the period include mentions of privy purses for several of the Emperor Ashoka's brothers and sisters, so at least some of them must have survived his ascent to the throne!😉

Thank you for sharing the interesting excerpt from the Greek historians. I had no idea that the souten burning sequence was authentic!

Despite the realpolitik justification for all this bloodletting - and most of those killed off would surely have had Alexander despatched in short order if they had had the chance, so he was astute in having them bumped off first - that scene of him decapitating that smiling baby with his own hand was revolting. There was no need for it to be shown that way.

Actually I had felt that killing her was not necessary at all, for she is a baby girl and could hardly lay claim to the throne, but perhaps you and newtoIF are right and she could have become a nuisance in the future. Still, that was an awful, ugly scene that would have disgusted 90% of the viewers.

Shyamala B.Cowsik

Originally posted by: prithvisky

History has shown that great rulers have always been ruthless before being great. Whether it is Ashoka or Akbar bloodbath for throne is the common theme. Alexander had many people killed to secure his throne. It is not unexpected. Even Ashoka killed his brothers and opponents.

This is documented by Greek historians themselves: "Alexander began his reign by eliminating potential rivals to the throne. He had his cousin, the former Amyntas IV, executed. He also had two Macedonian princes from the region of Lyncestis killed, but spared a third, Alexander Lyncestes. Olympias had Cleopatra Eurydice and Europa, her daughter by Philip, burned alive. Alexander also ordered the murder of Attalus, who was in command of the advance guard of the army in Asia Minor and Cleopatra's uncle. Alexander spared Arrhidaeus, who was by all accounts mentally disabled, possibly as a result of poisoning by Olympias."

So, Philip's daughter was killed by Olympia not by Alexander directly. But the only reason Olympia would kill her is that she may create problems for Alexander in the future or the security of Alexander's throne.

Silkytiger thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#13
Hi shyamala I used to follow your posts and great writing during Jodha Akbar days. I hope your health gets better. Thank you for your wonderful insight on historical characters.
Edited by Silkytiger - 7 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#14
My dear Silkytiger (what a fascinating id! But could I know your real name, if you don't mind it?),

Thanks ever so much for the very kind things you have said about my Jodha Akbar posts. I had no idea there were so many silent readers for them! I am most gratified, and only sorry that they were silent. Or is it that you had another id then, and did comment on those posts? Now I have one request. If you like anything of mine, please do hit the Like button, so I can know you read it and enjoyed it.

I am afraid my RA is not going to get any better, for that is the first thing the orthopaedist told me, that it has no cure. There is continuous low level pain, and in my case, the hands are the most affected, and they become stiff and painful and unusable very frequently. In between, I have some good days, as during this last week, when I can use my fingers without too much pain, and then I can type.

Enough of that. I am not going to do anything today, for I am wary about overusing my hands, but tomorrow, I will try and post something on what I see as a great relief, the redemption of Alexander. And a bit about the appalling idiocy of the Porus condemnation sequence. I suffer thru the Porus parts only in the hope that there is a Macedonian segment, and half the time I am disappointed, but not yesterday!

Shyamala (whatever you feel is age appropriate for a 70 year old. It is Aunty for most folk here).

Originally posted by: Silkytiger

Hi shyamala I used to follow your posts and great writing during Jodha Akbar days. I hope your health gets better. Thank you for your wonderful insight on historical characters.

myviewprem thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#15
Hello aunty

Nice to see you back on a forum. Did not know you follow Porus. Hope your health is fine

Originally posted by: sashashyam

The screenplay seems now intent on building up Alexander as not just a ruthless conqueror but a bloodthirsty one.

All emperors and kings should be ruthless in order to rule. Sensitive and good humans who value humainty and human life can never become a king and emperor for long. Even Ashoka wa a ruthless emperor even after becoming buddist, he would send his sons to suppress revolts. A King cannot say "I will follow humanity when enemy attacks or there is revot." All great kings and emperors were ruthless. Those who were a bit fair like Maharana Pratap or Humayun who forgave enemy easily suffered a lot all life. Compare that to great emperors Alexander, Ghenghis Khan, Akbar, Chandra gupta Maurya etc were all uthless in conquering and to enemies. Winning a war is not only based on fighting skills, weapons, many times phsychology plays a big part. All great emperors create fear psychosis in enemies so they never dare revolt or attack. When enemy is ruthless you cannot say "peace, forgiveness, humanity" etc. If Alexander did not kill his step mom and enemy they would kill him and his mom one day.


The fascinating complexities in his character- the sudden cold rage that makes him have his defeated enemy dragged by a galloping horse, the evident yearning for the approval of a father figure that was shown in the way his eyes light up when Philip praises him, and even more so in the tenderness with which he looks after the comatose king, his clear sense of right and wrong, his dedication to his duties as Philip's commander in chief, the revulsion with which he learns of Olympia having used black magic to sideline Arridaeus - all that is now gone, swept away on a tide of single-minded ambition. He has become monochrome. I hope this is a passing phase and that the shades in his character will resurface.

Alexander i guess was shocked out of his love for dad and step moms and siblings when Philip marriied cleoptra and said Alex will be commander of new son born. It takes one harsh word for a loyal man especially a child to hate a parent for life. It was Philip was sowed sead of hatred in Alex heart. A betrayed son or child is like a betrayed lover, they never forgive or forget. Especially if they love parent blindly to death before like Alex did overlooking his mom Olympias words.


As for the family killings, Filina was plotting to kill Alexander, so she was fair game, as was Attalus.The varied and sadistic ways in which the wives are killed are pure Olympia- I still remember her trying to roast a poor man inside an iron bull for the greater good of her unborn son.😡Historically, Arridaeus survived this bloodletting, so he has not been shown at all. But Alexander killing the baby was not only appalling, but also pointless. It is Cleopatra's baby girl, so how on earth would she be a threat to him?

Cleoptras baby may not be threat now, but if she gows up marries and has kids especially a son that son may challenge Aex or his kids. In Britain for long once a new king/Queen came they killed all their siblings and their husbands and kids. Why? So they are not threat in future. Read about Queen Victoria and Elizabeth I. Everyone did that even Queens killed their siblings.

So one can only conclude that it was meant to create revulsion in the mind of the viewer against Alexander, the sabse kroor conqueror the commentary described at the beginning. It is intended to be a contrast to the lily white, oh so good Puru, who can do no wrong, think no wrong, wish no wrong as he sashays across the screen with his long wavy locks like a shampoo ad, mostly in exasperating slo mo.

I only hope they do not fudge the extremely honourable and gentle way in which Alexander treated Darius' womenfolk: his mother Sisygambis. his wife and his two daughters, whom the Persian ruler had abandoned when he ran away from the battlefield. For that would hardly fit in with the current image of him as a baby killer!

An aside. I never understood how Olympia, with her mantra of mere aur Zeus ka beta. justified her laying claim to the Macedonian throne for Alexander. It was thus very interesting to see the stress that Alexander now lays on Philip as his waalid and himself as his aulaad!😉

Zeus ka beta is just to create an aura f invincibility, he was in reality Philip son not Zeus. Zeus is a Greek God. Intresting is Zeus also killed his father and became God. For all you can think God is forever and cannot die. If Zeus killed his father and became God, he may be a man not real God or an avatar of a GOD. For God cannot have a father and cannot kill his own father and cannot die etc. So he may be some King of Greeks etc may be 5000-10000 years ago.

Shyamala B.Cowsik

Edited by myviewprem - 7 years ago
newtoIF thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#16

Hello dear Shyamala Aunty. Hope you are feeling better with your hands,as I see you have been wandering on the forum.
In the west, every university course or workshop on leadership has a page for Alexander.
Such is the admiration for his cognitive thinking,intuition,risk taking,strategy and tactics,just sheer fearlessness.
I got this link,I had read a long time ago-

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/06/03/alexander_vs_porus_beyond_the_fog_of_war_25749

Apparently Russians do not admire Alexy 😉 But I do not agree with the assessment that he was hated by the Greeks, he was literally hero worshipped by his soldiers,greek,macedonian,persian alike.
There were over 30,000 literary works on him and most of it were incorporated into the Alexander Romance which is a fictionalized biography of his about 500 years after his passing.
But it is universally accepted that the Greeks considered the Indians to be the noblest and most valorous of all the kingdoms they invaded.So, I like the premise of the storyline of Porus, although I tried a few other historicals on TV which are mediocre.The show has an authentic feel,great performances and quality of action+direction.
The conflict appears when Alexander adopts his philosophy as Offense is the best Defense.
And Porus sees Defense as his birthright.The antonyms do not take the context of the philosophy.
There is an interesting tale of Aristotle,while teaching Alexander,Ptolemy,Antigonus etc., described them a situation,and asked them what their reaction will be.
Alex alone tells him that he cannot say, because his circumstance will dictate his reaction to a situation.
And so is our human race's evaluation of history.Its our own political climate that Alex is an antagonist,instead of wondering how the defender Porus admired Alex as an emperor so much,that it is said after Alex passes away,Porus still sends the annual tribute in the name of the King of Kings Alexander of Macedonia, not to any of the regents or generals of the Diadochi, until Porus himself was assassinated by one of the greek generals later.
It takes one to see one, and Alex and Porus met their match in each other, did not feel any sense
of humiliation in admiring the strengths of the other.Truly the mark of statesmanship in both.And the greeks were generous enough to praise Porus, and wrote about him more than our own desis did.
Chanakya used Alex as the role model for CGM,building a standing army,etc.CGM is considered the Indian Alex for his ambition and tricks😆

Alex made his shares of mistakes,especially with his mindless adoption of decadent persian customs, and the mutual suspicion he and his macedonian generals had of each other, leading to many plots,conspiracies,executions etc.Perhaps one last trip to see his mother would have saved him,for all her intuitions were bang on, the snake that she herself was😛 That his lineage did not survive,I think was the real tragedy, all others getting their due.
The Aristotle-Alex exchanges on leader vs master, the jewish high priest and Alex exchanges when he visits the jewish temple,how he survives the journey in the libyan desert to meet the oracle at siwan,the supposed Alex and the Brahmans exchange,also make for excellent reading.

Definitely need a post from you on the ridicolous script for Puru and PAurav Rashtra.
If the Macedonians are the ruthless plotting lot, then the show says Puru and PR are a bunch
of moronic idiots, the king knows not what is going on,the queen comes out of some mental illness after 20 years,parrots the same 2 lines,puru protects a murderous criminal of an adopted brother,what qualities of nobility do they have really? Why point to some Faras for your own failures,when all you do is squabble for 20 years.I will rather take the quick witted maverick Macedonian with the green eyes any day ⭐️
Edited by newtoIF - 7 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#17
My dear Prem,

First of all, I am very pleased to be back in touch with you again. I am afraid I did not reply to your kind PM, enquiring about my health, but at that time, my hands were in awful shape, and I could not type at all. When they were a bit better, not OK but better, I could not cope with the backlog of correspondence. I am really sorry.

Now as for my response to your detailed comments, they have to be brief, as my fingers cannot stand too much strain. They are, as usual, inblue.So here goes!

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: myviewprem

Hello aunty

Nice to see you back on a forum. Did not know you follow Porus. Hope your health is fine

I have been following this show from the beginning, but this is my first post in this forum. I do not think I am going to post frequently here, or anywhere else, for my fingers lock up if I strain them too much.

Edited by sashashyam - 7 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
#18
My dear NTIF,

My hands are temperamental, and the fingers lock up, or start moving sideways on their own, when I overdo things. I never posted on Porus before this one, for I kept saying Get thee behind me, Satan!😉 whenever an overwhelming urge to verbally whack a character or to lambast the CVs took hold of me. But this time, I cracked, that is all! I have already started overdoing things, and the payback is surely round the corner. Never mind, I am used to it!

I can already see that you are going to be my card index for all things alexandrian (not Alex, my dear, it sounds too commonplace!). I have always adored Alexander, and wanted to call my only son and heir by that name, which was of course a non-starter. So he was named Siddhartha, as he was born in Bangkok, in a Buddhist country, and that is also a name for Lord Shiva. But his pet name is the Russian dimunitive for Alexander, Sasha.

My comments in response to yours are in blue.

Shyamala Aunty


Originally posted by: newtoIF


Hello dear Shyamala Aunty. Hope you are feeling better with your hands,as I see you have been wandering on the forum.
In the west, every university course or workshop on leadership has a page for Alexander.
Such is the admiration for his cognitive thinking,intuition,risk taking,strategy and tactics,just sheer fearlessness.
I got this link,I had read a long time ago-

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/06/03/alexander_vs_porus_beyond_the_fog_of_war_25749

I have read this article a long time ago, as also a more detailed account of the lecture by Marshal Zhukov at a military college in India about the battle of the Jhelum. I will try and dig it out for you. You should try and watch the 1990 Chanakya, which is a classic, for the early episodes on Alexander, especially his long, passionate plea to his troops to stay the course and go deeper into India. The makers of that show drew heavily on contemporary Greek and later Roman accounts.

Apparently Russians do not admire Alexy 😉 But I do not agree with the assessment that he was hated by the Greeks, he was literally hero worshipped by his soldiers,greek,macedonian,persian alike.

The Greeks as a people, that is the citizens of the individual city states, despised all Macedonians as uncultured, and of course they detested Alexander because he rubbed their noses in the dust. But that would not apply to the Greek soldiers under his command, for whom he, as such a splendid warrior and commander, would have been a demi-god, the divine Alexander.

There were over 30,000 literary works on him and most of it were incorporated into the Alexander Romance which is a fictionalized biography of his about 500 years after his passing.

I have located an English translation and bookmarked it for reading.

But it is universally accepted that the Greeks considered the Indians to be the noblest and most valorous of all the kingdoms they invaded.So, I like the premise of the storyline of Porus, although I tried a few other historicals on TV which are mediocre.The show has an authentic feel,great performances and quality of action+direction.

The conflict appears when Alexander adopts his philosophy as Offense is the best Defense.
And Porus sees Defense as his birthright.The antonyms do not take the context of the philosophy.
There is an interesting tale of Aristotle,while teaching Alexander,Ptolemy,Antigonus etc., described them a situation,and asked them what their reaction will be. Alex alone tells him that he cannot say, because his circumstance will dictate his reaction to a situation.

Fascinating!

And so is our human race's evaluation of history.Its our own political climate that Alex is an antagonist,instead of wondering how the defender Porus admired Alex as an emperor so much,that it is said after Alex passes away,Porus still sends the annual tribute in the name of the King of Kings Alexander of Macedonia, not to any of the regents or generals of the Diadochi, until Porus himself was assassinated by one of the greek generals later.

I never knew this. You are clearly a storehouse of such memorabilia.

It takes one to see one, and Alex and Porus met their match in each other, did not feel any sense
of humiliation in admiring the strengths of the other.Truly the mark of statesmanship in both.And the greeks were generous enough to praise Porus, and wrote about him more than our own desis did.
Chanakya used Alex as the role model for CGM,building a standing army,etc.CGM is considered the Indian Alex for his ambition and tricks😆

I wonder if and how they are going to show Chanakya in this serial. One bit of relief, from what the high priestess of Delphi said yesterday, is that they do not propose to indulge in natakiya rupantar to the extent of declaring Porus the victor in that titanic battle!

Alex made his shares of mistakes,especially with his mindless adoption of decadent persian customs, and the mutual suspicion he and his macedonian generals had of each other, leading to many plots,conspiracies,executions etc.Perhaps one last trip to see his mother would have saved him,for all her intuitions were bang on, the snake that she herself was😛 That his lineage did not survive,I think was the real tragedy, all others getting their due.

I am not sure about the lineage business. Neither Alexander, nor Julius Caesar, nor Napoleon, the three unrivalled military geniuses in the last three millennia, of whom Alexander was the greatest, had an heir who succeeded him in a real sense. Even if they had had sons who came after them, chances are that they would have been pale copies of the splendour of their fathers. So it is perhaps just as well that Alexander stands alone. But he could have lived longer and done more, which is the real pity. Those whom the Gods love die young, but so young?

The Aristotle-Alex exchanges on leader vs master, the jewish high priest and Alex exchanges when he visits the jewish temple,how he survives the journey in the libyan desert to meet the oracle at siwan,the supposed Alex and the Brahmans exchange,also make for excellent reading.

I do hope they do not shortchange the Siwan part, as also the Persian campaign and the Gordian Knot. Already they have lost a potentially splendid little sequence re: the taming of Bucephalus.

Definitely need a post from you on the ridicolous script for Puru and PAurav Rashtra.
If the Macedonians are the ruthless plotting lot, then the show says Puru and PR are a bunch
of moronic idiots, the king knows not what is going on,the queen comes out of some mental illness after 20 years,parrots the same 2 lines,puru protects a murderous criminal of an adopted brother,what qualities of nobility do they have really? Why point to some Faras for your own failures,when all you do is squabble for 20 years.I will rather take the quick witted maverick Macedonian with the green eyes any day ⭐️

So would I!😉And the makers have been very clever in getting such a visually perfect Alexander in this boy Rohit, who is not, I think (though I might be wrong, as I watch very few serials), very well known. He looks every inch the conquering hero, and he makes the Macedonian segments eminently watchable. And he was wonderfully vulnerable in the part when he goes to Olympia after the stormy clash with Philip in the open court.

OK, my fingers are spent. Bye for now.

GumnaamHaiKoii thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#19
Even i wanted to point out the same esp. the baby killing part.
sashashyam thumbnail
13th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 7 years ago
#20
Thank you! I am glad you are on the same page as I am on this.

If you liked the main post, would you please hit the Like button? I like to know who my readers are. And if you do not mind, though your id is a very pretty one, may I know your real name?

Shyamala Aunty (?)

Originally posted by: Radiant_Eyes_

Even i wanted to point out the same esp. the baby killing part.

Edited by sashashyam - 7 years ago

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