Jodha Akbar 79-81: Darkness before the dawn - Page 7

Originally posted by: alffim

Dear Shyamala Di!
My admiration for you! 👏👏 👏

To me it reached long, long as to the giraffe), but I understood why dear Shyamala not accept such Jodha. Not only I understand, would say also, in unison. 😊

Not in his own defense, but to explain their point of view. Minister Kerensky was a very short-sighted, almost to blindness. Him to the offer to purchase glasses and he said, " Why do I have see freckles on face miss Kirsty, when I, barely distinguishing her, guess this girl everything that I want to guess? Why would I want clouds on the Finnic sky when I see the stormy ocean over my head? Why do see I have lines when I have color?"

After falling under the spell of Paridhi, I saw what I wanted (?) to see.

But, I, in general, is quite a hard man, life gives experience and cynicism about the pink foam, and I prefer self-irony and irony.

I understand your point of view on this concrete Jodha and agreeing with this

Even denying sexual relations with him, she could do it, if not royalty but with the dignity not to look stupid and vulgar, and so that Jalal couldn't pin up to her. And he would be remain in loss...

But I still I still consider that she had a right to refuse him.

I wanted to write the same idea as the Donzhas, I had long time been trying to adapt the emotions Jodha:

if an SS officer wanted to marry a Jewish girl (completely unrealistic, but suppose!), but definitely would have told her that this is her personal and long hell. Just for the sake of her humiliation. AND???

1. After Jalal in the first night in Agra, to go under Jalal - humiliation, after which only immediate death. To live after that - impossible. I'm not talking about physical damage, but psychological and moral. Even in a fire it would be easier. I think even the attack of a rapist, Jodha would have survived easier than the night with Jalal.

Though both of them tried to spoil for each other as much as possible.

2. I think the option that he after spending the night with her, she would just - nnn ... for Jalal and the target of ridicule for ALL in the harem, and for Jalal firstly.

I already wrote that maybe in harem women were the same talented, intelligent, noble, brave, loving even sabre fencing. But they were so meekly: "at your service" that Jalal wasn't interesting with them. And while he was chasing after this Jodha and argued with her, they had appeared general subjects for communication and discovered the similarity of their characters... And banal phrase from physics for to human relations: similar charges repel. 😛

As a joke: maybe subconsciously Jodha knows that Jalal loves her, not hates (and therefore the theme of their proximity all the time POPs up)? And Jalal subconsciously refused to admit to myself that she's not a "trophy" and not to break her self-esteem. But since knowledge this is the unconscious, then Jodha can not say to yourself, "he loves me" (we say "brake", about a man who's thinking slowly 😊), she is stubborn: "he is only horrible, he is bad".
The question that torments Russian forums: what was real, except for two conditions?
Maybe, as young Khushi has suggested on my last thread, Jodha wants Jalal to make advances to her so that she can have the pleasure of humiliating him by turning them down (provided always that she could manage it, which is far from certain!) . So when he shows no signs of obliging her, she prods him with such rants so that he is enraged enough to react as she wants him to.

Boccaccio had a similar story of provoking and in the book "Italian short Novel of Renaissance "

Thought of the day: If I had been Jalal, I would have handed the snake back to Jodha along with the dupatta and told her, Agar aapko hamare zariya saanp se bachne se itna hi aitraaz hai, to lijiya, sambhaliye aap hi, dupatta bhi aur saanp bhi!👏👏 👏

Question of the day: Why on earth is there only the very slow palki for travelling women in Jodha Akbar, and not some kind of four wheeled vehicle like a coach drawn by 2 or 4 horses? Or even a 2 wheeled one? Such coaches were familiar all over Europe and England during this period, and for centuries before that. As for India, even our puranas describe horse-drawn rathas, or chariots. How come there is this regression to palkis in these period dramas? Imagine how long it would have taken for a palki to traverse the distance from Agra to Ajmer!

This is a question I was very interested. Especially strange looking harem hike in palanquins and on foot to war with Shihnaz. It was, as of the educated ruler who was interested in all the military innovations have made very stone age.

The turning of the tide

I want to again thank you for your accuracy of the images and literary style, which can not spoil even the translator program.

The fact is that Jodha is a very warmhearted and good girl, but she is opinionated, unyielding in her prejudices, and with no understanding of anything beyond her Amer, like a frog in a well. She is like a small town girl pitchforked into the capital of an empire, with none of the understanding of the complexities of imperial governance that the gentle and equally goodhearted Salima has.

Worse, Jodha seems to have no desire to learn either, exulting instead in simple minded self-righteousness. She does not and will not understand that for her imperial husband, the choices are rarely between good and bad, black and white. That they are mostly between the bad and the worse, between two shades of grey. She has been spoilt by her whole family and told constantly that she can do no wrong, and here in Agra, Hamida Banu spoils her even worse. No wonder she is the way she is.

But to cut her some slack - yes, I do that occasionally! Wink- she was imagining that it would be a nirdosh pashu like a deer, not a khoonkhaar pashu like our Mohan. The blood freezes in her veins as soon as she realises what is surging out of the undergrowth!

Quiz for the day: Guess the number of times Jodha uses the words nirdosh pashu in the hunt segment. No cheating by rewatching the episode and counting!

Not really suitable here Russian saying, but I want more exact to her behavior. "Simplicity - worse than stealing." "OTHER simplicity worse than stealing. Or option: holy simplicity worse than stealing. Difference feel?(c)" :)

And here the Latin: "O sancta simplicitas"

When a person steals, he understands what goes wrong. Therefore, in principle, able to distinguish between "good" and "bad", and as a result is capable of repentance. In their simplicity people do not understand what makes a bad act ... which means it will do so from time to time. And about any remorse and there can be no question. (c)

I'm sorry, but a lot of work and I read only the 1st page and wrote

Originally posted by: sashashyam

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Do come, all of you - Adiana, Sandhya, Khushi, Mandy - the more the merrier! I will PM my cellphone number and my address to all of you.

Shyamala


</font>

Delhi - I want to come to visit beloved Fatehpur Sikhri b'coz Akbar built it and not b'coz of anything else like someone's jhumka's are seen in pillars etc. Will catch up with Adi and lavi.

Shreya (SP108) is in Bangalore and hope to catch up with her soon.

London is max 1 deg now and nights it is -4. Longing for the heat and sunshine.

The posts are becoming interesting with fights and heated arguments and I am loving it. Which ever thread I will come is most likely to get into a controversy. 😆 Last one has turned interesting with myviewprem's posts. Will catch up during weekend and come back.

Happy weekend to everyone.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

<font size="3" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">My dear Saraswathi Akka,

As I wrote to you before, you praise me so abundantly and extravagantly - to quote from Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's last will and testament to the people of India - that if I could blush, I would by now be closely resembling an over-ripe tomato! I cannot thank you enough.

So you have found out what akhada means! I had fun reading all those impassioned mails, and for two pins, I would have girded my loins and waded into it, but I restrained myself. It is too tiring, for my fingers, though much better than the truly scary condition they were in a month ago - I could not even extract a tablet from the Al foil wrapping - are not normal, and then again, the steroid pills will be stopped next week, and I am concerned about what will happen then. So I did not want to overdo things; my response to Lavanya the day before was already too much! Besides, after a while, one starts going around in circles, like a man in a fog.

I hope you liked the part The darkness descends. I absolutely loved that episode, and I took extra trouble over that section to try and get it just right, which was not easy, and I hope I managed it. The trouble is that most people concentrate only on the supposed Jalal-Jodha love story, gush over (mostly imaginary) romantic moments, and do not even see when there is something exceptional in the script (that is rare enough, alas!) which is of the non-romantic kind.

Actually, Akka, I am more than disappointed with the so-called epic love story the second time around. I think it is because the first time, I had the hope that it would, even if it took time, be something exceptional, though by the time we got to the Sujamal episode, I had lost that hope. This time, one knows that nothing exceptional will come of it, and so there is not even the pleasure of expectation. So it palls very soon if one watches a number of episodes together.

As I wrote to young Devki above, last night <font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">I was
watching all the episodes after these 3 up to No. 90, and the
Jalal-Jodha scenes were, to be frank, predictable, with Jalal pulling
her leg and she puffing her face up as if she had been stung by bees
before flouncing out. And thus boring.

There is nothing at all
of genuine romance between the two of them in the whole of this show, and I
have not missed a single episode other than the mirchi war week, and then the chudail and the British traders track at the end, because even I could not stand them! I hung in there with grim determination even during the Khyber track!

Between these two, there is no frisson at
the other's touch, no meeting of eyes across a room that speak without
words, no desperate yearning to be with the other, no pain of the kind
that turns one inside out. At least not on Jodha's side, for Jalal
clearly goes thru hell when she is dying, and again during the track I
had covered in my Shakespearian heights post. There is no delicate coquetry on her side and no ardent wooing on his. The CVs idea of a romantic scene is a tel maalish, probably because Dabur's Lal Tel was one of the sponsors!😉

When Jodha is
back in Amer after the Sujamal track, she is never shown thinking of
Jalal or missing him, unlike the Jodhaa in the film, who is visibly
restless and unhappy. This Jodha seems perfectly comfortable and
settled at Amer for keeps, even after her mother hints broadly to her
that she should go back. And when Jalal, after scouring the whole
country for her, and abasing himself before her at Mathura, comes to
Amer badly wounded, she does not show even a sliver of caring for him.
It was very off putting.

In fact the only segment that was real in the show so far was
the one in the forest as Jodha is trying to save Jalal from dying. That
was gritty and honest and desperate, and it got to me, as you would
have seen from this post.

But that was not part of any love story. Part of the problem in Jodha Akbar is that one has no
idea what Jodha feels at any given point of time, the Green Jodha being
a one shot exercise. And when she opens her mouth, the effect is, more
often than not, disastrous. Just wait for the part where, after Hawaii
gets violent and attacks Jalal, she goes to him and effectively tells
him that it would be best if he was killed elsewhere than in Amer, so as
not to affect her sister's wedding. At such times I dislike this Jodha
so much that I have to curb myself when analysing her behaviour (though you might not feel that when you read my posts, I am restraining myself at times!😉 )

Then,
all of a sudden, they jump into what one can only call old shoe love,
the sedate affection between two people who have been happily married
for a long, long time. Some of those late scenes were charming, but
again, that is not an epic love story!

So, when I write about
these two, very often I am cooking up things that exist only in my
imagination, for if I did not do that, I could not get anything out at
all. There is no grand amour here, no lovers who are each the
missing half of the other, there is nothing of the kind of love that
comes not cock a hoop with feathers, but slowly, dragging itself on
bleeding feet.

This Jalal is eventually in love with Jodha, and this Jodha is in love with herself and her Amer and her sas. No
wonder he ends up as a compliant poodle, worshipping at her shrine and
periodically flagellating himself emotionally. He actually offers to do it
actually, after she comes back to Agra from Amer! And soon he seems to be doing nothing but hanging around Jodha Begum's hoojra, ending up pressing her feet (not that there is anything basically wrong with that bit, but it was so contrived and so fake!) while the empire is, presumably, on auto-pilot!

By way of contrast, I would like to share with you what I had written, in February 2014, in the Jodha Akbar forum about another show called Ek boond ishq, which I used to watch for about 10 months before I quit. </font></font>
<font size="3" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">

"But give
me Viraf Patel's Mrityunjay in Ek Boond Ishq, and his Tara any
day! The screen is literally lit up by their deep, total emotional
dependence on each other, and their desperate caring for each
other. No one else exists for either of them. That is le grand
amour, not this amar prem that is forever in the making. Alas, Viraf
is reportedly quitting that show soon for Bollywood. Good things, it seems,
never last!

I wonder how it
would be if <font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Rajat</font> got a heroine who
could match him nuance for nuance, or at least project the kind of healing
warmth that he could feel a mile away. That would be something. You
should see the Tara of Ek Boond Ishq. When she looks at her
Mrityunjay from 20 feet away, you feel that she is cuddling all 6'
2" of him in her arms and trying to shield him from every ill wind.
Thus would Savitri have been with her Satyavan. It warms my heart to look at
them together.

Every time I
watch them, especially after the desperate search for each other
that ends at the mandir, my heart goes out to the poor kids. The
way Mrityunjay swallows, his Adam's apple going up and down in sheer
relief, as soon as he sights her was a treat to watch.

Also the scene when a desolate Tara walks
away, going past him and Radha<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">,</font> and he stretches his hand out to hold her back
and nods in the negative, ever so slightly, to reassure her.

I am so happy with Ek
Boond Ishq these days, but I am s<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">ure it is not going to last, alas!"

And it did not, but not because the love story went wrong. It was because the boy was killed,and in the most gruesome fashion. I could not stand the long drawn out, sadistic horror, and I quit. It seems he was resurrected in some odd fashion later, but by then I was no longer interested. In any case, I never went to the Ek Boond Ishq forum for doing any episode analyses. I did that only for two shows, Pavitra Rishta and Jodha Akbar. Coincidentally, both of them were Balaji shows!</font>
</font>
Well, that is enough of that. I think I am missing the debates and all the fun we used to have when I did the daily analyses for Jodha Akbar two years ago. That is why I do not like to go back to places where I have enjoyed myself a lot; it is almost always a mistake. Would you agree with that, Akka?

Shyamala
</font><font size="3">
<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">

</font>

Brilliant . 👏 Somewhere I have seen Saraswath akka pointing that Saraswathi dances on your tongue or fingers !! It is just not the choice of words but the oonchi soch on what should have been an epic love story that makes your writing sparkle.

I have often observed that your analysis does not focus only on JJ. Rather you do a 360 Deg round up of all characters including sheriff, bakshi, Hameeda, Abdul. You always brought out the best and worst in each character so vividly - Your posts are like Kohinoor of all JA writing(I was told that quite a few wrote well) due to this well rounded balanced commentary.

But for some die hard romantics and the akdhaians(who are beyond logic), may be it came across as something harsher on Jodha's character.

I simply loved your commentaries (in first run) have read almost all of them including every comment and responses and was gleed when Jodha hammering was happening. I am not watching rerun. Also a little late in catching up with the rerun threads. But whenever I do, I am enjoying the writing thoroughly.

You are more than spot on about the non-existence of any love story in this serial. Resting on shoulders, applying lep and praising the other half to sky do not quality in a remote sense to me for anything related to love.

In Mrs and Mr Iyer without any physical contact, you could feel it.

Originally posted by: Donjas

This is the most literary post I have read on this forum. First the quotation by Kerentsky, then the comment about about Boccaccio's short story, then the Russian saying on simplicity and finally the Latin 'Sanctus simplicitas'. You have made my day, I was looking exactly for your kind of thought provoking analysis.

My comments on your writings-

1 Point 1 is the same point I raised, but you say it better.

2 I agree totally with point 2, Jodha has a very real fear that Jalal will discard her as he did the rest. In fact Ruqaiya frightened her with exactly this argument that once Jalal had his way with her, she would lose her novelty and Jalal would leave. Even Maham said the same thing about Jalal to her.

So, it is obvious Jodha strongly resists any kind of warm feelings for Jalal because she fears that he will leave her in the end.

3 As for palanquins, it is a cost cutting measure in the serial. The real Mughal ladies would have ox driven carts, elephants and horse drawn carriages. Watch the Indian movie Mughal e Azam on YouTube, first 15 minutes to get some idea of how people travelled in those times.

I love this analysis of yours. I am going to save it to my computer. Than you so much.

Thank you very much for your praise! I am trying now to learn English, but it's difficult for me to offers how precisely it turns out.
I suspected that the fault of the Studio. This is at variance with my knowledge. After all, the second half the 17th century ... Even the ancient Greeks moved more vigorously. 😃

You know the problem is that we expected a love story that would bring life to these words

My dear Sri,

You made my day, do you know that? 🤗I wrote to two people conveying my sadness about the way in which this "epic" love story had turned out, and neither, in their responses, touched on it at all. I am very pleased that you feel the same way I do.

Talking of great love stories, Sanjay Leela Bhansali's Saraswatichandra had exquisite romantic scenes that were beautifully conceived, superbly written, and perfectly enacted. Any time Jennifer Winget begins her next serial, I am going to be there! Of course after about 6 months, it degenerated into melodrama with the heroine marrying another man, then divorcing him and marrying the hero after all, it seems.I say 'it seems' because I quit when she married the wrong guy!

As for your very warm comments about my writing, I accept them with becoming gratitude. Yes, I try to cover all the characters, at times to highlight a comic element, at times to discuss their character traits, and I am glad you enjoy that. I also write a good part of the time with my tongue in my cheek,and I am extra pleased when someone spots and appreciates one joke or the other. Which is not as often as I would like it to be!😉

As for my language, I love words for their own sake, and they, in return, are sometimes kind to me!

Thank you again, Sri.

Shyamala Akka

Originally posted by: jayaks02

Brilliant . 👏 Somewhere I have seen Saraswath akka pointing that Saraswathi dances on your tongue or fingers !! It is just not the choice of words but the oonchi soch on what should have been an epic love story that makes your writing sparkle.

I have often observed that your analysis does not focus only on JJ. Rather you do a 360 Deg round up of all characters including sheriff, bakshi, Hameeda, Abdul. You always brought out the best and worst in each character so vividly - Your posts are like Kohinoor of all JA writing(I was told that quite a few wrote well) due to this well rounded balanced commentary.

But for some die hard romantics and the akdhaians(who are beyond logic), may be it came across as something harsher on Jodha's character.

I simply loved your commentaries (in first run) have read almost all of them including every comment and responses and was gleed when Jodha hammering was happening. I am not watching rerun. Also a little late in catching up with the rerun threads. But whenever I do, I am enjoying the writing thoroughly.

You are more than spot on about the non-existence of any love story in this serial. Resting on shoulders, applying lep and praising the other half to sky do not quality in a remote sense to me for anything related to love.

In Mrs and Mr Iyer without any physical contact, you could feel it.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

<font size="3" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">My dear Saraswathi Akka,

As I wrote to you before, you praise me so abundantly and extravagantly - to quote from Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's last will and testament to the people of India - that if I could blush, I would by now be closely resembling an over-ripe tomato! I cannot thank you enough.

So you have found out what akhada means! I had fun reading all those impassioned mails, and for two pins, I would have girded my loins and waded into it, but I restrained myself. It is too tiring, for my fingers, though much better than the truly scary condition they were in a month ago - I could not even extract a tablet from the Al foil wrapping - are not normal, and then again, the steroid pills will be stopped next week, and I am concerned about what will happen then. So I did not want to overdo things; my response to Lavanya the day before was already too much! Besides, after a while, one starts going around in circles, like a man in a fog.

I hope you liked the part The darkness descends. I absolutely loved that episode, and I took extra trouble over that section to try and get it just right, which was not easy, and I hope I managed it. The trouble is that most people concentrate only on the supposed Jalal-Jodha love story, gush over (mostly imaginary) romantic moments, and do not even see when there is something exceptional in the script (that is rare enough, alas!) which is of the non-romantic kind.

Actually, Akka, I am more than disappointed with the so-called epic love story the second time around. I think it is because the first time, I had the hope that it would, even if it took time, be something exceptional, though by the time we got to the Sujamal episode, I had lost that hope. This time, one knows that nothing exceptional will come of it, and so there is not even the pleasure of expectation. So it palls very soon if one watches a number of episodes together.

As I wrote to young Devki above, last night <font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">I was
watching all the episodes after these 3 up to No. 90, and the
Jalal-Jodha scenes were, to be frank, predictable, with Jalal pulling
her leg and she puffing her face up as if she had been stung by bees
before flouncing out. And thus boring.

There is nothing at all
of genuine romance between the two of them in the whole of this show, and I
have not missed a single episode other than the mirchi war week, and then the chudail and the British traders track at the end, because even I could not stand them! I hung in there with grim determination even during the Khyber track!

Between these two, there is no frisson at
the other's touch, no meeting of eyes across a room that speak without
words, no desperate yearning to be with the other, no pain of the kind
that turns one inside out. At least not on Jodha's side, for Jalal
clearly goes thru hell when she is dying, and again during the track I
had covered in my Shakespearian heights post. There is no delicate coquetry on her side and no ardent wooing on his. The CVs idea of a romantic scene is a tel maalish, probably because Dabur's Lal Tel was one of the sponsors!😉

When Jodha is
back in Amer after the Sujamal track, she is never shown thinking of
Jalal or missing him, unlike the Jodhaa in the film, who is visibly
restless and unhappy. This Jodha seems perfectly comfortable and
settled at Amer for keeps, even after her mother hints broadly to her
that she should go back. And when Jalal, after scouring the whole
country for her, and abasing himself before her at Mathura, comes to
Amer badly wounded, she does not show even a sliver of caring for him.
It was very off putting.

In fact the only segment that was real in the show so far was
the one in the forest as Jodha is trying to save Jalal from dying. That
was gritty and honest and desperate, and it got to me, as you would
have seen from this post.

But that was not part of any love story. Part of the problem in Jodha Akbar is that one has no
idea what Jodha feels at any given point of time, the Green Jodha being
a one shot exercise. And when she opens her mouth, the effect is, more
often than not, disastrous. Just wait for the part where, after Hawaii
gets violent and attacks Jalal, she goes to him and effectively tells
him that it would be best if he was killed elsewhere than in Amer, so as
not to affect her sister's wedding. At such times I dislike this Jodha
so much that I have to curb myself when analysing her behaviour (though you might not feel that when you read my posts, I am restraining myself at times!😉 )

Then,
all of a sudden, they jump into what one can only call old shoe love,
the sedate affection between two people who have been happily married
for a long, long time. Some of those late scenes were charming, but
again, that is not an epic love story!

So, when I write about
these two, very often I am cooking up things that exist only in my
imagination, for if I did not do that, I could not get anything out at
all. There is no grand amour here, no lovers who are each the
missing half of the other, there is nothing of the kind of love that
comes not cock a hoop with feathers, but slowly, dragging itself on
bleeding feet.

This Jalal is eventually in love with Jodha, and this Jodha is in love with herself and her Amer and her sas. No
wonder he ends up as a compliant poodle, worshipping at her shrine and
periodically flagellating himself emotionally. He actually offers to do it
actually, after she comes back to Agra from Amer! And soon he seems to be doing nothing but hanging around Jodha Begum's hoojra, ending up pressing her feet (not that there is anything basically wrong with that bit, but it was so contrived and so fake!) while the empire is, presumably, on auto-pilot!

By way of contrast, I would like to share with you what I had written, in February 2014, in the Jodha Akbar forum about another show called Ek boond ishq, which I used to watch for about 10 months before I quit."But giveme Viraf Patel's Mrityunjay in Ek Boond Ishq, and his Tara any day! The screen is literally lit up by their deep, total emotional dependence on each other, and their desperate caring for eachother. No one else exists for either of them. That is le grandamour, not this amar prem that is forever in the making. Alas, Virafis reportedly quitting that show soon for Bollywood. Good things, it seems,never last!

I wonder how it would be if Rajat got a heroine who could match him nuance for nuance, or at least project the kind of healing warmth that he could feel a mile away. That would be something. You
should see the Tara of Ek Boond Ishq. When she looks at her Mrityunjay from 20 feet away, you feel that she is cuddling all 6' 2" of him in her arms and trying to shield him from every ill wind.
Thus would Savitri have been with her Satyavan. It warms my heart to look at them together.

Every time Iwatch them, especially after the desperate search for each other that ends at the mandir, my heart goes out to the poor kids. The way Mrityunjay swallows, his Adam's apple going up and down in sheerrelief, as soon as he sights her was a treat to watch.

Also the scene when a desolate Tara walks away, going past him and Radha and he stretches his hand out to hold her back and nods in the negative, ever so slightly, to reassure her.

I am so happy with Ek Boond Ishq these days, but I am sure it is not going to last, alas!"

And it did not, but not because the love story went wrong. It was because the boy was killed,and in the most gruesome fashion. I could not stand the long drawn out, sadistic horror, and I quit. It seems he was resurrected in some odd fashion later, but by then I was no longer interested. In any case, I never went to the Ek Boond Ishq forum for doing any episode analyses. I did that only for two shows, Pavitra Rishta and Jodha Akbar. Coincidentally, both of them were Balaji shows!

Well, that is enough of that. I think I am missing the debates and all the fun we used to have when I did the daily analyses for Jodha Akbar two years ago. That is why I do not like to go back to places where I have enjoyed myself a lot; it is almost always a mistake. Would you agree with that, Akka?

Shyamala

At last! Someone besides Sri shares my views on this 'epic love story'! Hallelujah!!

Your quotations, Adiana, are perfect as usual, though the first one is rather gruesome. Your pitara is, as always, an Alladin's cave!

Shyamala

Originally posted by: adiana12

You know the problem is that we expected a love story that would bring life to these words

Kaaga sab tan khaayo, mhara chun chun khaayo maans

Do naina mat khaayo, jise piya milan ki aas

But what we got was one synonymous with these lines

Saajan aisi preet na karyo jaise ped khajoor

Dhoop lage toh chaon nahin, bhook lage phal dur

All thanks to mahaanta, gpsing, self righteous I can never be wrong ishtory

😆😆😆

My dear Zhanna,

I would like to thank you especially for such kind and interesting comments, and also for ploughing thru my lo...oo..ng posts so patiently and making sense of them! Now this response of yours is, as Donjas had also noted, markedly literary.

I know something of Kerensky from the time when I, as a young diplomat, studied Russian history, especially of the revolution. In such an upheaval, especially with the Bolsheviks waiting in the wings, he was not the kind of man to .last as a Minister. But I had no idea he had such poor eyesight. What you have said, quoting him, is revealing about Kerensky the man. He seems to have been an escapist, for apart from his visual handicap, he does not seem to have been interested in details at all.

What stuck in my mind about him was that the Orthodox churches in the US refused him burial, because they blamed him for the success of the Bolsheviks and because of his being a Freemason, and his body thus had to be flown to England and buried in a cemetery there. Is this account correct?

As for the Ruqaiya-Maham rationale for Jodha's attitude towards normal marital relations, I have noted in this post that this might very well have been so. But I have added also at least 3 instances of Jalal's behaviour with her from which Jodha could have deduced that he is not thinking only of that aspect when it comes to her. That is in the Devaluing herself section and it reads as follows:

"Maybe, as I had written once before, the affirmation, by Ruqaiya and Maham, that once this was over and done with, she would be junked by Jalal, has sunk so deep into Jodha's subconscious that it submerges all else.

But even allowing for this, why does it not occur to such an intelligent girl that if this was indeed so, there would be no way she could hold Jalal off indefinitely? Nor to wonder why he does not make the slightest move towards physical intimacy with her? Why he assured her, after rescuing her from the pool, Bhale hi hamare beech shauhar aur biwi ka rishta nahin ho, lekin aapko wo saari sahooliyatein muqammal ki jaayengi jo ek begum ke liye hoti hain.

Unfortunately, this Jodha seems incapable of deducing, from Jalal's sustained forbearance, that he might want something more from her, and that she might mean something more to him than his marital rights. This Jodha never thinks of telling Jalal, as Jodhaa does in the film, Aapne hum par fateh ki hai, aapne hamara dil nahin jeeta hai!"

Finally, your parallel between Jodha's behaviour and O sancta simplicitas! is brilliant.

I shall look out for your comments on the remaining parts of this post.

Shyamala Di

Originally posted by: alffim

Dear Shyamala Di!
My admiration for you! 👏👏 👏

To me it reached long, long as to the giraffe), but I understood why dear Shyamala not accept such Jodha. Not only I understand, would say also, in unison. 😊

Not in his own defense, but to explain their point of view. Minister Kerensky was a very short-sighted, almost to blindness. Him to the offer to purchase glasses and he said, " Why do I have see freckles on face miss Kirsty, when I, barely distinguishing her, guess this girl everything that I want to guess? Why would I want clouds on the Finnic sky when I see the stormy ocean over my head? Why do see I have lines when I have color?"

After falling under the spell of Paridhi, I saw what I wanted (?) to see.

But, I, in general, is quite a hard man, life gives experience and cynicism about the pink foam, and I prefer self-irony and irony.

I understand your point of view on this concrete Jodha and agreeing with this

Even denying sexual relations with him, she could do it, if not royalty but with the dignity not to look stupid and vulgar, and so that Jalal couldn't pin up to her. And he would be remain in loss...

But I still I still consider that she had a right to refuse him.

I wanted to write the same idea as the Donzhas, I had long time been trying to adapt the emotions Jodha:

if an SS officer wanted to marry a Jewish girl (completely unrealistic, but suppose!), but definitely would have told her that this is her personal and long hell. Just for the sake of her humiliation. AND???

1. After Jalal in the first night in Agra, to go under Jalal - humiliation, after which only immediate death. To live after that - impossible. I'm not talking about physical damage, but psychological and moral. Even in a fire it would be easier. I think even the attack of a rapist, Jodha would have survived easier than the night with Jalal.

Though both of them tried to spoil for each other as much as possible.

2. I think the option that he after spending the night with her, she would just - nnn ... for Jalal and the target of ridicule for ALL in the harem, and for Jalal firstly.

I already wrote that maybe in harem women were the same talented, intelligent, noble, brave, loving even sabre fencing. But they were so meekly: "at your service" that Jalal wasn't interesting with them. And while he was chasing after this Jodha and argued with her, they had appeared general subjects for communication and discovered the similarity of their characters... And banal phrase from physics for to human relations: similar charges repel. 😛

As a joke: maybe subconsciously Jodha knows that Jalal loves her, not hates (and therefore the theme of their proximity all the time POPs up)? And Jalal subconsciously refused to admit to myself that she's not a "trophy" and not to break her self-esteem. But since knowledge this is the unconscious, then Jodha can not say to yourself, "he loves me" (we say "brake", about a man who's thinking slowly 😊), she is stubborn: "he is only horrible, he is bad".
The question that torments Russian forums: what was real, except for two conditions?
Maybe, as young Khushi has suggested on my last thread, Jodha wants Jalal to make advances to her so that she can have the pleasure of humiliating him by turning them down (provided always that she could manage it, which is far from certain!) . So when he shows no signs of obliging her, she prods him with such rants so that he is enraged enough to react as she wants him to.

Boccaccio had a similar story of provoking and in the book "Italian short Novel of Renaissance "

Thought of the day: If I had been Jalal, I would have handed the snake back to Jodha along with the dupatta and told her, Agar aapko hamare zariya saanp se bachne se itna hi aitraaz hai, to lijiya, sambhaliye aap hi, dupatta bhi aur saanp bhi!👏👏 👏

Question of the day: Why on earth is there only the very slow palki for travelling women in Jodha Akbar, and not some kind of four wheeled vehicle like a coach drawn by 2 or 4 horses? Or even a 2 wheeled one? Such coaches were familiar all over Europe and England during this period, and for centuries before that. As for India, even our puranas describe horse-drawn rathas, or chariots. How come there is this regression to palkis in these period dramas? Imagine how long it would have taken for a palki to traverse the distance from Agra to Ajmer!

This is a question I was very interested. Especially strange looking harem hike in palanquins and on foot to war with Shihnaz. It was, as of the educated ruler who was interested in all the military innovations have made very stone age.

The turning of the tide

I want to again thank you for your accuracy of the images and literary style, which can not spoil even the translator program.

The fact is that Jodha is a very warmhearted and good girl, but she is opinionated, unyielding in her prejudices, and with no understanding of anything beyond her Amer, like a frog in a well. She is like a small town girl pitchforked into the capital of an empire, with none of the understanding of the complexities of imperial governance that the gentle and equally goodhearted Salima has.

Worse, Jodha seems to have no desire to learn either, exulting instead in simple minded self-righteousness. She does not and will not understand that for her imperial husband, the choices are rarely between good and bad, black and white. That they are mostly between the bad and the worse, between two shades of grey. She has been spoilt by her whole family and told constantly that she can do no wrong, and here in Agra, Hamida Banu spoils her even worse. No wonder she is the way she is.

But to cut her some slack - yes, I do that occasionally! Wink- she was imagining that it would be a nirdosh pashu like a deer, not a khoonkhaar pashu like our Mohan. The blood freezes in her veins as soon as she realises what is surging out of the undergrowth!

Quiz for the day: Guess the number of times Jodha uses the words nirdosh pashu in the hunt segment. No cheating by rewatching the episode and counting!

Not really suitable here Russian saying, but I want more exact to her behavior. "Simplicity - worse than stealing." "OTHER simplicity worse than stealing. Or option: holy simplicity worse than stealing. Difference feel?(c)" :)

And here the Latin: "O sancta simplicitas"

When a person steals, he understands what goes wrong. Therefore, in. principle, able to distinguish between "good" and "bad", and as a result is capable of repentance. In their simplicity people do not understand what makes a bad act ... which means it will do so from time to time. And about any remorse and there can be no question. (c)

I'm sorry, but a lot of work and I read only the 1st page and wrote.

Never mind them, my dear Donjas, let us, you and me, concentrate on the episodes! I shall look forward to the rest of your comments, especially on Episode 81.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: Donjas

This thread is turning into a kitty club outing instead of cold factual analysis of the episode.

😊😳Oh how o wish i was in India,good going keep it up