grappling with the king, biting and scratching him, - Page 3

Originally posted by: myviewprem

I agree that Jehangir loved Nur Jahan very much like teenager romance they both in their 40s and 50s

Jehangir was a very secure man allowed his wife to have coins after her

Also allowed her to sit in durbar in his absence on his seat and listen to issues and pass orders

Shah Jahan allowed mumtaz to sit behind him on throne when he passed judgements and if she disagreed she would hold his shoulder in her hand and whisper her opinion

Atleast two men who gave equal rights to wives in 16th century and were not shy to display it openly . But Nur Jahan misued that power to promote her family and spilt Jehangir's while Mumtaz used it to isolate Shah Jahan's other wives and kids from other wives.

Salima begum did the same for Akbar but behind purdah in women section not on throne

Aurangzeb never allowed his wives any voice in administration or even family affairs

yes she did to survive & to make her position stable & i don't find anything wrong in it 😳
as compare to great Mughal shenshas who slaughtered millions of people,including imprisioning & killing own relatives,filling there harems with womens history call them eternal lover ,great shensha 🤢 then why not appriciate the extra ordinary role played by Nur Jahan

but the entire success of nur jahan family cannot be laid upon nur jahan completly it was started long way back during Akbar region Nur father & many of her relatives already appointed on high imperial posts in Mughal courts
nur jahan father Ghiyas Beg immigrated from Iran to Hindustan in Akbar region for prosperity during the journey Nur Jahan was born in Qandahar
1577 Akbar appointed Ghiyas Beg on mansab of 300 & soon later as Treasurer of Kabul
1596 Ghiyas Beg was promoted to mansab of 700 & appointed in charge of buildings at the imperial court during Akbar region
other family member were too appointed on provincial ranks during Akbar region as per there own performence & talents
Nur Jahan maternal uncle Ghiyasuddin Ali given title Asaf Khan 2 by Akbar in 1573
Jafar Beg title Asaf Khan(3) 1577 in Akbar rule was Nur father first cousin he also got promotion later during Jahangir region in 1607 appointed as Vakil-Khilat-i-Khas he played a loyal role making Jahangir assassination plan unsuccessful
Nur husband Sher Afgan had been given the jagir in Bengal by Jahangir after succession in 1605 (the reasons are debatable)
other family members of Nur like Aqa Mulla, Ahmad Beg Khan Kabuli & Abdul Qasim Namakin were too rewarded by Jahangir for there loyalty in Khusrou affair that time Nur Jahangir were not married
Nur Jahan married with Jahangir in 1611 so saying only Nur Jahan given entry & promotions to her family members is not true the marrige bought only promotion for the above members who've already made there place in the Mughal court but yes new memebrs entry like Abul Hasan Asaf Khan 4 & Nur brother in laws & sisters etc made there way in the court after the marrige & Nur played a vital role bringing them but Beg family already made there place in Mughal court before the marrige


"A few days passed in this manner, and I only imparted this to Nur Jahan Begum than whom I did not think anyone was fonder of me.." - Emperor Jahangir,(on his continued illness) Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri

Nur Jahan split Jahangir i don't think so Jahangir him self claims no one loved him more than Nur Jahan.She was immensely indebted to jahangir for having brought her out of a widow's miserable life and made her the most important woman in the whole empire & from this gratitude and sense of mutual trust, sprung devoted love. She was more of a wife, best friend, philosopher and guide to him. as a queen she holded the pillars of empire when the king Jahangir was swinging between addiction & sickness
in mahabat khan rebellion war after defeat Nur brother Asaf Khan & some other trusted noble mens fled away from battle field but she surrendered to make sure the King jahangir her husband is not harmed she won back her husband honour through diplomacy & she played a vital role making Shah Jahan rebellion unsuccessful on administrative side had her own army & a fleet of powerful ships that traded on international waters with China and other foreign countries & bought prosperity & wealth for empire ,she designed exquisite and innovative garments, made perfume out of Damask roses, gave generously to the cause of women and paid off the dowry for poor girls. She commissioned the most painstakingly beautiful gardens, monuments and inns. She was a brave hunter.

according to Abraham Eraly
should Nur Jahan be commended or condemed for her role? gender prejudice of her age as well as of later times condemns her but against the evidence of facts.
Nur Jahan won her place in the empire by Jahangir's favour but her place in history by her own exceptional political & administrative skills. Nur Jahan a worthy & capable ruler & administrator & to criticize her alone for her unbound ambition & power loving nature will be wrong & biased on our part.

Fate had decreed that she (Nur Jahan) should be the Queen of the World and the Princess
of the Time . . .
Ikbal-nama-i-jahangiri of Mutamad Khan

There are two sides of the coin

@jodah @ myviewprem nice discussion 😊

Originally posted by: myviewprem

There are two sides of the coin

Nur Jahan wanted to secure her and her daughter's life despite Jehangir being so considerate to them after his death. So she tried to get Khurram(shah jahan) to marry her daughter but he refused as he loved meherunissa, then she tried wooing khusrau who again refused as he loved his wife.

Hence she started to try and reduce shah jahan influence and closeness to jehangir and ensured he got assignments where he stayed away from mughal court in far off places like deccan. Shah Jahan got insecure because of this and his growing distance and misunderstanding with jehangir and that she wants to make shariyar a useless and incapable prince as next emperor and rebelled. Shah jahan even became an orthodox muslim because he wanted to woo the mughal nobels in his favour because of nur jahan scheming ways.

Nur jahan also handed over khusrau to shah jahan knowing fully well he will kill his elder brother for throne as he put that condition to go to deccan campaign. And indeed shah jahan killed khusrau in most brutal way in jail cell in sleep.

Nur Jahan even sent parvez too far off on campaign so only shariyar remains close to court and jehangir so he can be declared emperor next.

Dara Sikoh and Aurangzeb were taken hostage at a young age and this must have impacted their psyche too

Thus all the capable sons to throne either were sent away or ensured killed thus ensuring only shariyar lived. If shah jahan had not rebelled who knows she may have schemed to cause his death too.

Jehangir wanted Khusrau elder son who was a good liberal human to be next king but that was also not allowed by nur jahan.

So just because nur jahan did not directly kill anyone we cannot say she was a good person. Indirectly she destroyed many lives and family and even mughal empire with her scheming ways.

When one family member schemes so much others to save themselves from getting destroyed become orthodox, rebel, kill etc its a natural way of saving themselves. In order to kill someone its not necessary to only kill physically the greatest pain is when someone lives insecurely without knowing what may happen in long term. That happened to Shah jahan and his siblings they were so scared of each other wanting to kill each other to ensure that they live. The previous generations were not so insecure to kill own siblings ithout provocation like Shah jahan and his siblings. That was because they were insecure by all scheming and it turned to particide finally to save themselves and their children.

Jehangir loved nur jahan very much that does not mean nur jahan loved him the same. Who knows with what intention she acted if she really loved him because she never wrote any autobiography who knows what was she thinking and what was going on in her head? All people who love you need not love you genuinely they may do so with ulterior motives. Nur Jahan knew her power came because of jehangir and not vice versa so him living mattered to her the most.

When jehangir was taken hostage even shah jahan forgot all anger on his father and came with his army to rescue him and his kids. But he was already rescued before and nur jahan told him to go back to deccan.

Very good analisys, myviewprem, of the relationship bet Jahangir n Nurjahan.👏 It only goes on to prove that u r alone at the top.U become ruthless not only by default but by circumstances.And finally whom did Nur got her ladli begum married to?Shariyar?son frm baandi?All these persons were step bros not even cousins.😲

Originally posted by: roshanehkhan

@jodah @ myviewprem nice discussion 😊

thanks i like talking about Nur ❤️

Originally posted by: myviewprem

There are two sides of the coin

Nur Jahan wanted to secure her and her daughter's life despite Jehangir being so considerate to them after his death. So she tried to get Khurram(shah jahan) to marry her daughter but he refused as he loved arjumand bano, then she tried wooing khusrau who again refused as he loved his wife.

Hence she started to try and reduce shah jahan influence and closeness to jehangir and ensured he got assignments where he stayed away from mughal court in far off places like deccan. Shah Jahan got insecure because of this and his growing distance and misunderstanding with jehangir and that she wants to make shariyar a useless and incapable prince as next emperor and rebelled. Shah jahan even became an orthodox muslim because he wanted to woo the mughal nobels in his favour because of nur jahan scheming ways.

Nur jahan also handed over khusrau to shah jahan knowing fully well he will kill his elder brother for throne as he put that condition to go to deccan campaign. And indeed shah jahan killed khusrau in most brutal way in jail cell in sleep.

Nur Jahan even sent parvez too far off on campaign so only shariyar remains close to court and jehangir so he can be declared emperor next.

Dara Sikoh and Aurangzeb were taken hostage at a young age and this must have impacted their psyche too

Thus all the capable sons to throne either were sent away or ensured killed thus ensuring only shariyar lived. If shah jahan had not rebelled who knows she may have schemed to cause his death too.

Jehangir wanted Khusrau elder son who was a good liberal human to be next king but that was also not allowed by nur jahan.

So just because nur jahan did not directly kill anyone we cannot say she was a good person. Indirectly she destroyed many lives and family and even mughal empire with her scheming ways.

When one family member schemes so much others to save themselves from getting destroyed become orthodox, rebel, kill etc its a natural way of saving themselves. In order to kill someone its not necessary to only kill physically the greatest pain is when someone lives insecurely without knowing what may happen in long term. That happened to Shah jahan and his siblings they were so scared of each other wanting to kill each other to ensure that they live. The previous generations were not so insecure to kill own siblings ithout provocation like Shah jahan and his siblings. That was because they were insecure by all scheming and it turned to particide finally to save themselves and their children.

Jehangir loved nur jahan very much that does not mean nur jahan loved him the same. Who knows with what intention she acted if she really loved him because she never wrote any autobiography who knows what was she thinking and what was going on in her head? All people who love you need not love you genuinely they may do so with ulterior motives. Nur Jahan knew her power came because of jehangir and not vice versa so him living mattered to her the most.

When jehangir was taken hostage even shah jahan forgot all anger on his father and came with his army to rescue him and his kids. But he was already rescued before and nur jahan told him to go back to deccan.

i already said '' she did to survive & to make her position stable & i don't find
anything wrong in it 😳 as compare to great Mughal shenshas who slaughtered millions of people,including imprisioning & killing own relatives,filling there harems with womens history call them eternal lover ,great shensha 🤢 then why not appriciate the extra ordinary role played by Nur Jahan

in Nur case you can say power corrupts but Shah Jahan case power corrupts absulotly
Nur did manipulations she made situations which worked in her favour she didn't gave any hire to Jahangir nor she was from a royal family she tried her best to made her bloodline royal first tried to made her only daughter Laadli married Shah Jahan then Khusrav but failed then satteled with Sheryaar ,she kept Shah Jahan kids in custody(not in prison) to made him bow & not to rebell again we argue on Nur involvment on the excution of Khusrav as most of the historian do but Nur never issued any order or Farmaan to execute any Mughal member
i don't deny her scheming & ploting for the throne but
Nur scheming plotting for the throne can not be a excuse to clear Shah Jahan for all the brutality executing his family members

Shah Jahan issued Farmaan ''it would be well if Dawar Bakhsh the son, and (Shahriyar) the uselessbrother, of Khusru, and the sons of Prince Daniyal, were all sent out of the
world. With this, he was convinced, all possible competition for the throne
would be gone.'' 🤢
as per Shah Jahan order Shahryar, Dawar Bakhsh, and two of the sons of Daniyal, Tahmuras and Hoshang were killed infact Sheryaar was blinded first

the events happened after Jahngir death
after Jahangir death Nur Jahan was putten under strict house arrest some says she was imprisoned all three sons of Shah Jahan Dara Shikoh, Shah Shuja, and Aurangzeb were taken away from Nur custody during Jahangir funeral Nur was strcitly gaurded all her communication sources were cut down the last message Nur sent to her son in law Sheryaar advising him to collect as many men as he could, and hasten to her but Sheryaar forces were defeated by Shah Jahan loyal nobles & Sheryaar was impriosed & blinded then excecuted
Nur was trailed & exiled( she requested to be exiled to Lahore where her husband Jahangir was interred) Nur was putten on anual pension by Shaha Jahan

well Shah Jahan was to see these events repeated when, at the end of his own life & they were much painful & saddest then comapre to Nur Jahan

Nur Jahan Shah Jahan both reaped in there exiled what they had sown as the emperor & the Empress but if we had look carefuly we got many answers

after exiled Nur spent next eighteen years, until her death in 1645 in Lahore designing and constructing her husband Jahangir tomb & her own tomb
According to tradition, after Jahangir's death Nur Jahan never went to parties of amusement of her own
accord, but lived in private & in sorrow as per Shujauddins Nur was often seen visiting the grave of her beloved husband accompanied by her slave-girls and attendants
it is said Nur turned to religious activities & charities in her exiled period Nur was said to be ''mother to orphans''
K.S Lal writes "Nur Jahan had won his(Jahngir) heart with her devotion.
She died wiser than she was at any stage of her ascendancy.
a historian Saksena said that Nur Jahan, throughout all this time, remained faithful to the memory of her dead husband(Jahangir)
Bani Prasad says," Her funeral was a modest one,"
and she was buried in a tomb near Jahangir she had constructed for herself.

Originally posted by: geeta58

Very good analisys, myviewprem, of the relationship bet Jahangir n Nurjahan.👏 It only goes on to prove that u r alone at the top.U become ruthless not only by default but by circumstances.And finally whom did Nur got her ladli begum married to?Shariyar?son frm baandi?All these persons were step bros not even cousins.😲

actually as per Islamic law it is allowed because Laadli father was Sher Afghan
about Prince Sheryaar i read he was from a concubine & he was the most handsome of all the princes but he suffered by a dieases which caused
his hairs,eye brows fall he turned completly blad
Nur called him Na-shudani "Good-for-Nothing in her last letter & advised him to collect as many men as he could, and hasten to her but
Sheryaar proclaimed himself emperor in Lahore after Jahngir death he had no experience, or stamina for military tactics his forces were defeated by Shah Jahan loyals
he was blinded & imprisoned then killed as per Shaha Jahan order

There is a famous saying As you sow so shall you reap

@myviewprem & jodah thank-you for the history info plz carry on I like to read more from you guys 👍🏼

Originally posted by: myviewprem

There is a famous saying As you sow so shall you reap

Salim sowed rebellion against father Akbar(though it was a juvinile effort) his two sons rebelled against him and Khusrau tried killing him thrice

Khurram rebelled against father killed almost 50 male relatives(yes all of daniyal's sons and his brother and their sons but along with that he killed many other relatives) and his own three sons surrounded agra fort to kill and arrest him when he was unwell and he was imprisoned in jail for 8 or 10 years

Khusrau rebeeled against father Jehangir made plots to kill him but finally was killed in sleep in prison

Aurangzeb killed his 3 brothers their families destroyed killed his brothers kids killed his sister roshanara imprisoned his 4 sons and one daughter for silly offences and grandsons too and put his father in jail etc but he died alone. After his death his sons did not want to bury him they were actually maybe happy that he was no more they can live without fear of his warth for no offence.

But among all these i feel sorry for Dara Sikoh a great prince and human the way killed in most brutal way by aurangzeb no funeral given, his 3 sons killed most brutally and buried in taitor cemetery, his baby daughter jani the way she was treated by roshanara and aurangzeb till jahanara rescued her and his wife nadira dying of cancer and him not able to bury her and his 3rd wife ranadil being tortured so much in prison. One of the most brutal and cruel sibling rivarly that i have ever read was the way aurangzeb treated dara sikoh and his wives and children and their families. This after Dara Sikoh was poisoned by Aurangzeb at age of 19 and shah jahan wanted to punish him but dara sikoh asked him to be pardoned unbelievable heights of hatredness for an elder sibling by aurangzeb.

After dara sikoh it was Akbar hanged from kabul fort by kamran to stop humayun's attack to release Akbar but atleast Kamran was a step brother.

Will u please explain the last para? who hanged whom frm Kabul fort? which Akbar u r talking abt?