Jodha Akbar 200: In the slough of despond - Page 88

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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
My dear Vinita,

This is really a spirited defence of Jodha and I would applaud you for it. But there is a clear difference between this case and the other two you have cited. Let me try and explain why.

1) Jalal was (very irresponsibly, as I wrote in my post The demands of Rajadharma ) ready to give up his throne and abandon the awaam he was duty bound to protect to the horrors of civil war, probably ending in a regime of the worst sort under the likes of Adham Khan, just to keep his word to Jodha. I had then criticised Jalal as criminally foolish. When there is a clash between the public good and a private commitment of a ruler, the public good must always prevail. That is rajadharma.

But at least there it was to protect a specific right, that of Jodha to retain her faith and not be forced to convert.

2) When Jalal had given a shahi farman that he would give the bearer anything he wanted, and he told Jodha she could have asked for his head, I think he was joking, and/or teasing her. I do not at all think he meant it literally. Why, if that was so, no ruler could grant such boons to anyone! Even setting this aside, it was at least a written commitment.

Now here, there is no rationale for this vachan at all, once Jalal has seen the fake khwaja sera in Jodha's rooms. Sujamal, who is presumably not a dunce, should have realised at once what Jalal was bound to think as soon he saw them together, if he was not told that Sujamal was her brother. Why, if Bharmal has seen a strange man in his daughter's rooms, he would have executed both the daughter and the intruder. Remember his reaction to Jodha's moonlight boatride with Suryabhan, her fiance?

What was Sujamal's original reason, tenuous as it was, for the vachan Jodha had taken initially? That Jodha should not get into trouble by being seen to meet an enemy of the Mughal sultanate. Now, that has been renewed, her hand on his head, for exactly the same reason , unhe tum par shak ho jayega.

But once Jalal had seen both of them together in her rooms, all this went automatically out of the window. Anyone, Rajvanshi or not, would know what any husband would think of his wife if the situation was not clarified at once. So why does he not release her from the vachan at once? Why does she not ask him to do so, since the situation was bound to be fatal for him if she stayed silent?

I do not know how much Jodha understands of what agony her husband is going thru, for as I described her once, she is like a clear, burbling brook, shallow and uncomprehending of deep passions. At least her face yesterday did not indicate much grasp of what this betrayal (as he is bound to see it) by the wife he had come to love does to Jalal. If I had been in her place, it would have been what I was doing to this husband who loves me that would have mattered the most. Not, it seems, to her.But that did not surprise me.

Jodha was not hurting anyone but Jalal, and herself at one remove.

And as for the sacredness of one's word, it is not limited to any one group, though from the writings in this forum, one would hardly think so. Jalal is as true to his word as any Rajvanshi, and so would his father, or Hamida Banu,or Jahangir later have been.

But there are no absolutes in any situation, and the pros and cons have to be weighed. The greatest good of the greatest number has to prevail; it cannot be sacrificed at the altar of this kind of personal vanity.That is true whether it is Jalal being ready to abandon his throne (the import of which Jodha never grasped, for she described it later merely as his being ready to take on the mullahs!) or Jodha now, abandoning her husband to the anguish of feeling betrayed by the one he trusted above all.


Shyamala B.Cowsik

Originally posted by: vinitaj27

I agree that jodha was hurting everyone by keeping quiet but we have to remember she herself is the one who is hurt the most. She said to benazir once that I don't fear losing my life but my dignity n self respect. Here she is being accused of adultery, the worst crime possible for a woman and knows that she will not have a place in amer too after this but she is still not able to break her vachan coz that's what has been inbred in her from the time of her birth that no matter what the situation is like or how bad the circumstances are one is not supposed to break ur vachan. Jalal himself was ready to give up his throne for his word. Not only that if u guys remember he told jodha during the sword fighting scene that she could have asked for his head in lieu of his vachan and he would have been obliged to give it o her. So how is this different? Isn't she doing the same. For a Rajput or rajvanshi ur vachan came above everything else be it ur life, ur dignity , ur family or ur kingdom. She is as much caught in this mess as he is. Imagine her plight knowing that she is innocent, and that after this she o longer has a home or a place to live in or anyone to help her she still cannot break her word. History is full of Rajputs who gave up all they hd go keep thr word. U cn call them foolish but it was what they were taught o believe in.

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Fascinating, Adiana, my dear. But then you are always a bundle of surprises, are you not?

Also, this shows that the security apparatus was really as bad as is shown here, if not worse, seeing that a mn sneaked in as an eunuch, and that too without the kind of surreptitious support Sujamal got from Mahaam!😉

Shyamala

Originally posted by: adianasr



Yes Tripti, since I have read the fiction version in the Nehru library and did a little more research and got to know that there may have been a man in the disguise of a KS for a very short period of time present in Akbar's harem - yes it does seem EK has done her research!!!

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Like, my pets, is hardly the correct word,but I have written a good bit about this already! Rajat turned himself inside out.

Shyamala/ Aunty

adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Well Shyamala, how the man got in without being caught out and other details were not mentioned - which means he must have had some kind of inside help perhaps - but unfortunately history records are a linear narrative that only give info of events at best - never the surrounding fascinating stories!!!

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Fascinating, Adiana, my dear. But then you are always a bundle of surprises, are you not?

Also, this shows that the security apparatus was really as bad as is shown here, if not worse, seeing that a mn sneaked in as an eunuch, and that too without the kind of surreptitious support Sujamal got from Mahaam!😉

Shyamala

Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: adianasr

After seeing RT's performance yesterday, I now would really like to see him on stage doing Othello, Hamlet, Marc Anthony from Caesar, Shylock, King Lear, and the character of Captain Bluntschli (Chocolate cream Soldier!!!) from Shaw's Arms and the Man (love his self deprecating sense of humor and satire and subtle sarcasm).

Captain Bluntchli is one of my favourites too though not in the same league as Rhett Butler or Darcy. The play focusses more on the hollowness of war than the characters themselves. Anyway, the role full of satire would be a child's play for Rajat. Our Aadham Khan too could do Sergius easily. But if given in Ekta's hands, Raina would end up with lectures and lectures on non-violence (nirdosh sipahiyon ki suraksha) and utter blankness in love that Bluntchli would have wished he had a tape to shut her mouth instead of chocolates in his pockets.
There are many more but these are definitely a must watch if he ever decides to do theatre!!!

As for Paridhi, I have mentioned my take on her in an earlier post. Just to add to it, she is good but when facing brilliance good is just not good enough!!!
@bold: Very well put.👏👏👏👏

Adi,
I am sure Rajat would do full justice to Mark Antony. I would love to see him do a Petruchio too.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: vinitaj27

I agree that jodha was hurting everyone by keeping quiet but we have to remember she herself is the one who is hurt the most. She said to benazir once that I don't fear losing my life but my dignity n self respect. Here she is being accused of adultery, the worst crime possible for a woman and knows that she will not have a place in amer too after this but she is still not able to break her vachan coz that's what has been inbred in her from the time of her birth that no matter what the situation is like or how bad the circumstances are one is not supposed to break ur vachan. Jalal himself was ready to give up his throne for his word. Not only that if u guys remember he told jodha during the sword fighting scene that she could have asked for his head in lieu of his vachan and he would have been obliged to give it o her. So how is this different? Isn't she doing the same. For a Rajput or rajvanshi ur vachan came above everything else be it ur life, ur dignity , ur family or ur kingdom. She is as much caught in this mess as he is. Imagine her plight knowing that she is innocent, and that after this she o longer has a home or a place to live in or anyone to help her she still cannot break her word. History is full of Rajputs who gave up all they hd go keep thr word. U cn call them foolish but it was what they were taught o believe in.

Vinita,
When Jalal was prepared to give up his throne for the sake of his word, the purpose of his promise - Jodha's religious freedom was intact. (Even Harishchandra gave up his throne for the sake of his word to Vishwamitra - and the purpose of his promise was intact)
But now, here, the purpose of the vachan - prevention of strain in Jodha Jalal relationship is in tatters.
Moreover, the vachan was not to reveal about their night meetings or of their talks. NOT saying that he was her brother, not saying that she has always been loyal to Jalal and is unable to break a promise made to the person who Jalal thought was her lover and that that person had come to save Jalal. When she had admitted to knowing Suja anyway with a haan to Jalal's question under oath of Kanha ki kasam, when she said bachpan se, and when she knew that Jalal was suspecting a gair mard, why not add - mere bhai hain or that there in no najaayaz rishta and she will explain things to Jalal after she asks that man to de-vachan her and why not march to the prison with Jalal, as usual and demand Suja Bhaisa to tell Jalal the truth himself as silence is hurting Jalal and spoiling their relationship and the purpose of the vachan is already in pieces?
All our epics, our religious texts, though insist on satya, have always said that satya has to take a backseat if it is a question of dharma. No promise is greater than what is good or what is right. That is why Yudhishtra tells a lie that Ashwathama is dead to Dronacharya in the war, because dharma was more important.
Jodha, if even after seeing Jalal's anguish, utter pain and agony chooses to remain silent instead of conveying the truth by circumventing the vachan or keeping the vachan and choosing alternate words to assure Jalal, there is nothing to applaud here. Her plight is self wrought but she has no right to pain anyone else for the sake of her vachan. Here Jalal suffers more.
Moreover, if vachans are paramount, where do the vivaah saat vachans stand that Jodha made to Jalal? Jalal, being a Mughal with different wedding patterns, may not be aware of them, but Jodha does.
And promise keeping is not limited to a community. History has many examples of those there too who have broken promises and many others in diverse clans and religions and nationalities all over the world too who have upheld their word against all odds.
Anyway, neither Jodha not the CVs have cared as to what Jalal feels as paramount. Jodha is anyway going to be hailed and haloed by Jalal himself soon. Someone will do something and solve the matter for her, while she will only weep and deafen Kanhaa. Right from the start, her problems have been solved either by Jalal (FP, Ratanpur Qila,etc) or by Ruqaiya and Rahim and Jalal(MC) or by someone else. Except in the Ben track, Jodha has done nothing but gets praised for everything and her mistakes are not mentioned at all.
The real Jodha must have certainly been a lot more smarter and savvy. Both Akbar and Jo deserve better representation. Anyway, as long as RT continues to blast like yesterday we can take the serial with pinches, rather dollops of salt.
Edited by Sandhya.A - 11 years ago
lghosh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Vinita,

This is really a spirited defence of Jodha and I would applaud you for it. But there is a clear difference between this case and the other two you have cited. Let me try and explain why.

1) Jalal was (very irresponsibly, as I wrote in my post The demands of Rajadharma ) ready to give up his throne and abandon the awaam he was duty bound to protect to the horrors of civil war, probably ending in a regime of the worst sort under the likes of Adham Khan, just to keep his word to Jodha. I had then criticised Jalal as criminally foolish. When there is a clash between the public good and a private commitment of a ruler, the public good must always prevail. That is rajadharma.

But at least there it was to protect a specific right, that of Jodha to retain her faith and not be forced to convert.

2) When Jalal had given a shahi farman that he would give the bearer anything he wanted, and he told Jodha she could have asked for his head, I think he was joking, and/or teasing her. I do not at all think he meant it literally. Why, if that was so, no ruler could grant such boons to anyone! Even setting this aside, it was at least a written commitment.

Now here, there is no rationale for this vachan at all, once Jalal has seen the fake khwaja sera in Jodha's rooms. Sujamal, who is presumably not a dunce, should have realised at once what Jalal was bound to think as soon he saw them together, if he was not told that Sujamal was her brother. Why, if Bharmal has seen a strange man in his daughter's rooms, he would have executed both the daughter and the intruder. Remember his reaction to Jodha's moonlight boatride with Suryabhan, her fiance?

What was Sujamal's original reason, tenuous as it was, for the vachan Jodha had taken initially? That Jodha should not get into trouble by being seen to meet an enemy of the Mughal sultanate. Now, that has been renewed, her hand on his head, for exactly the same reason , unhe tum par shak ho jayega.

But once Jalal had seen both of them together in her rooms, all this went automatically out of the window. Anyone, Rajvanshi or not, would know what any husband would think of his wife if the situation was not clarified at once. So why does he not release her from the vachan at once? Why does she not ask him to do so, since the situation was bound to be fatal for him if she stayed silent?

I do not know how much Jodha understands of what agony her husband is going thru, for as I described her once, she is like a clear, burbling brook, shallow and uncomprehending of deep passions. At least her face yesterday did not indicate much grasp of what this betrayal (as he is bound to see it) by the wife he had come to love does to Jalal. If I had been in her place, it would have been what I was doing to this husband who loves me that would have mattered the most. Not, it seems, to her.But that did not surprise me.

Jodha was not hurting anyone but Jalal, and herself at one remove.

And as for the sacredness of one's word, it is not limited to any one group, though from the writings in this forum, one would hardly think so. Jalal is as true to his word as any Rajvanshi, and so would his father, or Hamida Banu,or Jahangir later have been.

But there are no absolutes in any situation, and the pros and cons have to be weighed. The greatest good of the greatest number has to prevail; it cannot be sacrificed at the altar of this kind of personal vanity.That is true whether it is Jalal being ready to abandon his throne (the import of which Jodha never grasped, for she described it later merely as his being ready to take on the mullahs!) or Jodha now, abandoning her husband to the anguish of feeling betrayed by the one he trusted above all.


Shyamala B.Cowsik



I will add another fact to Shyamala's fabulous response here.

Vachans of Rajput are words of honor to them and they die for it and there are several instances in history about this. This is fine but here when Jodha is staying mum not saying a word she is not putting her life on the guillotine here but the very person's life she wants to protect, her bhaisa Sujamal's! So there should be a marked difference in her reactions, if it was only her life I understand it would be her 'aan, baan and shaan' to give up her life for her vachan but here she will witness the most gravest death possible of Sujamal, whom she wants to save, as proclaimed by Jalal.

Vinita in both instances that you have cited about Jalal's, he was putting himself on the sacrificing board, his throne or his head but it was not someone else's honor or life he was putting on stake. That is the major difference. On one's life one has right but the moment it involves a life and death situation concerning other than oneself the situation or reaction changes! Yesterday's Jodhas' maunvrat not only showcased her foolishness by the CV's but also showed in critical situations this Jodha goes brainless for paltry reason.

I am annoyed beyond words for the CV's to portray Jalal and Jodha like this, Jalal all this while a love lorn poodle who has lost his spine and Jodha getting her halo brighter for making one mistake after another and crying to her Kanha and Moti as to why she is doing these whatever she was doing!

We as audience deserve a little bit of more intelligence from the CV's. As I have said earlier if I don't want to see a spunk less Jodha then neither do I want a spineless Jalal.

I have to say yesterday Rajat as Jalal was fantastic even when he was OTT.
aashyagh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Totally right Sandhya, Sujamal asked promise not to tell Jalal about their meetings, but not about his identity. Actually by keeping quiet sujamal's life is in more danger.
And I m not talking about any shaadi vachans or being a Rajvanshi u cannot go beyond yr vachan, as per Rajvanshi woman of 16th century, your family and values teaches you that, above all relation husband comes first, your loyalty, duty and love is for him first and then all other people matter. I m not talking about someone's personal views or opinions, just where husband stands in a wife's life during that period. (I M not discussing keeping current feminism, thoughts). So, I fail to understand, how can your husband's pain be kept aside. I don't see anything can justify a 16th century Begum's silence.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: lghosh

I will add another fact to Shyamala's fabulous response here.
Vachans of Rajput are words of honor to them and they die for it and there are several instances in history about this. This is fine but here when Jodha is staying mum not saying a word she is not putting her life on the guillotine here but the very person's life she wants to protect, her bhaisa Sujamal's! So there should be a marked difference in her reactions, if it was only her life I understand it would be her 'aan, baan and shaan' to give up her life for her vachan but here she will witness the most gravest death possible of Sujamal, whom she wants to save, as proclaimed by Jalal.

Vinita in both instances that you have cited about Jalal's, he was putting himself on the sacrificing board, his throne or his head but it was not someone else's honor or life he was putting on stake. That is the major difference. On one's life one has right but the moment it involves a life and death situation concerning other than oneself the situation or reaction changes! Yesterday's Jodhas' maunvrat not only showcased her foolishness by the CV's but also showed in critical situations this Jodha goes brainless for paltry reason.

Very well said.👏👏👏👏
You can only pain yourself for the sake of your vachan.
You have no right to pain others for the sake on your own vanity in vachan-keeping.
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Very well said.👏

You can only pain yourself for the sake of your vachan.
You have no right to pain others for the sake on your own vanity in vachan-keeping.



Well seems like Madam Jodha is not only sadistic, she is also masochistic!!!

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