Jodha and Salim

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myviewprem

@myviewprem

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 11 years ago

Today Jodha said once the baby is born she will give him to Jalal and leave to amer.

Now all of us are aware that Salim and his mother Mariam-uz-zamani had not so close a relation. If they were really close then when Salim rebelled against Akbar she would have mediated peace between them. Akbar tried his best to make Salim stop his rebellion and come back to him when he set up a parallel government in Allahabad by not taking strict action on him(like announcing him traitor or sending forces to catch him etc) and writing him letters and sending envoys to convince him to come back to agra to his family and forget his rebellion. Finally Salima and Ruqaiah brokered peace between father and son by going to Allahabad and getting him back to agra. And Hamida took him to Akbar and both resolved their differences.

So where was his mother Hira Bai all the time no where in the act. Nowhere. As a mother and wife she should have been the first person to broker peace between father-son. But she did not why? Did she not care for the empire or for Akbar and Jehangir's relationship or did she have no real bonding with Salim and Akbar that she would move mountains to resolve their mended father-son relationship. We also know Salim was close to Ruqaiah and Salima than his own mother as mentioned in jehangirnama.

Now connect that with how Jodha told in yesterday's serial that once baby is born she will hand over him to Akbar and leave. I know of a friend's mother who was forced to marry to a man and she hates her own children from him although after a few years she accepted her fate and openly told them too about it a few times in anger. Did the same happen to Hira Kunwari she was forced to marry Akbar against her wish, convert to islam and also bear his child. That was 16th century do you really akbar would have said "I will touch you when you say yes?" like in serial surely not. So did all this factors make Hira Kunwari(jodha) dislike salim and remove anger of being forced to marry akbar on the child. See Akbar is very powerful and no nonsense guy he is not like the Akbar of this serial who will take ghrina and nonsense talks from his wives, sister, mother etc. So obivously Hira(like jodha does in serial) cannot shout, ignore, misbehave with the real Akbar. So whom does she remove her anger on i can find only Salim who would have borne the brunt of her anger on being married agianst her wishes by her family to Akbar. Anger need not be shown only by physical punishment or shouting it can be shown by ignoring a child by making it feel unwanted etc.

Now neither Akbarnama nor Jehangirnama mention about Akbar and Mariam-uz-zamani aka Hira Kunwari in detail(Jehangirnama does mention Salima and Ruqaiah a bit more). Is that not surprising? Look at Humayun nama and Babur nama how they record many incidents of wives, sisters, mothers including details of marriages and issues faced by them etc. How detaily baburnama mentions his sister khanzada being given away as hostage to the uzbeg lord to save his life, his childhood with his elder sister, his first marriage breaking off, how he married late etc

Why is both Akbarnama and Jehangirnama silent on sisters, mothers and wives? Akbarnama is so silent on wives and sisters that its surprising. Atleast Jehangirnama takes some efforts to explain characters of his sisters and brothers and mention something about his 3 mothers Ruqaiah, Salima and Hira Kunwari. But yet it is vague references we do not get to know what sort of relationship really exists between mothers-son etc only incidents. Jehangir who loved some of his wives like Jodha, Sahib Jamal and Nur Jahan again is silent on their roles also except passing references.

One more point while thinking of it please remember this was 15th century not 21st century. Here women were treated like 3rd class citizens brought., sold and bargained liked cattle etc. They did not have freedom, will and wish or self respect. They were expected to be under father, brother, husband and finally son. If it was 21st century do you think to save his kingdom and sons a father Bharamal will give his daughter jodha's hand in marriage to a muslim barbarian ruler Jalal. Do not forget what Bhagwan das and Man Singh were talking shahenshah itne bhi rudayeen aur jallad nahi hai jaise log bolthe hain. So if they think like this before marriage about jalal which father/brother will push his daughter in marriage. Jodha was basically bargained like a cattle/animal to secure Bharamal's kingdom and freedom. It was Akbar the great's greatness that he treated her nicely and allowed her to retain her customs, worship etc. Even there he was forced to make her convert to islam to marry her on pressure from society.

Edited by myviewprem - 11 years ago

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Ritu99

@Ritu99

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

I beg to disagree.Had Salim and his mom Mariam uz Zamani aka Hira Kunwari aka Jodha bai not shared a close bonding,he would never have got monuments constructed in her name.He got a mosque built in her name in Lahore and her tomb very close to Akbar's in Sikandra.That he was pampered by Ruqaiyya Sultan just depicts Jodha's large heartedness.Also Jodha not intervening when he rebelled against Akbar could be because she sided with Akbar and considered that Salim was in the wrong.After all both Jodha and Akbar are potrayed as very just and fair.But then, we can only interpret history our own way, because the people we are discussing are no longer with us to tell what actually happened.But one undisputed fact towers above all the rest that Akbar was and will be of the greatest Emperors of the world who always thought about the welfare of his people first and foremost,

.Wish we had more leaders like him today.

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myviewprem

@myviewprem

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Ritu99
I beg to disagree.Had Salim and his mom Mariam uz Zamani aka Hira Kunwari aka Jodha bai not shared a close bonding,he would never have got monuments constructed in her name.He got a mosque built in her name in Lahore and her tomb very close to Akbar's in Sikandra.That he was pampered by Ruqaiyya Sultan just depicts Jodha's large heartedness.Also Jodha not intervening when he rebelled against Akbar could be because she sided with Akbar and considered that Salim was in the wrong.After all both Jodha and Akbar are potrayed as very just and fair.But then, we can only interpret history our own way, because the people we are discussing are no longer with us to tell what actually happened.But one undisputed fact towers above all the rest that Akbar was and will be of the greatest Emperors of the world who always thought about the welfare of his people first and foremost,
.Wish we had more leaders like him today.

I am talking of Salim in his younger days. If we assume Hira supported Akbar hence did not try to broker peace that in itself is wrong. Why? Because Akbar himself tried his best to broker peace again and again by sending Salim's friends, envoys, letters to his son in Allahabad. Why Hira never put such efforts to go and meet her son or put sense in him? When all his sisters, bothers and step mothers can go and visit him in Allahabad why did his own mother never try to broker peace. Its her duty as a mother and wife to bring family together.

Now we cannot go by Jehangir's hero worshiping lines of his mom in Jehangirnama. That an emperor will do anyways to show that he is a dutiful son. He even tried to deflect blame of his rebellion on misguided friends in his book. For 4 years friends cannot misguide you that too when envoys, siblings, father, step mothers, grand mother are all requesting you to come back. And who knows in later years as Salim matured and himself faced rebellion by his sons he realized value of parents and why they were strict with him and hence he became close to his mother? But as far as i have read and observed Jehangir definelty had issues with both his parents. Its not like he had general hatred or aloof from family. He was close to his grandmom, siblings, step mothers as he himself mentions. But with his parents he had an defiance and rebellion kind of relationship till almost the very end.

I am not talking of Akbar the leader and emperor. Yes Akbar was a wise leader and emperor.

Edited by myviewprem - 11 years ago

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loveanime

@loveanime

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

Akbar was the greatest Mughal and none could match him. Salim ascend to the the throne decelerated what akbar created, and then shah jahan and arurangazeb were final nails in the coffin, Mughal empire was no roman dynasty that lasted centuries. Mughals won't even be talked about now if it wasn't for akbar, the empire hit its peak during his reign but it needed someone like akbar to sustain it. Irony here is that in the show the craving jalal has for a son In real life was his undoing. Salim was a disappointment and if he could have he wouldn't have handed his empire to that useless son of his. It was kind of sad thinking jalal craves a son who will only break his heart but the show is fiction who knows if we get that far they are writing their own history.

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Crux88

@Crux88

Beginner

Posted: 11 years ago

Salim and his rebellion had no roots and were completely superficial. He was a rebel without a cause. One of the many reason for him turning out to be such a disappointment was the overindulgence in the name of love and care. As to why jodha didn't visit Salim? We don't exactly know. Was it because she didn't wish to visit him? Or because didn't want to meet her? We will never know, will we? Was she a step ahead and realised early that salim was not worthy of the huge responsibility? May be, may not be. One thing is given, she stood by Akbar and not with her child speaks highly about her well placed sense of judgement.

Edited by Crux88 - 11 years ago

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myviewprem

@myviewprem

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: loveanime
Akbar was the greatest Mughal and none could match him. Salim ascend to the the throne decelerated what akbar created, and then shah jahan and arurangazeb were final nails in the coffin, Mughal empire was no roman dynasty that lasted centuries. Mughals won't even be talked about now if it wasn't for akbar, the empire hit its peak during his reign but it needed someone like akbar to sustain it. Irony here is that in the show the craving jalal has for a son In real life was his undoing. Salim was a disappointment and if he could have he wouldn't have handed his empire to that useless son of his. It was kind of sad thinking jalal craves a son who will only break his heart but the show is fiction who knows if we get that far they are writing their own history.

Actually if you read historians Jehangir ruled very well from 1605-1615. He was called "Adil Padshah" meaning "Just ruler" because he ensured he gave correct justice irrespective of caste, religion, rich-poor etc.

Its once Nur Jahan started interfering in administration with her brother and father that things got out of hand in Mughal empire. By then Jehangir who was an wine and opium addict and also had asthama fell ill on and off and that made Nur Jahan a pertex to start ruling like the emperor only. She was obivously trying to promote her family interest her brother, father, daughter and neice interest. Shah Jahan also sided with her as he was married to Mumtaz Mahal her neice. So even if Jehangir wanted to rule differently he had no option as his entire family, relatives all were on one side. Jehangir was not so strong minded to stop their decisions and take action against them. He was already unwell and aged and went along with the flow.

Salim surely was a disappointment but so were the other princes Murad and Daniyal were also addicts. Khurram was cruel(you have no idea what all atrocities Shah Jahan did to win Mewar war). Jehangir had to send his messenger to stop the atrocities against women, children and peasants(commoners) when he found out what was happening. Aurangzeb- Shah Jahn were truly "Like father like son" cases.

But if you actually think about it Akbar himsel was very cruel in initial years of rule till he was 35 years what with killing 30,000 civilains in chittor fort, killing his cousins to secure throne for himself and his children etc. Jehangir was better he never washed his hands in any relatives blood and atleast allowed them to stay with him in all luxury not as destitues in Mecca or killed them. Also in fight between Salim and Akbar for throne he killed only Abul Fazl no one else. In Khusrau rebellion he killed 800 soldiers which was a big error and Sikh Guru too. But there was no civil war situation like Khurram and Aurangzeb did and blood bath of relatives for throne.

So if you ask me except for his weakness for wine, poium and women(again better than Akbar he only fought to marry his lovers irepective of their status) he was better person than most Mughal prince and emperors.

Where did salim go wrong as Akbar himself mentioned in one letter(Abul fazal's son-in-law book on royal letters) two things

1) one over love and care shown to him as child made him very complacant and love for luxury(you can lazy and demanding pampered child)

2) At age of 7 he was sent to war field till 22 years not allowed to return home. So influenced by outsiders a lot by friends and advicers. Its like a child who goes to hostel becomes close to schoolmates than with family.

3) Third salim could be easily led by others especially people he loved and trusted whether wives, friends etc

The best Mughal prince was Dara Sukoh his grandson a gem of a crown prince by those days who days who donated to temples, gurudwara and even married an orphan girl, saved many traitors lives by pleading with his father. Also when Shah jahan was angry with auragngzeb and dismissed him from governorship jahanara and he pleaded with shah jahan to make aurangzeb a governor.

Edited by myviewprem - 11 years ago

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crazy4pari

@crazy4pari

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

every indian women prefer husband over children...may be she fedup with her son's acts...may be she doesn't like over pampering of her son...but she supported her husband in thick and thin. this states her commitment we don't know the exact circumstances that occurred...we don't have any jodhanama to understand her views, as per evidences we have salim didn't respected his father and mother jodha is nothing but a self respect in the form of women...but the women who respects and loves her husband ,father ,brothers can't let go her son or neglect her son so easily,may be she had tried( we don't have any evidences)but lack of evidences does't implies lack of existence..

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vallu123

@vallu123

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

i dnt know what kind of relationship salim and jodha had ...but salim has her genes...may be salim loved ruqaiya and salima more may be not... but salim did have some strong values of jodha otherwise he could have killed his brothers and their son for the throne...but he did not... he did believe in family i guess...Salim belonged to an era where men didn't mind killing their own brothers for power...i read in your posts that he took care of all his brother's sons and his grandsons and gave them all necessary comforts...

shah jaan was super cruel...n his son aurangzeb super duper cruel...!!!

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deejagi

@deejagi

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

In those days, it was normal that kids used be taken care of by the elders. If Salim is closed to Ruqaiya, it doesn't mean he was not loved by his own mother. Since ruqaiya didn't had her own kid and Salim being the first son of Akbar, she would have taken the responsibility of teh child on her own . there are so many cases in histiry where the child being taken care by aunts or some relatives during the time their parents were in war field.

And about the statement that female were treated as 3 rd grade citizens during 16th century was too wrong. The Hoysala queens Shantala of 12th Century was more popular than her husbnd Vishnuvardhana as she was an alrounder. She was good at war field, an artist and a great minister when it comes to decission making.

Century doesn't matter, even now, i many countries woman can not go out in public with confidance without being guarded. Bharamal didn't do a crime which no one else did during his time. Then the political marraiges were there and in Jodha's case it was inter religion. As a king he had to think of the whole female population in his state and if he could safe guard all those girls just by sacrificing his own daughters happiness. what was the guaranty she would have been spared had he not accepted for the marriage. He was already been defeated and Jalal could have taken her as voctory tofa, had he thought but he gave respect to her womanhood and married her. So let us not talk bad about tha era.

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WinterAesthetics

@DanceUntilWeDie

Stunner

+ 4

Posted: 11 years ago

#10

Originally posted by: Ritu99
I beg to disagree.Had Salim and his mom Mariam uz Zamani aka Hira Kunwari aka Jodha bai not shared a close bonding,he would never have got monuments constructed in her name.He got a mosque built in her name in Lahore and her tomb very close to Akbar's in Sikandra.That he was pampered by Ruqaiyya Sultan just depicts Jodha's large heartedness.Also Jodha not intervening when he rebelled against Akbar could be because she sided with Akbar and considered that Salim was in the wrong.After all both Jodha and Akbar are potrayed as very just and fair.But then, we can only interpret history our own way, because the people we are discussing are no longer with us to tell what actually happened.But one undisputed fact towers above all the rest that Akbar was and will be of the greatest Emperors of the world who always thought about the welfare of his people first and foremost,
.Wish we had more leaders like him today.

Lovely post. ..jo n salim never had any bad relationship acc to.me ...its like in our normal families also we have aunts.n all kaki mami who r closer to us..

Even the part when salim was sent away for many years may have a huge effect on his personality. ..but one thing is for sure. ..JEHANGIR was a just ruler

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