Jodha Akbar 35: Shahi Shaadi :Opening Gambits - Page 6

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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#51

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Ameilia my dear,

Your post needs a detailed response, but my wrist is hurting, so I will do the best I can.

The first para - it is the kanya paksh syndrome of subservience by the bride's family to the groom's. that I have pointed out in my post.

Second, you have to see it from Bharmal the Raja's point of view. Jodha agreed to whatever sacrifice was called for from her to save Amer, and it was she who stops him from revealing the name of her husband to be. I agree that he should have persisted and broken the news to her later. But he does not, and now things are at the DDay-1. At this stage, he cannot afford any breakdown, which will inevitably lead to Jalal waging mukammal jung and destroying Amer. Seen against this, to him, Jodha, however much he loves her, is dispensable. And I would agree with the otherwise stupid man on this,

Jodha, after all those grand statements of being ready to do anything for Amer, should now have tried to get over the shock and also tried to understand what was at stake and acted accordingly. Why is she now welshing on her commitment and blaming all and sundry? In fact, the way she behaves at first, till her mother reads her the riot act, justifies the deception her family practices.

Plus, for a Rajput princess, Jodha seems to have very little understanding of the ground realities of political and military power. Or of the real strength of the Mughals. If she did, she would not be dreaming of getting a husband who could defeat Jalal Does she even wonder how this supposed veer could get her brothers freed by the Mughals? No, she does not,

In Rajput royal families like Jodha's the sons and daughters are expected to put their duty to their people first, and this is what Jodha pledges to do. Now it is delivery time, and she finds it tough. Bharmal has his faults, but in this one , he is in such a tight situation that he cannot indulge Jodha in her hesitations and her revulsion. But he still looks shamefaced. Some other kings would not have done even that.

I agree with you about both Mahaam Anga and Mansingh.

No, Jalal and Jodha would have separate suites. This was in fact the case in most Western families till the early 2oth century.

Shyamala Aunty

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Posted: 12 years ago
#52

Originally posted by: SonyaBlade


😛 I was watching the uploaded video and it said 43 minutes. I'm not that obsessed...😆😉😆


Thank you for the info mate 🤗

mysterieux thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#53
Allright so I am back to my original position😆...Thanks so much for the post...
its such a treat to watch Jodha and akbar...and their parallels...He has this demeanor that underlines his pride, his arrogance...and his might...but the same Jalal...knowing that his marriage to Jodha is simply the result to the King of Bharmal loosing to him never featured...he respected the tradition, the bond with her siblings - Maan Singh...and then without being told understood Mainavati ...its all these little things that show the real Jalal...the human side
btw can I say again...I like the playful Jalal... he understood all the subtle undercurrents...but accepted them with equanimity!
Her shock, her reluctance, her pride, her anger were all justified...she had not realized the depth of her sacrifice till she set her eyes on him...although at the end she accepts her fate but her determination to go down fighting is what the conditions were all about...she may have had to accept the defeat...but her condition were her last effort , a hope she may yet have of not having to marry him...but also - a mark of her rajput pride...that he may have won her but she was definately not going to cower to him.
now its the cat and mouse, lion and deer game...
Edited by mysterieux - 12 years ago
Morana thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#54

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Thank yoy so very much, my dear.

Aha, so it is Gargi, is it? No wonder you have so much of intelligent compassion, for if you remember, she was the wife of the Rishi Yagnavalkya, who used to debate with and defeat even great scholars in open discussions.

Shyamala Di


Thank you Shyamala di, it's always a pleasure when I find some one who knows the significance of the name I'm bestowed with by my unkle , my sister's name is Maitreyee , also given by my unkle, who is dearly known to IF ppl as LuvMishalRaheja or Mac. 😉

But as far as I know, Gargi remained a maiden all her life n devoted it in the exploration of Bramha n Vedic literature. Maitreyee was the one who was married to Yajnavalkya. Gargi took part in the vedic congress arrangedby King Janaka n got engaged in a debate over the swarup of Bramha.
What I find fascinating is that Gargi seemed to had a knack of crossing limits for women set afor them at that time. I always find it a great accomplishment for any woman to cross boundaries of any kind in any age.
She was also one of the navaratna's in the court of king Janaka.
As much as I'm proud of my name , I also feel it's a burden to carry for a girl as carefree n emotional as me, because it some times overwhelms me with a sense of responsibility to do justice to my name by upholding at least a fraction of the honor this name carries.
They say with great powers come great responsibilities.
But I'd also like to add, with great names also come great responsibilities.
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#55
Oops! What a goof up! But the main point I sought to make, about you, still stands!

Shyamala Di

Originally posted by: Bamonforever


Thank you Shyamala di, it's always a pleasure when I find some one who knows the significance of the name I'm bestowed with by my unkle , my sister's name is Maitreyee , also given by my unkle, who is dearly known to IF ppl as LuvMishalRaheja or Mac. 😉

But as far as I know, Gargi remained a maiden all her life n devoted it in the exploration of Bramha n Vedic literature. Maitreyee was the one who was married to Yajnavalkya. Gargi took part in the vedic congress arrangedby King Janaka n got engaged in a debate over the swarup of Bramha.
What I find fascinating is that Gargi seemed to had a knack of crossing limits for women set afor them at that time. I always find it a great accomplishment for any woman to cross boundaries of any kind in any age.
She was also one of the navaratna's in the court of king Janaka.
As much as I'm proud of my name , I also feel it's a burden to carry for a girl as carefree n emotional as me, because it some times overwhelms me with a sense of responsibility to do justice to my name by upholding at least a fraction of the honor this name carries.
They say with great powers come great responsibilities.
But I'd also like to add, with great names also come great responsibilities.

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#56
Mansi,

I am now at a loss to decide how much better it would have been if I had managed to comment on this marvellous analysis yesterday itself. I could not do it before the 8 pm telecast came on, and after that, it was all I could to finish my post for that one, with eyes watering with incipient conjunctivitis on top of my recalcitrant wrist. One starts feeling one's age at times like that!😉

As I told you in the PM, this is a remarkably fresh and convincing take on the whole, especially the crisp and coherent end summing up. If indeed it had turned out to be like that, how much, how very much better it would have been for the rest of the Jalal-Jodha story! Each would have already hinted at a far more complex, nuanced, open-minded and refreshing characterisation than one has come to expect in TV daily shows, and things could have only improved from here on. It would have been a treat for the mind.

Instead, it came down in the end to Jodha behaving like a fishwife and hurling that shaadi ka joda at the lamp, for no real provocation but Mahaam Anga's predictable obnoxious arrogance. Now, in real life, it would have knocked out the flame and got just a large oily stain on the Dacca muslin, but then the CVs prefer (literally) flaming rows😉! She could have made the same point with any number of alternate gestures, as have been suggested elsewhere by sun29 and by Sonyablade. But no, it had to be this OTT, cheap melodrama, totally unfitting for a princess.

Oh dear, it is enough to make one weep, the sad contrast between your layered, complex, probing Jodha and Jalal and the real ones onscreen. Especially Jodha. But then with CVs who can turn the feisty, intelligent, arrogant, yet vulnerable and complex Ruqaiya into the plastic ramp model who has succeeded her, and I am here not talking of looks alone, what can one expect? I suppose one should be grateful for the way they have been handling Jalal of late. A Jodha like yours as well might be too much to ask for!!

In any case, Mansi, I am grateful to you for sharing this very thoughtful and intelligent look ahead with us, and how does it matter if it did not come out this way finally? It made for a wonderful read - fresh, very well argued, and thus really convincing.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: skanda12

Shyamala:

What a super piece of analysis! When I saw the episode yesterday, I was thinking, there is so much happening on so many different fronts, and all of it seems important, so what does one start to talk about. Yet your post has done full justice to what we saw yesterday '

I want to indulge myself here on one point that strikes me strongly:
THERE IS MUCH MORE TO THESE TWO SHARTHS THAN THEIR FACE VALUE WOULD SUGGEST.

To explain what I mean, I need to set the arguments out '

There are three related issues here for me:

1. What will the sharth scene be like? Is the precap a true indication of what may come?

2. Why would Jodha lay the sharths to accept the marriage? What would her logic likely be based on?

3. Why would Jalal accept the marriage sharths despite Jodha's obvious recalcitrance? What would his logic be based on?

OK, so here are the arguments one by one '

What will the sharth scene be like? Is the precap a true indication of what may come?

I think the precap and promo are both misleading deliberately. I think the situation will be like this. Jodha will insist on meeting Jalal herself to iron out a few issues with him.

Why would she choose to talk to him directly and not send a message through her father? Well, if I were in Jodha's shoes, the credibility of her whole family is now in question for her. Not one of them "rats" had the elementary decency to tell her the truth (even if she demurred, what stopped them?) ' and right up to the point of yesterday, some further methods of subterfuge to hide the truth were still on the minds of the family (kangan bandhan, face in water etc etc.) Jodha must have decided in that one silent moment of resolve at the end of yesterday's episode that "apna haath jagannath", and that she alone could do anything to salvage her life hereafter and there is no use asking anybody else to do anything for her.

Now according to me (and this is pure speculation), she will ask to talk directly to Jalal. I don't know if he will come to see her alone (as the promo shows) or with an entourage (like the precap shows). It is likely that after listening to her two sharths, some one of the others in Jalal's entourage (in that room or outside of it ' and most probably Maham) may rise in antagonism against Jodha's sharths. This is when Jalal may himself rise angrily to shut the objections of Maham or whoever else! Jalal may say "I am marrying Jodha - the Muslims are not marrying the Hindus. And it is my wish to give her the freedom to pray as she chooses to the God she chooses. Agra is a home and it is not a jail. I have done an alliance with the Rajputs to bring them into the Greater Hindustan fold, and to gain their cooperation, not to crush them to become clones of us. Since I have done the allliance with a view to embrace the Rajputs into my fold for a larger cause of Hindustan, I have to respect whatever they come with and demonstrate this acceptance ' hence mujhe dono sharth manjoor hai!"

Maham's mouth (along with other mouths, including Jodha's and Bharmal's) may all fall open at the same precise moment - leading to a new ceremony to be named "mooh kholaayi"!

Okay, so now let's see why Jodha may lay the sharths to accept the marriage? What would her logic likely be based on?

The obvious and superficial reason could be that her family has pulled the emotional blackmail on her that her father and his word and his worth would all take a beating, as would Amer and its praja, if she refused this marriage of "alliance". Moreover they may say that Jalal may become extremely intransigent if his "allaince offer" were to be refused in a public show like this marriage. I think, however, that notwithstanding the blackmail points, the real value of these two sharths is entirely different.

These two sharths of Jodha are her own way of sizing up Jalal. She has always heard that he was "kroor" and ruthless. But what was he like personally? What were his values? How did he decide when he had to decide on tricky issues? Upon reflection in that room alone, it must have struck Jodha that she knew very little of Jalal except what she's "bought" about him from hearsay and some personal experience. I think in that moment of resolve to go ahead with the marriage after Mainavati talks to her about "maan-maryada" etc. Jodha decides that she has a serious knowledge gap where Jalal is concerned, and she knows only his public persona and nothing about the inner man that he is.

Remember how Jalal cleverly offered sherbet and mithai to Bharmal to size him up before the alliance talks began? I feel as if Jodha's two sharths are of the same category as "feelers". She is both stating her dearest wishes, but she is also sizing up Jalal by his responses. I think it is creditable that he will rise to her expectations or possibly even exceed them through his positive reply. She will be able to decide, I think, that despite his dreadful reputation he is a man she could do business with. After those sharths are accepted we may generally find Jodha subdued and going through the marriage rituals in some peace (except maybe for that clothes-burning high point when she gets needled by him beyond her ability to bear things).

Why would Jalal accept the marriage sharths despite Jodha's obvious recalcitrance? What would his logic be based on?

The two sharths are also Jalal's own opportunity to know for sure that Jodha has agreed to marry him at least for some reasons beyond just being loyal and sacrificial to her father's word. Jalal has seen clearly already that Jodha has not been told that she is marrying him. The girl has been cheated by her kith and kin. He even tells Maham it is not her fault that she ran away at the muh dikhayi, because it was clear that his face as the bridegroom was a total surprise to her.

On the face of it this scene could look as if Jalal is gloating over the satisfaction of the public jhatka that Jodha has got for taking pangas against him, and Jodha's two sharths may also look like more evidence of her "ghamandi" attitude, her temerity in laying conditions on the Shahenshah even when her family were the underdogs in the alliance. But my feeling is that these two sharths mean something else entirely to Jalal.

Upon reflection, Jalal must see these two sharths as a very positive indication that Jodha has made an attempt to rise above her family's "balidaan" of her to try and find her own small platform for reconciliation with this marriage. Jalal would also know that if he said "No" to the sharths, Jodha would have no recourse but to relapse into that "sacrificial goat" for the rest of her life with him. On the other hand, if he said "Yes" to her sharths, he at least would know that she had stepped outside out her family's blackmail into re-asserting her own stakes in this marriage. Her two sharths would surely tell him that Jodha is ready to rise above her family to enter this marriage "on her terms" whatever those terms may be! She could have asked for "xyz" but the fact that she asked for something of her own rather than something for her family's sake must surely signal to Jalal that she is ready to take tentative personal control on the flow of events?

To sum up, I see these two sharths as the attempt of two individuals to say to each other '

Jodha: "If you agree to my terms, I think I could at least do business with you even if I otherwise hate you. You may have one reasonable side of you I could begin to work with '"

Jalal: "The fact that you've laid these two sharths on me tells me you are now ready to do this for yourself and not just for your family. I am happy you are doing this for you not for someone else '"

I don't know how many of you all will agree with my analysis above, but I think it would be shallow to see these sharths as a "communal harmony" thing or even a "religious autonomy" thing. I think its about two people signalling to each other that that they are beginning to see some small space of commonality between them - to begin a marriage of strange antecedents.

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#57
My dear Kashi,

If I was not of advanced years, and with my head fixed firmly on my shoulders, your extravagant praise would put me in imminent danger of getting a head so swollen and full of hot air that it would float clean off, and take the rest of me with it!😉

No, no, my dear, please do not compare me with the immortal Jane Austen! Her shade might rise up and haunt both of us for such presumption! Jokes apart, I am very touched and deeply flattered. Thank you!

But yes, this is unquestionably the best IF forum I have been in. I am delighted to be part of it,and to have acquired so many bright and lively young friends.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: ginco

Dearest Shyamala Aunty jee,

👏


and iam essentially standing while clapping in awe of you... you are my JANE AUSTEN... and a queen mother of JA Forum on IF...

I think this JA forum is incomplete without your posts ... they are simple yet illustrative to capture every essence of this brilliant historical ... and your knowledge helps us understand the complexity of each and every character and situation.

I truly believe that you have so sound hold and grip over this subject that you should either be one of the Cv's or possibly the director of this show...

EK should bow to you for putting up all your valuable time in summing up one of the most essayed posts on her show...

Thank you from all of us ...

There were so many shades to jalal and jodha displayed yesterday that the title of a game of chess really suited the saga...after reading some you here ... and the elaborate discussions done here iam so thrilled to watch the show .

Aunty jee your posts start off the most debatable discussions about the serial ... and inspire us to give our opinions about the same... Today i have read almost all the versions of jalal's aka Rajat's mindset and nothing is left for me to comment upon...am waiting like all of you to see how the Cv' ochesterate the shart scene.

AND LIKE YESTERDAY WAS ONE OF THE BEST EPISODES EVERE THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST POSTS AS WELL...

three cheers for shyamala aunty ... 👏👏👏

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#58
My dear,

Thank you so much; you are really good for my morale!

What I meant was that since Mansingh talks of defending his buasa and his family, Jalal might have been reminded of Jodha's passionate commitment to defending her Amer.Not something she might have said about the code of honour in war.

One can hardly be bothered about 3-4 years too much for Mansingh, my dear, when Jodha, who was 22 days older than Akbar at the time of their marriage, is now stated in passing to be celebrating her 17th birthday, while Jalal looks to be 21 or 22. These people have an elastic time line,perhaps their characters travel faster than light and end up getting steadily younger!😉

You are correct about Akbar well post marriage to Jodha in 1562 (when they were both 20)/ In 1568, after a very hard siege of Chittor, when it fell, Akbar had all the defenders killed as an example to the rest who were still holding out. In the same year, Ranthambore took the hint and surrendered soon.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: doyelpakhi

Shyamala Aunty! Take a bow! ⭐️

As usual, your writing is superb! 👏👏👏

I agree with you 99% - except that Mansingh part. 😉 I have not seen the earlier episodes of Jodha Akbar, so don't know what Jodha has said about the rules of war that was echoed by Mansingh.

I felt Mansingh reminded Jalal of his young age - the same courage, valor, mental strength, and code of conduct which can be expected from a great warrior.

As you have perfectly said " It was plain and simple admiration tinged with indulgence, towards one so very young and yet so fearless"

Also felt for Jodha today. 😭 Her obsession for Jalal ka sarr might be OTT, but she had her reason to dislike the Mughal Emperor and yet, she has to get married to that man.


P.S.: Btw, don't you think Mansingh should be shown as a 12-13 year old kid because he was 8 years younger than Akbar and Akbar married Jodha at around age of 20.😕 But this guy looks around 15-16 years.
I have started reading books on Akbar and phew ! - I have ultimately realized that if I have to watch this serial I have to forget about history and enjoy the performance and handsome figure of Rajat Tokas 😳 😆 As you have mentioned, EK will show Jodha as some kind of Guardian Angel who will turn the bad boy into good guy. 🥱 But history has made it clear that Akbar had done his own share of "mischief" even after getting married to the Amer Princess. So this whole premise - Jodha banayega Akbar ko insaan - happened only in EK's dreamland.

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#59
Thank you, Diksha, both for your kind words, and for that very interesting anecdote about Akbar and Mansingh. I am sure that given a choice, Akbar would have exchanged Salim for Mansingh!

Shyamala Aunty


Originally posted by: sweet_diksha

again very good analysis from u , aunty. Jalal - Maansingh scene was good one. from what i have read, Jalal takes him to Agra. He later fondly calls Maan as his 'Ferzand' (sorry if any mistake. Ferzand means son). There are even pics of Jalal-Maansing wrestling .

here is the link to it. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Singh_I

other scenes Sharifuddin was funny. And Jodha , when it comes to her hatred for Jalal , looks a bit immature. hope this changes with tonight's episode.


sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#60
My dear Apurva,

Thank you for all your warm words.

However, I begin to suspect you of magical powers, for my hopes of having very little to analyse in this week are fading fast! If this goes on for another 3 days, I will become an old crock, that is for sure.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: ApurvaLovesARVI

Who is the most Happy here? Me!!!

Yeah!
I am Optimist you know, so a get a slightest bit of hint everytime something Happen!
When you sai "I hope there will be 90%visuals and 10% to Analyse"
A Part of me was screaming it isn't going to Happen.
And that was it!
It had very beautiful and Amazing Visuals
From decorated mandap to Jodha's Dress[She was looking very beautiful] Everything was vissualy perfect.
And there was a big lot to Analyse too...😉
I would like to say the Episode was Amaingly Amazing, It was treat to watch
I would like to watch it 4-4 times on Net, but unfortunately 100% is used up so i couldn't watch video till10 to ensure the Net doesn't work the Tortoise slow.
Like you sai there was every emotion regular Daily-Soaps witness one by one.
And that Halwai part! I got a stomach-ache laughing so hard on that...
How much Jalal loves that halwai's Tond[Stomach]
And after when he say "Dekha Shehen Shah ne hame maaf kar diya" was too hilarious.
And the Tilak ceremony had a deep symbolism, That Mainavat is not to worried now, After hearing what Dadisa said and Jalal readily accepting to put Tika on forehead. When Jalal placed his forehead forward, she had a little small smile and after the Aarti she was visibally clam "Afterall Jalal is not what I have thought"
Then Jalal was inspecting that water pot thing.Going round and round to it.Confirming that his face will be visible or not?
When Jodha was brought, He was mesmorized for a second,even she was in veil.
Abd when...Jodha saw his reflection, His mind Quickly analysed"Jalal-Uddin Mohammad!!"
And Jalal knew that too..[How well he knows Jodha😉]
To remove "It was just vehem, Reflection wasn't clear in Water" thoughts, he remarked "Khuda be badi fursat me banaya hai"

The second one brings Jalal to his feet in a sudden reaction - but of what? Is it anger, or is he merely taken aback? His face is indecipherable as he turns it over in his mind, and the assemblages on both sides of the dividing curtain (why make it like some sort of town assembly from both sides? It was done better in the film, where the two met alone in a tent) hold their collective breath.

We, of course, let ours out in the normal course, for we know that Jalal is going to agree. But the question is whether he will agree right there, or later. My bet is that he will do it right there, and Mahaam Anga will be making a worse face than ever before at this unheard of indulgence towards a kafir so obstinate as not to see the light. Would that the wind would change right at that moment, and as the fairy tales have it, she is stuck with that grimace as her personal wallpaper in perpetuity!

Your words are just what I was thinking...
That why whole of there sides are sitting?
He will agree there like in the movie or not?
And then I supported the "Agree there" Idea, like you...
Poor Maham Anga...
She must be thinking"Yeh Kaunsa Jalal hai?"
First the Tilak thing,
Then
Bura na man na of Jodha ka chala jaana!
And the No Dharm-Parivartan and Krishana in Agra??
I knew Jalal will not take Jodha's running as Tauhin, because this is what he had wanted and ordered the Mooh-Dhikhayi rasam to happen!
And I liked the way Raja Bhaarmal said" Jodha ka Mooh-Dikhayi se chale jaane ka Jalal ne bura nahi mana..."
It was, somehow indicating Jalal is not that Kroor like he is described.
And the Gifts that Jalal gave, really a dazzling list, itna saman!
Jalal told Jodha should accept the Joda is also a Power play like the Mooh-Dikhayi-will-haapen thing.
I will like to say, he is a real Shehen Shah at the age of 22 only...
Again A Fabulous Analysis Aunty...
I was really expecting this!
The Episode was really Awesom, This one needed Analysis
if all the Episodes are going to be like this or even better than this, I pray for 2 hour episode.!
I hope we will get Analysis of this whole "Shahi-Shaadi Saptah"😉
p.s. I was really pleased with the Episode! It was Aamazinggg!! [Haven't I told this before, somwhere?😆]

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