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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#31

No, the Dwarka throne scene is bizarre - from day 1, Balarama was the ruler, and Krishna the co-ruler of Dwarka. Normally, in those days, if someone was a king, his wife sat next to him on the throne as queen. Here, Krishna sits next to Balarama, instead of Revathy 😕

In the original, Ugrasena was the king right until the end. In this serial, Balarama is the king, and Krishna is some sort of godfather of the entire kingdom. Don't ask! 🤔

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#32

Thanks. Actually, I watched an old film where Krishna (played by Sachin) is actually crowned as King of Dwarka. So I thought they might have shown it here too.

While reading Mahabharata, I realized recently that if Krishna had indeed been the King of Dwarka, he could have perhaps never supported Pandavas. As a king, one cannot give away the official army of his state to the side which he opposes. It is due to this reason Shalya had to dedicate his entire army along with his crown princes (sons) to Kaurava camp.

It must be noted that in the war, the State of Dwarka along with its royal army was officially aligned with Kauravas and hence the Emperor and the Crown Prince of Dwarka had no right to support Pandavas. If he did that he would have been called a traitor to his own state and people. Either he could have personally participated in the war or he could have sent his banner with his general to represent him. Balram did the latter. So its prudent to assume that Krishna was neither the king nor the crown prince of Dwarka. He was a secondary prince and adviser of the kingdom and hence was relatively free to choose his sides.

Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 14 years ago

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#33

^^ Did Krishna give the royal army to Duryodhana? I thought he just gave the Narayan Sena, which was one specific division but not the entire army of Dwaraka. Krishna did not exactly give Duryodhana Dwaraka's alliance...if he was not the ruler, how could he? It would be up to Ugrasena to pledge alliance to whichever side. The Narayan Sena was Krishna's personal army, so he was able to give it without anyone's permission, but Dwaraka's main army was not given away because Ugrasena (or whoever was the King, I still have no idea :P) was neutral.

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#34

Normally kingdoms had two types of armies - Imperial and Auxiliary. Imperial armies are composed of nobles and knights while Auxiliaries are made up of slaves, peasants and mercenaries. I guess Narayani sena was the imperial guard of Dwarka and Dwarka was aligned to Kauravas. Ugrasena or Balrama might have been neutral due to personal reasons, but the Narayani Sena was representing them and holding the banner of the Emperor of Dwarka.

When Duryodhan went to Krishna, it was actually Hastinapur seeking alliance with Dwarka. Krishna was almost the de-facto ruler of Dwarka and had an important role in decision making, despite not holding any office. So he could certainly assure Duryodhan with the support of the Narayani Sena. But the official and formal seal to that statement of alliance could be issued only by the King (Ugrasena or Balram) and not Krishna.

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Nandini

@NandiniRaizadaa

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 14 years ago

#35

Originally posted by: _Vrish_
No, the Dwarka throne scene is bizarre - from day 1, Balarama was the ruler, and Krishna the co-ruler of Dwarka. Normally, in those days, if someone was a king, his wife sat next to him on the throne as queen. Here, Krishna sits next to Balarama, instead of Revathy 😕

In the original, Ugrasena was the king right until the end. In this serial, Balarama is the king, and Krishna is some sort of godfather of the entire kingdom. Don't ask! 🤔

No no Balram ji was not the King of Dwaraka, if they are showing it that way then it is wrong

Ugrasen was the rular and Sre Krishna was the De Facto rular of Dwarka

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Nandini

@NandiniRaizadaa

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 14 years ago

#36

I was watching episode 30 in which Sre Krishna tells Satrajit to give him the Mani.

Who is this lady who is saying such bad things to Sre Krishna?

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#37

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan
Normally kingdoms had two types of armies - Imperial and Auxiliary. Imperial armies are composed of nobles and knights while Auxiliaries are made up of slaves, peasants and mercenaries. I guess Narayani sena was the imperial guard of Dwarka and Dwarka was aligned to Kauravas. Ugrasena or Balrama might have been neutral due to personal reasons, but the Narayani Sena was representing them and holding the banner of the Emperor of Dwarka.

When Duryodhan went to Krishna, it was actually Hastinapur seeking alliance with Dwarka. Krishna was almost the de-facto ruler of Dwarka and had an important role in decision making, despite not holding any office. So he could certainly assure Duryodhan with the support of the Narayani Sena. But the official and formal seal to that statement of alliance could be issued only by the King (Ugrasena or Balram) and not Krishna.

Maybe the Narayani Sena bore the seal of Dwaraka for the Kauravas, but I highly doubt the rest of the army helped them also. Dwaraka was actually aligned to the Pandavas because when Yudhisthira performed the Rajasuya Yagna, all the Yadava chiefs and whoever was ruling Dwaraka (I'm guessing Ugrasena) assured him of their alliance. So the Pandavas actually had a right to demand their help during the war, but they did not because they had Krishna and he was the embodiment of victory more than any human warrior. Krishna gave Duryodhan the Narayani Sena (which was his personal army) as a fellow cousin wishing to help out two of his other cousins, but he did not give him Dwaraka's alliance because that was already the Pandavas' and it would be immoral to break the promise.

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#38

Originally posted by: NandiniPS
I was watching episode 30 in which Sre Krishna tells Satrajit to give him the Mani.

Who is this lady who is saying such bad things to Sre Krishna?

I think she's a fictional character, but I'm not sure (maybe Ramaiya judging from the written updates?)...I haven't watched the past few episodes.

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#39

@Janaki - The rest of the army helped or not doesn't count here. As I said, its the Imperial army which bears the standard of the King and it is the actual representative of the Kingdom's alliance in a war.

Secondly, many erstwhile allies of Pandavas took part from the Kaurava camp. Because in Kurukshetra war Pandavas were a rebel force (in modern time we call it 'Government in Exile') and not a legitimate Kingdom. They didn't even have an official army or a standard of their own. That's why they were fighting the war in the first place. Their army and their standards were borrowed from Upalavya and Panchal due to immediate marital ties. The previous ties and alliances of Yadavas made with the Kingdom of Indraprastha was severed the moment Pandavas lost Indraprastha to the Hastinapur Crown. Alliances are made between kingdoms and not rulers, unless its a matrimonial alliance.

So the question arises that if Pandavas were rebels and Dwarka was an official Kaurava ally, then how could Arjun ask Krishna and Yadavas for help? The answer is that Yadava's daughter Subhadra was married to Arjun. We can safely say that Subhadra was Krishna's ticket to Kurukshetra. This is the very reason why Krishna so enthusiastically got Subhadra eloped with Arjun as that established a legitimate tie between Yadavas and Pandavas (Note : Kunti was legally cut off from Yadava clan as Kuntibhoja adopted her).

If Subhadra had not been married to Arjun, the Pandavas would have never hoped to approach the Yadavas for help and Krishna too would have never had any reasonable excuse to consider Pandava's plea alongside Duryodhan as (1) Duryodhan's daughter too was married to Sambh, (2) Hastinapur had good rapport with Yadavas (3) and most importantly Duryodhan was representing legitimate ruler.

But the question here is about Krishna being titular ruler or crown bearer of Dwarka. If he had indeed been the crown bearer or carried titles like 'Dwarkadhish' then the imperial guard must have fought along with Krishna as I had said that the Imperial armies are always latched to the crown. Neither the king can abandon his guard, nor can the guard abandon the king. Did any such Royal Yadava army fight from Pandava side?

Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 14 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#40

Rehan

Dwaraka was a neutral state in this war - and participated on neither side. Had Dwaraka been an ally of Hastinapur, as you suggest, Satyaki & Chekitan couldn't have fought on the Pandava side. It's noteworthy that none of Krishna's sons fought on either side in this war: had Dwaraka been an ally of Hastinapur, Pradhyumna, Samba, Charudeshna, et al would all have had to fight on the Kaurava side. Neither Arjun nor Duryodhan approached Ugrasena - they approached Krishna & Balarama. Balarama refused to participate, while Kritavarma, who Duryodhan approached, joined him w/ a complete akshauni.

Here is what Krishna originally told them:

Thereat Krishna replied, 'That you have come first, O king, I do not in the least doubt. But, O king, the son of Kunti, Dhananjaya, has been first beheld by me. On account of your first arrival, and on account of my having beheld Arjuna first, I shall, no doubt, lend my assistance, O Suyodhana, to both. But it is said that those who are junior in years should have the first choice. Therefore, Dhananjaya, the son of Kunti, is entitled to first choice. There is a large body of cowherds numbering ten crores, rivalling me in strength and known as the Narayanas, all of whom are able to fight in the thick of battle. These soldiers, irresistible in battle, shall be sent to one of you and I alone, resolved not to fight on the field, and laying down my arms, will go to the other. You may, O son of Kunti, first select whichever of these two commends itself to you. For, according to law, you have the right to the first choice.'
"Vaisampayana continued, 'Thus addressed by Krishna, Dhananjaya the son of Kunti selected Kesava who was not to fight on the battle-field, even Narayana himself, the slayer of foes, increate, born among men at his own will,--the foremost of all Kshatriyas and above all the gods and the Danavas. And Duryodhana selected for himself that entire army (composed of the Narayanas). And, O descendant of Bharata, having obtained those troops numbering thousands upon thousands, he was exceedingly delighted, although he knew that Krishna was not on his side. And having secured that army possessed of terrible prowess, Duryodhana went to the son of Rohini of great strength, and explained to him, the object of his visit. The descendant of Sura in reply addressed the following words to Dhritarashtra's son, 'Thou shouldst remember, O tiger among men, all that I said at the marriage ceremony celebrated by Vitrata. O thou delighter of the race of Kuru, for thy sake I then contradicted Krishna and spoke against his opinions. And again and again I alluded to the equality of our relationship to both the parties. But Krishna did not adopt the views I then expressed; nor can I separate myself from Krishna for even a single moment. And seeing that I cannot act against Krishna even this is resolution formed by me, viz., that I will fight neither for Kunti's sons nor for you. And, O bull of the Bharatas, born as thou art in Bharata's race that is honoured by all the kings, go and fight in accordance with the rules of propriety.'
"Vaisampayana continued, 'Thus addressed, Duryodhana embraced that hero wielding a plough for his weapon of battle, and although knowing that Krishna had been taken away from his side, he yet regarded Arjuna as already vanquished. And the royal son of Dhritarashtra then went to Kritavarman. And Kritavarman gave him a body of troops numbering an Akshauhini. And surrounded by that military host, terrible to behold, the Kaurava marched forth delighting his friends. And after Duryodhana had departed, Krishna, the Creator of the world, clad in yellow attire, addressed Kiritin, saying, 'For what reason is it that you have selected me who will not fight at all?'

Both Duryodhan & Arjun approached Krishna as a marital relative - Arjun courtesy Subhadra, and Duryodhan courtesy Lakshmana/Samba. B/w them, Krishna would have been more bound to support Arjun than Duryodhan, since Krishna was the relative of the husband in case of Duryodhan, but the wife in case of Arjun. So he did the deal where he would be on one side, and his personal army on the other. Note that Satyaki, Chekitan & Kritavarma's participation was not part of this deal, and purely their own personal choices.

Another thing - Krishna never vowed to be neutral - he just stated that he didn't plan to fight in the war. But had he ever taken up arms, like he almost did in case of Bheeshma on day 4, it wouldn't have been the breaking of any vow, since he never made one.

It's also inaccurate to state that Dwaraka was an ally of Hastinapur. Dwaraka was an ally of the Pandavas in Indraprastha, as per the Rajasuya yagna, and when Karna did his conquests during Duryodhan's reign to reverse some of the Pandava conquests, Dwaraka remained untouched. The loss of Indraprastha didn't make the Kauravas the ally of the Yadavas: the Pandavas remained allied to the Yadavas. In fact, Subhadra was the basis on which Arjun could have claimed all of Dwarka support if he so wanted, not just Krishna's, but he just approached Krishna and accepted whatever he got. Even though Indraprastha had been lost to the kauravas, Dwaraka remained an vassal of the Pandavas due to Kunti being the sister of Vasudev, and Subhadra of Krishna, and therefore they were duty-bound to support them, had the request been made.

Lakshmana's marriage to Samba would have made it incumbent on the Kauravas to support the Yadavas had the requirement been there, but not vice versa. The way it worked, if there was a matrimonial alliance, the wife's family was expected to support the husband's, but that requirement was not mutual, even though it was more often than not carried out. Had that not been the case, Krishna would never have allowed Samba to marry Lakshmana w/ the same zeal that he worked to prevent Duryodhan from marrying Subhadra. (It's almost on the same grounds that in one of the versions, Balarama's daughter Vatsala was prevented from marrying Duryodhan's son Lakshman.)

One thing - given that in the end, Krishna wanted his race destroyed due to their arrogance, I consider it surprising that he let it happen in a fratricide, rather than in a war. Had he declared Dwarka as joining the Pandavas, he'd probably have achieved the same thing, maybe w/ less damage to the Pandava side. B/w Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwatthama, Karna, Bhagadatta, Bhurishrava and Jayadrath and the divine weapons they had, the Kauravas would have been capable of wiping out most of the Yadavas, if not all, and Krishna would have had his way.

Edited by _Vrish_ - 14 years ago

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