What if Krishna became the charioteer of Rama? Note Pg4 - Page 2

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Debipriya thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#11
@Rehan, One of the most important point made in Geeta is about- 'Respect/ Shraddha'. If we have 'Respect' for the Lord, we would definitely Respect the Creation as well as the various 'WAYS' which lead us towards the Lord. 'Worshipping' is such a 'Way', which leads us there. I would say that any 'Sincere Offering' towards the Lord, can be called a Ritual. And that is definitely better than mechanically following the rituals without realising their 'essence'.


But, in Geeta Shri Krishna also tells that many many many people are there, who are not 'aware' about the subtlety of Dharma, so they will be completely lost without the guidelines of religious Rituals. These rituals make them stick to the 'Dharma Path', th' they are not aware of it sometimes. So these Rituals help the common man to 'connect' with the Lord.


Another point I want to make is Geeta also tells us about Devotion, without which a person can never be able to 'Realise' the Lord! If we are Devoted, then any action which focuses on the Lord, will be Loved by us. (- Just adding a bit with the first point).



'Karma' is undoubtedly the most important aspect of our life, without which, life is not possible, but without 'Respects/ Devotion/ Humility'- 'Karma' is only an expression of the 'Ego' of the person performing it. It is only when we Realise that we are only an agent and it is the Lord who is doing the 'karma' thr' us, then we bow down to Him and feel Happy in every single action taken towards the Lord, be it Puja of any murti ('Sakaar Bhakti') or doing something about the Welfare of the common people/ Nature ('Nirakaar Bhakti'). Without these 'realisations' 'Karma' is not complete, which means, that 'Karma' is not performed in the 'True Sense', the way Lord wants us to perform Karma.
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#12
Exactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us. So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him.

There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.

So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.
Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 14 years ago
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#13
Debipriya thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan



The Rajsuya Yagya was a political card to establish Yudhishtir's reign, liberate Shishupal, stir Duryodhan's envy and sow the seeds for Kurukshetra war. It had got nothing to do with religious practices. Krishna, the Supreme Benefactor, Himself was present with Yudhishtir with His blessings. So why do you think that He would ask Yudhishtir to offer prayers to the Demi Gods?


It was a political card- yes, but the element of Dharma was an inseparable part of it. We can never forget that in spite of Himself being with the Pandavas, (as you have mentioned), Krishna wanted each of their actions to be in the 'righteous' (rather 'exemplary') path. So a 'Dharmik Anushthaan' was necessary, to express their Gratefulness to the Lord and to Sacrifice what they already have to get something more (essence of 'yagna') .

In the Govardhan Vandana, Krishna stopped the Gokul Vasis from the traditional worshiping of Indra and asked them to worship the Govardhan as it was the source of their income. It gave them food, shelter and protected them from natural calamities and gave everything unconditionally. Besides he wished to teach the Demi Gods a lesson. So I think in this occasion he did oppose the rituals.

But the main point is that He encouraged them to 'worship' Govardhan Parvat, instead of Indra. The element 'worship' is common in both case. Krishna never says that worshiping is wrong. What He did was 'broadening the Visions' of the Gokulvaasis, so that they can 'perceive' the Lord in Nature (i.e.- around them), thus they will be able to Appreciate and Value the all gifts of Nature and will be Grateful for that.

The part of 'Indra mann Bhang' was another aspect of this story. It was done for the sake of Indra. It is relevant from the POV of Indra. In Govardhan Pravat incident, Krishna never opposed the idea of Worshipping but he opposed the idea of 'blessings in exchange of worshipping' (WRT- Indra). He made Indra aware of his responsibilities, with/ without receiving pujas from the common people.



In Bhagwat Gita, Krishna clearly says that man gets deviated from the path of Dharma by blindly following social customs and traditions. Blind faith it self is the greatest Adharma. He has always asked us to use logic and intellect to guide our actions.


Well, as much I have understood Geeta, I want to say that- 'True Knowledge' / 'Vivek' always shows us the right way, which is the way of the 'Dharma'. And it can never oppose 'worshipping', be it 'outside' ( that is- 'puja paath') or 'within the individual' where he remains connected with the Lord in each moment of his life.


And why do we even need to go to temple. Krishna is in every matter, every particle. Krishna is in us. So why do we need to exclusively worship a stone idol with all sorts of rituals to please Him? Isn't it better to worship ourselves through righteous actions rather than vague worldly rituals which are different and even contradictory for every religion and every community?

...Nishkaam Karma is the only way to Nirvana. And that makes more sense to me than those myriad rituals and traditions practiced all over the world.


Here again we have that 'Sakaar-Nirakaar' philosophies. Some persons 'actually perceive' the Lord in those idols, and some do not see Him there. It depends on the 'state of realisation' that person is in at that moment. And both the visions are right in ref to their POVs. Who are we to conclude that those rituals are vague? Have we gone thr' the same 'Feelings/ Realisations' those persons go thr' while doing the Puja? Who says that this viewpoint is correct and that one is not? Only because we do not feel the same way should never be the reason for us to reject any idea/ concept. Those rituals make sense to some people (sincere devotees) and they find Bliss/ Happiness thr' them, so why prevent them from doing so?

For reference, here are some videos from the Geeta episodes of 'Shri Krishna' about these concepts:




Debipriya thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#15
pakhara thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#16

Hi guys. Well, I've just caught up to reading all of your posts and have to comment myself.

Devotion is indisputably higher than karma. The fruits of Karma are not eternal at all. Yes, if one earns enough punya, or good deeds, then he can go to the material heaven, which is the court of Indra. As soon as your good deeds run out, you have to be reincarnated back here on earth. What is the point of pursuing karma then? Karma means nothing else than ones actions. Devotion, faith, love, and respect are embodied in bhakti, not karma. Moksh is to be united with God. Bhakti is the want of that union. And so, if we do not want Moksh, why would we get it? Hence, bhakti, not Karma, leads to eternal salvation.

If you find Krishna in your heart, then you are a bhakt. And as Debi di said, there is something called self-realization, when we realize that we are separate from our karma, our bodies, and mind, but not from Krishna. We are jivatmas, and we are of the paramatma which is Krishna. Krishna is the full manifestation of the lord, and all of us are always attracted to him because of that. And that is true for those who are not even self realized. People visit temples and worship idols to perform bhakti outwardly since they have not completely recognized the Krishna within them. You are right, he is within every molecule and atom of the universe, but we need to perceive him with our senses before we realize him with our mind and heart. And there is much to learn through bhakti. You can learn more about Krishna that way. How can it be blind?

And if bhakti was not important, then Krishna would have never stayed in Gokul. He would have never performed his divine pastimes with the Braj Gopikas, the Raas Leela would never had occurred. And all of the great saints have always advocated for bhakti over karma. We must assume that they are realized souls since we are not and respect what they say. It must be much more true than our own made up philosophies.

anku- thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#17
Can someone shorten what this article is saying? It looks quite offending but I want to know what it says before I can give my thoughts on it...
pakhara thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#18

Originally posted by: x.Anku.x

Can someone shorten what this article is saying? It looks quite offending but I want to know what it says before I can give my thoughts on it...



It is basically a parody on SHri Krishna and Shri Raam. In this story, Shri Raam is leaving for Vanvaas and he tells his charioteer to drive, but then the charioteer turns around it it is Shri Krishna. Shri Krishna and Shri Raam then have a debate on whether going to the forest is right or not. Shri Raam sounds very much like a push over and Shri Krishna ruthlessly insults everyone, saying that nothing should stop Raam from taking over and ruling Ayodhya. Yes, it is quite offensive as both characters are made fun of and taken to the extremes.
anku- thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#19
Thanxxx Aishu. I did rather not read then. It boils my blood!
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#20
@Debipriya Di.

1. Worshiping - Who told you that I am against worshiping? Its just that my idea of worshiping Krishna is different from others. Others worship Him with flowers, kumkum, garland and incantations while I worship Him through my own Karma. Because the former ways only attach us further to the materialistic world while the later leads us to enlightenment. Did Krishna ever asked us to worship him or chant his names? Here lies the problem. Lord Buddha was Himself against going to temples or worshiping an idol, but see the irony - His own 'devotees' have erected numerous temples containing His idols and worship Him with all sort of rituals. So what kind of devotees are they and what shall we gain from this superficial 'Bhakti' which undermines those basic principles which these people preached? We forget that God never asked us to do all this - He never asked us to pray to Him or worship Him with these rituals. He asked only a simple thing - to do our own Karma. Nothing more, nothing less.

2. Vivek - This is exactly what I have always said. Its essential to use our Vivek/Chetna in whatever we do. You call it Vivek and I call it intellect/conscience. How many of us have questioned the relevance of these numerous rituals or traditions? Most of us blindly follow them. Somebody said that Ganesh idol has started drinking milk, and everybody is busy 'feeding' him. A country where 47% children suffer from malnutrition, tons of milk are poured over Ganesh Murtis and Shiva Lingas. Is that Bhakti? There are many Babas and Astrologers out there, showing all sort of magic tricks and claiming themselves to be divine manifestations. How many of us dare to question their cogency? Right from President downwards, everybody falls in their feet and pay them donations in millions. Have we ever thought why do these Avtaars appear only in India - why not in US, UK, Germany, France? Because they know their business won't flourish in those nations. In India, however, these Babas are millionaires and the best part is nobody can harm a hair of them. Their income is not taxable nor are they susceptible. They are considered above the nation's law. Is that Bhakti or stupidity?

3. You ask when did Krishna called upon us to disregard meaningless rituals and idol worship? Yes He did. He said so in Bhagwad Gita - He said that He's pleased by nothing more than Karma. Every other path is delusive. They only bear temporary fruits and turns us complacent. Karma is the ultimate Dharma and the only path to enlightenment. And when Krishna returned as Buddha, He openly shunned the hollow rituals, discarded the Vedas, cussed the fraud Brahmins and once again showed us the path of Karma in a much simpler way. 'Sincere Devotees' are those who understood this and dared to follow His ways and swam against the tides. While the rest, still trapped in materialism and vague traditions, continued to follow the path of Blind Faith.

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