My favorite fictional men!! - Page 2

Originally posted by: DJ_3

I enjoyed the comparison and it is a tried and tested formula. The additional part is Agastya also has the inner inferiority complex, where not accepted by the whole family. His status would have been different, would his elder half-brother was alive.

Thanks, yes it's a tried and tested formula. Most of Gul shows use the same basic template. As someone who has watched a lot of her shows, I can confirm that this is her signature. Ofcourse making Agastya have a past which is so haunting was unexpected.

He does tend to overcompensate due to the inferiority complex about his legitimacy. Somewhere the family ka behavior makes him realize the ehsaan they did by accepting him. I was to see the dynamic between the brothers while growing up and how his death impacted Agastya.

Wohooo such and lovely and thoughtful post Ren

I loved how you have pointed out all the similerties between these two men .. And each and every point is apart and goes according to there character 🙌🏻

I totally give credit to sai for portraying the Character of ASC so well that we could connect with each and every emotions of his writers have done good job writing August his good points and his flaws as well and sai is totally doing justice to what has told to portray him on screen 👏🏻 its great to see his growth as an actor❤

Originally posted by: s_kavya

Wohooo such and lovely and thoughtful post Ren

I loved how you have pointed out all the similerties between these two men .. And each and every point is apart and goes according to there character 🙌🏻

I totally give credit to sai for portraying the Character of ASC so well that we could connect with each and every emotions of his writers have done good job writing August his good points and his flaws as well and sai is totally doing justice to what has told to portray him on screen 👏🏻 its great to see his growth as an actor❤

Thanks Kavya. Will Darcy is a forever favorite. Agastya is also very well written and Sai is definitely acing the acting here. He always makes us proud.

Doesn't the dude insult her explicitly as "bar girl" all the time?

Darcy had many obnoxious ideas about the Bennet women's social etiquettes, and even about Mrs. Bennet's preoccupation with get her daughters married off better than her. But never once did Darcy blame any of the women in the book for exploitative acts of men. With regards to Georgianna, and even Lydia, he, as a grown man, knew that Wickham had exploited them. Austen, and by extension, Darcy blames Lydia's parents for not edifying her and protecting her better.

Getting Lydia married off to Wickham after her elopement becomes public is one of the important political points of Austen's works, that marriage for women is political and financial. It impacts their survival in a deeply hierarchical Victorian society.

Why does this dude here insult his wife for her profession in 2023? What is gentlemanly in that?

Originally posted by: Blueeeee

Doesn't the dude insult her explicitly as "bar girl" all the time?

Ofcourse there can't be a direct comparison here because Lizzy wasn't a bar singer or dancer for Darcy to point that out as an insult. Agastya does call her a bar girl all the time and that is totally wrong. I don't think any of us support this behavior of his.

You will eventually see a redemption track and Agastya will have to pay for every demeaning thing he's said to her (or his action of throwing the money at her again and again). I acknowledge the flaws in his character and the only way he'll prove himself as worthy of Imlie is if he undergoes a proper redemption.

If we don't get that, I'd be super mad. As far as Gul's other shows go, we do generally see a redemption track for the male leads. Now if one asks, is that commensurate to the pain that they cause the female leads, I'd say no. I would rather say the ideal way out would never be a happy ending. But that's not how an ITV show works neither any works of fiction. As long as he's a changed man and Imlie sees the change in his behavior and actions over a long time, they will get their happy ending.

Darcy had many obnoxious ideas about the Bennet women's social etiquettes, and even about Mrs. Bennet's preoccupation with get her daughters married off better than her. But never once did Darcy blame any of the women in the book for exploitative acts of men. Darcy does point out explicitly to Lizzy about the greed of her family when he proposed to her the first time(?) He even tried to save Mr. Bingley from such a marriage with Jane. He excluded Lizzy and Jane from being called greedy but everyone else including her father was called out.

With regards to Georgianna, and even Lydia, he, as a grown man, knew that Wickham had exploited them. Austen, and by extension, Darcy blames Lydia's parents for not edifying her and protecting her better. Lydia was a minor when she eloped with Wickham. How could Darcy have blamed her when he already knew of Wickham's selfish motives specially after Wickham had tried to exploit a minor Georgi as well. Can you blame Darcy for pointing out the poor upbringing of the Bennet family? Lydia was known for her notorious ways and was never reprimanded by her family. She was constantly around her mother with talks to finding a rich man for her daughters. Can you blame Lydia here in that case when that's all she grew up seeing and hearing from her mother.

Getting Lydia married off to Wickham after her elopement becomes public is one of the important political points of Austen's works, that marriage for women is political and financial. It impacts their survival in a deeply hierarchical Victorian society. The thing is after eloping with Wickham and being in love with him, what other choice did they have? Both of them wanted to marry each other, the only thing that Darcy could do was get them married. It wasn't about political or financial reasons, there's also a social disgrace element here. Bennet family had 5 unmarried girls. The news of the elopement of the youngest would cause a scandal in those times and would cause issues for future marriages of the other sisters too. This is equally true in today's age.

Why does this dude here insult his wife for her profession in 2023? What is gentlemanly in that? I'm not justifying Agastya for calling her a bar singer as an insult all the time. His mother was one and there are skeletons in his closet which we are yet to see. He should realise his mistakes and profusely apologize. That too before ashu ka truth is out.

In my opinion, I don't even think Imlie should consider this as an insult to her. She should keep her head high and give him back when he points that out or points out the fact that she fake married for money. I would not consider a bar singer something that's insulting as long as she's not doing anything illegal, why should her profession make her feel insulted. She's doing whatever to make ends meet. She should give it back to Agastya in equal measure whenever he says anything wrong about her character.

You raise very valid points. See my replies in red.

In summary, yes Agastya is wrong about a lot of things. He doesn't deserve Imlie at this moment. But he will deserve her someday and that is the journey and love story we are here to witness. This is exactly what Darcy went through (at a different level) in his love story with Lizzy. If Agastya was perfect and good to Imlie all the time, would we have a show?

Originally posted by: joliefemme

You raise very valid points. See my replies in red.

In summary, yes Agastya is wrong about a lot of things. He doesn't deserve Imlie at this moment. But he will deserve her someday and that is the journey and love story we are here to witness. This is exactly what Darcy went through (at a different level) in his love story with Lizzy. If Agastya was perfect and good to Imlie all the time, would we have a show?

You reiterate my points about what makes Darcy starkly different from the ML here and end with a rhetorical question as if we were saying different things about Darcy. Minor in our scientific and moral terms is very different from how it was conceptualised back then. That it was legal for a kid like Lydia to marry a creep like Wickham at all tells you that Darcy's stance was not the standard one. In the setting of Victorican English elite, neither Georgianna nor Lydia would have found much acceptance or even a peaceful life despite the fact that they were victims. Yet, Darcy doesn't blame the women for the exploitative things done by a man. He doesn't blame Lydia despite having deep prejudices about the Bennets.

Darcy points out directly about Mrs. Bennet's preoccupation with getting her daughters married off better than her own station. I have explicitly stated that. But his classist attitude doesn't extend to making insinuations about their sexuality. And he is a gentleman in spite of Lizzy's rejection. And he redeems himself despite of Lizzy's rejection. Till the very end, even after rescuing Lydia, he doesn't assume that Lizzy will have him. Anyhow, love stories are very marginal in Austen's politics. Marriage is a political and pragmatic decision for the women of her status. She ridicules Mrs. Bennet but, ultimately, she had valid reasons to obsess over her daughters' making a better match because they had no other financial security. That's why Charlotte ends up marrying a douche like Colins. Also the movie was much better than the book because Darcy remained obnoxious about etiquettes throughout and interesting albeit precocious women like bookish Mary change themselves entirely by the end of the book

Here, the dude marries her for some business deal and still continues to degrade her with insinuations about her sexuality. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a bar girl. But let's not pretend that the way it's used by the ML of the show is not explicitly derogatory.

Darcy and Agastya are not comparable because Lizzy was equally proud and prejudiced, and they both had growth by the end. Here, the guy is head-to-toe misogynist and the girl is already trying her best to be a great DIL. And even if she weren't, she is contractually obligated to be his wife for the time being. There is no equal footing lol.

Originally posted by: Blueeeee

You reiterate my points about what makes Darcy starkly different from the ML here and end with a rhetorical question as if we were saying different things about Darcy. Minor in our scientific and moral terms is very different from how it was conceptualised back then. That it was legal for a kid like Lydia to marry a creep like Wickham at all tells you that Darcy's stance was not the standard one. In the setting of Victorican English elite, neither Georgianna nor Lydia would have found much acceptance or even a peaceful life despite the fact that they were victims. Doesn't this apply even to the current times where after such a scandal it would be difficult for any victim to get the same amount of respect. This remains a fact. Considering Lydia had already eloped, Darcy believed that getting her settled was the most appropriate way to handle this.

Yet, Darcy doesn't blame the women for the exploitative things done by a man. Why should he blame the women? That wouldn't be the right thing to do specially considering his sister was once in the same position? I think your point stems from the fact that you believe Agastya to be a misogynist, this is where I agree to disagree. He doesn't blame Lydia despite having deep prejudices about the Bennets. His opinions about the senior Bennet couple was absolutely right.

Darcy points out directly about Mrs. Bennet's preoccupation with getting her daughters married off better than her own station. I have explicitly stated that. But his classist attitude doesn't extend to making insinuations about their sexuality. Again is it wrong to point out the facts? The book did explicitly show that the Bennett were on the look out for rich men for their daughters and Darcy pointing that out wasn't wrong.. ofcourse it hurt Lizzy to hear such a truth about her family but there was nothing wrong with what he said. Again, you seem to be pointing out about Agastya being a misogynist in contrast to Darcy which is not how I see his character.

And he is a gentleman in spite of Lizzy's rejection. And he redeems himself despite of Lizzy's rejection. Till the very end, even after rescuing Lydia, he doesn't assume that Lizzy will have him. Yes I agree with this. He realizes his mistake and makes amends without ever knowing if Lizzy will accept him. Here in Imlie, we haven't yet reached the point when Agastya makes amends. If I were to take any hints from Gul's previous shows, we will get a redemption track. Whether that is sufficient or not is a very subjective opinion.

Anyhow, love stories are very marginal in Austen's politics. Marriage is a political and pragmatic decision for the women of her status. She ridicules Mrs. Bennet but, ultimately, she had valid reasons to obsess over her daughters' making a better match because they had no other financial security. That's why Charlotte ends up marrying a douche like Colins. Also the movie was much better than the book because Darcy remained obnoxious about etiquettes throughout and interesting albeit precocious women like bookish Mary change themselves entirely by the end of the book I liked both the books as well as the movie. From the perspective of Mrs. Bennet, I do not find faults with her reasons. Whether or not her stance is morally right is again up to debate.

Here, the dude marries her for some business deal and still continues to degrade her with insinuations about her sexuality. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a bar girl. But let's not pretend that the way it's used by the ML of the show is not explicitly derogatory.

Both of them agreed for the contract marriage for their own selfish reasons. While one may find Imlie's reasons more genuine, the makers have established it very well Agastya had his own valid reasons too.

Whether or not the term 'bar girl' is derogatory is actually dependent on the recipient as well (I'm not implying Agastya is faultless here). Imlie has time and again pointed out that she's proud of what she does to feed her family. If you ask me, I want to see Imlie give it back to him as well as she gets.

Having said the above, one cannot deny that working in a bar is considered a shady profession as per society standards and will subject her to shame and ridicule. I'm not justifying Agastya calling her a bar girl and have never justified it. In fact I hope the writers are careful with how much they make him fall from grace.

Darcy and Agastya are not comparable because Lizzy was equally proud and prejudiced, and they both had growth by the end. Here, the guy is head-to-toe misogynist and the girl is already trying her best to be a great DIL. And even if she weren't, she is contractually obligated to be his wife for the time being. There is no equal footing lol.

The story of imlie is not entirely like Pride and Prejudice. I've pointed out similarities between both character as I see them, without saying that they are exactly the same. Ofcourse there will be some differences in their characters or even instances where the degree of similarities will vary. If they were an exact match, Gul would have been called out for plagiarism.

The thing is Imlie lied to him in the first meeting and everytime subsequently. He had his reasons to think she's an opportunist and gold digger due to the circumstances around their meetings.

Her accepting the contract marriage further commented his prejudice about her. Imlie has signed the contract marriage with consent for her own reasons and hence is obligated to play her part how much ever it goes against her basic nature.

I don't think Agastya is misogynistic. He is prejudiced because of his past (both this parent's affair and the subsequent death of his half brother) and considers the poor as opportunist. We haven't yet seen the complete picture about his past so I will hold on my opinion on how right or wrong his prejudice is.

Originally posted by: joliefemme

The story of imlie is not entirely like Pride and Prejudice. I've pointed out similarities between both character as I see them, without saying that they are exactly the same. Ofcourse there will be some differences in their characters or even instances where the degree of similarities will vary. If they were an exact match, Gul would have been called out for plagiarism.

The thing is Imlie lied to him in the first meeting and everytime subsequently. He had his reasons to think she's an opportunist and gold digger due to the circumstances around their meetings.

Her accepting the contract marriage further commented his prejudice about her. Imlie has signed the contract marriage with consent for her own reasons and hence is obligated to play her part how much ever it goes against her basic nature.

I don't think Agastya is misogynistic. He is prejudiced because of his past (both this parent's affair and the subsequent death of his half brother) and considers the poor as opportunist. We haven't yet seen the complete picture about his past so I will hold on my opinion on how right or wrong his prejudice is.

Lydia was 16. Today, she would have the protection of child protection services in the UK and have the legal avenue of POSCO act in India. SHE WOULD NOT BE MARRIED OFF AT 16— at least not legally, at present.

Lydia, an impoverished country gentleman's daughter in Victorian England, did not have those legal protections. No one would have called out Wickham for being a predator because Lydia eloped with him on her own accord; believing that he would marry her.

Darcy, being prejudiced against the rest of the Bennet family, still doesn't blame Lydia for what happened to her. That would not have been the standard view of elite men back then. Darcy's views regarding women's sexuality and exploitation remained same for his own well-mannered, rich sister and Lydia.

Imlie or anyone else working as singers, dancers, or even as sex workers are not defined by it— it is just work. "Bar girl" is not a profession and the derogatory nature of the term is not at all debatable in any context. Especially when, in reality, the majority of women working at bars are dalit. It is also not a classist slur. It has casteist and misogynist connotations.

Does the ML berate himself/his family members/friends for going to bars and giving them business? Again, just because society considers some professions less than doesn't mean that the men who patronise these professions can choose to berate the women involved in these professions. He, by your own view, proposed a contract to her for his own benefit and then has the audacity to berate her accepting it? Lmao what?

Forgot to add : Darcy's situations, his prejudice, and his redemption are not comparable to the ML here because Austen doesn't justify his views as a trauma response. Austen doesn't even disagree with his classism. But his prejudice against Bennets is about them not knowing their place. He dislikes mercenary people because they challenge English class hierarchies. He doesn't think all poor people are bad or that all women are man-eaters. His prejudice is directed at very specific characters in the book. And he manages to gain perspective despite Lizzy's rejection. Lizzy had true independence in her rejection

Here, even if Imlie were to harbour hatred for Agastya (they will obviously show her falling for her 'husband' fast enough), her rejection would mean nothing as she is still contractually obligated to be associated with the ML. Lizzy was not.

Originally posted by: Blueeeee

Lydia was 16. Today, she would have the protection of child protection services in the UK and have the legal avenue of POSCO act in India. SHE WOULD NOT BE MARRIED OFF AT 16— at least not legally, at present.

Lydia, an impoverished country gentleman's daughter in Victorian England, did not have those legal protections. No one would have called out Wickham for being a predator because Lydia eloped with him on her own accord; believing that he would marry her.

Darcy, being prejudiced against the rest of the Bennet family, still doesn't blame Lydia for what happened to her. That would not have been the standard view of elite men back then. Darcy's views regarding women's sexuality and exploitation remained same for his own well-mannered, rich sister and Lydia.

Imlie or anyone else working as singers, dancers, or even as sex workers are not defined by it— it is just work. "Bar girl" is not a profession and the derogatory nature of the term is not at all debatable in any context. Especially when, in reality, the majority of women working at bars are dalit. It is also not a classist slur. It has casteist and misogynist connotations.

Does the ML berate himself/his family members/friends for going to bars and giving them business? Again, just because society considers some professions less than doesn't mean that the men who patronise these professions can choose to berate the women involved in these professions. He, by your own view, proposed a contract to her for his own benefit and then has the audacity to berate her accepting it? Lmao what?

Forgot to add : Darcy's situations, his prejudice, and his redemption are not comparable to the ML here because Austen doesn't justify his views as a trauma response. Austen doesn't even disagree with his classism. But his prejudice against Bennets is about them not knowing their place. He dislikes mercenary people because they challenge English class hierarchies. He doesn't think all poor people are bad or that all women are man-eaters. His prejudice is directed at very specific characters in the book. And he manages to gain perspective despite Lizzy's rejection. Lizzy had true independence in her rejection

Here, even if Imlie were to harbour hatred for Agastya (they will obviously show her falling for her 'husband' fast enough), her rejection would mean nothing as she is still contractually obligated to be associated with the ML. Lizzy was not.

If Agastya was perfect and didn't look down upon her profession and poverty, we wouldn't have a story. He will have a redemption and realise all the mistakes he's been doing. If you've watched recent episodes, he has started apologizing, so this is the start.

Imlie is bound by the contract when it comes to playing the role of a dutiful wife. She's not bound by anything once the term of the contract will be over, when it is time to forgive him and accept his love. That's when she will have full control. I don't think her falling in love with Agastya will be because of the current contract they have signed.

I don't think you've read my initial post or the posts thereafter where I've clearly pointed out that Darcy and Agastya are similar in a lot of ways. That's my opinion and I continue to stand by it. You are free to keep to yours. Let's agree to disagree. I have nothing further to add.

Originally posted by: joliefemme

What is the current book that's getting ignored? And which book you are reading at the moment?

Hehe... The book I ignored earlier is pride and prejudice... The one I am currently reading is the lost symbol (Dan Brown)... I am a bit interested in the thriller genre..