The camera, the way women look, and falling in love - Page 6

Originally posted by: Deltablues

I wannnaaaaaa heaaaar

dude if my hubby kneads dough for making roti. it will turn me on more than asr getting out of that car or punching a random villager to oblivion.

Originally posted by: Deltablues

Am I being a clown by bringing in film theory to ITV?

(Tamarind)duh! 🤡

However, I will continue to be a clown.

Film theorists have variably argued the camera to be a voyeuristic apparatus. Mulvey, for example, argued the camera to be a technological prosthesis that allows the (male) spectator the illusion of voyeuristic separation while being anything but. Metz argued for two types of identification that an audience goes through while watching a film. The primary of which is dictated by the (male and voyeuristic) gaze of the camera itself. Which is to say, the camera dictates primarily how we consume a film, and secondary sociopsychic identification comes later.

All that nerdiness aside, the basic thing is that the camera enables the male gaze of the assumed audience. The difference can be seen in the way male and female characters are introduced in a cinematic narrative. We always know why the hero finds the heroine attractive. Not so much if the heroine finds the hero appealing at all. (See even how Imlie is introduced — zooming in on her slightly smiling lips, moving to the eyes; denoting her youthful beauty— as opposed to Aryan. Out of the luxury car, straightening his coat-jacket, cutting to the aviators— exuding masculine authority.)

Okay so prefacing this with I turned my brain off Friday after passing my research proposal defense and am now turning it on, thoughts in no specific order:

Even the female gaze in ITV is through the male understanding of what's attractive. While the Ektas and Guls of the world may run the show, there are very few directors who are women that I know of.

When Aryan was introduced, at the time they didn't know if the audience would like him and if he would stay antagonistic to Aditya (and Imlie) or become the love interest, and they still gave him the very eye-catching entry. Fancy car, the masculine authority like you said. They also gave us a protracted fight scene modeled directly after the Sherlock Holmes scene with RDJ.

If a man can't fight in ITV, is he really a man?

They've also with Aryan done the Mr. Darcy hand clench, and the single tear thing so many times (including with the hilarious sound effect) to show that he is actually affected by Imlie.

With Imlie being the POV of the show, even though she doesn't ever really articulate anything (bc we've also got a third person POV due to it being TV), we see that Aryan (because of his being written as a complete antithesis of Aditya) is precisely what women want. (Insert that delightful edit of feminist women love aryan eminem video here.)

That of course includes his personality but more importantly his looks. He's broad shouldered, he's tall (for ITV), he wears really nice clothes and takes care of his body (boxing, no carbs at 8pm, a gonchu), and he's literally so much bigger than her, he can cover her entire body with his. (Yes, I know how that sounds, it's Ramadan, leave me out of the thirst parade for the rest of the week, LOL).

Generally speaking audiences love the height/size difference (and this is almost universal across media types from the media research that I've done) not only in visual media, but especially in books (whether they're romance or romance is a sideplot, like in urban fantasy/high fantasy).

There's even been research that women (GENERALLY SPEAKING) find taller/larger men than them (if they are also into that person) makes them feel more feminine and protected.

Add in the last twenty years of socialization of very muscular big men (across Hollywood, Bollywood, and other media industries), it's fascinating to see what is now seen as attractive but wasn't pre 2000.

But Seher, what about Korean and Chinese and Japanese and other media where the men are usually slimmer? They are still muscular and toned! (And there's obviously an essay here on how problematic all of the above is when most people IRL aren't muscular and celebrities with money to keep up their body modification needs, but that's for another day lol).

However, if Aryan's personality sucked, it wouldn't matter how "hot" his body is (minus the people who only watch for that type of thing), Arylie fandom wouldn't exist at the size that it does, and Imlie wouldn't be shown to be slowly falling for him.

Which brings me to your original question about the food and hands. well, there's research too (usually from an evolutionary psychology perspective which at times can be bunk, but for the sake of the conversation), about hand attractiveness due to size, visible veins (which we usually associate with muscle elsewhere), the ability to care for the woman/their family, so on and so forth.

Like I said in my quick quote, ITV very much enforces that if a woman can't cook there's an issue (within context, Arpita doesn't cook but she grew up not having to and she's not shamed for it because she's not the FL), so for Aryan to be able to follow Imlie's directions and use his critical thinking skills to put out the literal perfect roti, that mimics her mothers' own, is huge both for them as characters, their development as a couple, and for the audience.

Because we've all joked about him not being able to cook, but why would he cook when he has a houseful of staff and had a revenge plot to organize? Knowing that he can cook (and knows how to use his hands which the show won't ever explicitly (hah) remark on, but the audience can pick up on) actually makes him and Imlie even more 50/50 partners. If this had been a pottery scene, well, we all know how that goes.

[Insert obligatory thirst here that I would say if it wasn't Ramadan.]

I think that's everything...my poor Google search is going to think I'm writing a romance novel.

Originally posted by: Deltablues

I wannnaaaaaa heaaaar

have written you an essay back!

Originally posted by: chotoranii

Okay so prefacing this with I turned my brain off Friday after passing my research proposal defense and am now turning it on, thoughts in no specific order:

Even the female gaze in ITV is through the male understanding of what's attractive. While the Ektas and Guls of the world may run the show, there are very few directors who are women that I know of.

When Aryan was introduced, at the time they didn't know if the audience would like him and if he would stay antagonistic to Aditya (and Imlie) or become the love interest, and they still gave him the very eye-catching entry. Fancy car, the masculine authority like you said. They also gave us a protracted fight scene modeled directly after the Sherlock Holmes scene with RDJ.

If a man can't fight in ITV, is he really a man?

They've also with Aryan done the Mr. Darcy hand clench, and the single tear thing so many times (including with the hilarious sound effect) to show that he is actually affected by Imlie.

With Imlie being the POV of the show, even though she doesn't ever really articulate anything (bc we've also got a third person POV due to it being TV), we see that Aryan (because of his being written as a complete antithesis of Aditya) is precisely what women want. (Insert that delightful edit of feminist women love aryan eminem video here.)

That of course includes his personality but more importantly his looks. He's broad shouldered, he's tall (for ITV), he wears really nice clothes and takes care of his body (boxing, no carbs at 8pm, a gonchu), and he's literally so much bigger than her, he can cover her entire body with his. (Yes, I know how that sounds, it's Ramadan, leave me out of the thirst parade for the rest of the week, LOL).

Generally speaking audiences love the height/size difference (and this is almost universal across media types from the media research that I've done) not only in visual media, but especially in books (whether they're romance or romance is a sideplot, like in urban fantasy/high fantasy).

There's even been research that women (GENERALLY SPEAKING) find taller/larger men than them (if they are also into that person) makes them feel more feminine and protected.

Add in the last twenty years of socialization of very muscular big men (across Hollywood, Bollywood, and other media industries), it's fascinating to see what is now seen as attractive but wasn't pre 2000.

But Seher, what about Korean and Chinese and Japanese and other media where the men are usually slimmer? They are still muscular and toned! (And there's obviously an essay here on how problematic all of the above is when most people IRL aren't muscular and celebrities with money to keep up their body modification needs, but that's for another day lol).

However, if Aryan's personality sucked, it wouldn't matter how "hot" his body is (minus the people who only watch for that type of thing), Arylie fandom wouldn't exist at the size that it does, and Imlie wouldn't be shown to be slowly falling for him.

Which brings me to your original question about the food and hands. well, there's research too (usually from an evolutionary psychology perspective which at times can be bunk, but for the sake of the conversation), about hand attractiveness due to size, visible veins (which we usually associate with muscle elsewhere), the ability to care for the woman/their family, so on and so forth.

Like I said in my quick quote, ITV very much enforces that if a woman can't cook there's an issue (within context, Arpita doesn't cook but she grew up not having to and she's not shamed for it because she's not the FL), so for Aryan to be able to follow Imlie's directions and use his critical thinking skills to put out the literal perfect roti, that mimics her mothers' own, is huge both for them as characters, their development as a couple, and for the audience.

Because we've all joked about him not being able to cook, but why would he cook when he has a houseful of staff and had a revenge plot to organize? Knowing that he can cook (and knows how to use his hands which the show won't ever explicitly (hah) remark on, but the audience can pick up on) actually makes him and Imlie even more 50/50 partners. If this had been a pottery scene, well, we all know how that goes.

[Insert obligatory thirst here that I would say if it wasn't Ramadan.]

I think that's everything...my poor Google search is going to think I'm writing a romance novel.

Firstly, congraaaaaaats!

Secondly, yes, Aryan being the hypermasculine archetype that is deconstructed with his feminism (cue my thesis from few days back). And, yes, at men dominating the direction scene.

But I think we are talking two very different things here. Or, rather approaching the same thing from two different ends. I was more specifically talking about how the discourse of female attractiveness is located within the female body and its consumption by the assumed male hero/audience. The camera is his gaze.

I am thinking more of scopophilia and Sartre :

"The recognition of the fact that I am indeed that object which the Other is looking at and judging. I can be ashamed only as my freedom escapes me in order to become a given object (Sartre 1992, 350)"

So, while, yes, the female gaze is also constructed through the same male gaze of the camera, but it's rare when the supposed attractiveness of the hero is located in the male body as well instead of being shrouded under more traditionally sociopsychic roles assigned to them (protector, provider, guide etc etc etc.)

Bah! We know Aru is great because he is the absolute antithesis of Imlie's abuser, but narratively just seeing Imlie consuming Aryan's body through her gaze is honestly amazing. I mean, her attraction has never clearly been enumerated in physical terms. Even if she sees the dexterity of his hands in kneading dough and associates it with ungliyon me jaadu hai elsewhere, that is still a more concrete expression of her attraction than the ambiguous dost references.

Heroines don't need a personality for the man to get attracted to them lol. The camera tells exactly how they are consuming the heroine's beauty.

See RHTDM, Khushi-Arnav's first interaction.

Do I make sense? Ahhhhhh

Originally posted by: chotoranii

Okay so prefacing this with I turned my brain off Friday after passing my research proposal defense and am now turning it on, thoughts in no specific order:

Even the female gaze in ITV is through the male understanding of what's attractive. While the Ektas and Guls of the world may run the show, there are very few directors who are women that I know of.

When Aryan was introduced, at the time they didn't know if the audience would like him and if he would stay antagonistic to Aditya (and Imlie) or become the love interest, and they still gave him the very eye-catching entry. Fancy car, the masculine authority like you said. They also gave us a protracted fight scene modeled directly after the Sherlock Holmes scene with RDJ.

If a man can't fight in ITV, is he really a man?

They've also with Aryan done the Mr. Darcy hand clench, and the single tear thing so many times (including with the hilarious sound effect) to show that he is actually affected by Imlie.

With Imlie being the POV of the show, even though she doesn't ever really articulate anything (bc we've also got a third person POV due to it being TV), we see that Aryan (because of his being written as a complete antithesis of Aditya) is precisely what women want. (Insert that delightful edit of feminist women love aryan eminem video here.)

That of course includes his personality but more importantly his looks. He's broad shouldered, he's tall (for ITV), he wears really nice clothes and takes care of his body (boxing, no carbs at 8pm, a gonchu), and he's literally so much bigger than her, he can cover her entire body with his. (Yes, I know how that sounds, it's Ramadan, leave me out of the thirst parade for the rest of the week, LOL).

Generally speaking audiences love the height/size difference (and this is almost universal across media types from the media research that I've done) not only in visual media, but especially in books (whether they're romance or romance is a sideplot, like in urban fantasy/high fantasy).

There's even been research that women (GENERALLY SPEAKING) find taller/larger men than them (if they are also into that person) makes them feel more feminine and protected.

Add in the last twenty years of socialization of very muscular big men (across Hollywood, Bollywood, and other media industries), it's fascinating to see what is now seen as attractive but wasn't pre 2000.

But Seher, what about Korean and Chinese and Japanese and other media where the men are usually slimmer? They are still muscular and toned! (And there's obviously an essay here on how problematic all of the above is when most people IRL aren't muscular and celebrities with money to keep up their body modification needs, but that's for another day lol).

However, if Aryan's personality sucked, it wouldn't matter how "hot" his body is (minus the people who only watch for that type of thing), Arylie fandom wouldn't exist at the size that it does, and Imlie wouldn't be shown to be slowly falling for him.

Which brings me to your original question about the food and hands. well, there's research too (usually from an evolutionary psychology perspective which at times can be bunk, but for the sake of the conversation), about hand attractiveness due to size, visible veins (which we usually associate with muscle elsewhere), the ability to care for the woman/their family, so on and so forth.

Like I said in my quick quote, ITV very much enforces that if a woman can't cook there's an issue (within context, Arpita doesn't cook but she grew up not having to and she's not shamed for it because she's not the FL), so for Aryan to be able to follow Imlie's directions and use his critical thinking skills to put out the literal perfect roti, that mimics her mothers' own, is huge both for them as characters, their development as a couple, and for the audience.

Because we've all joked about him not being able to cook, but why would he cook when he has a houseful of staff and had a revenge plot to organize? Knowing that he can cook (and knows how to use his hands which the show won't ever explicitly (hah) remark on, but the audience can pick up on) actually makes him and Imlie even more 50/50 partners. If this had been a pottery scene, well, we all know how that goes.

[Insert obligatory thirst here that I would say if it wasn't Ramadan.]

I think that's everything...my poor Google search is going to think I'm writing a romance novel.

Not you being more tharaki than the entire thread put together.🤣p

Cannot believe I am velli enough to quote Sartre for Aru than do my actual resear—

Please beat my ass.

I also hope Fahmaan never sees this thread.

🤣

Originally posted by: chotoranii

Okay so prefacing this with I turned my brain off Friday after passing my research proposal defense and am now turning it on, thoughts in no specific order:

..............

But Seher, what about Korean and Chinese and Japanese and other media where the men are usually slimmer? They are still muscular and toned! (And there's obviously an essay here on how problematic all of the above is when most people IRL aren't muscular and celebrities with money to keep up their body modification needs, but that's for another day lol).

....................

first of all, super!

so just responding to blue text (and cutting to keep it short) -- I have been watching kdramas for many, many years since we lived in south east asia for a while. the guys were actually a lot more chunkier and more normal size looking. so let me give you an example.

this is from the kdrama "beautiful days" (2001) -- you can tell just from the headshots, the guys are lot more chunky/chubby. these are not lean faces that you find now... they actually look rather normal.

the same with chinese HK dramas from that time period -- they were far more normal looking. this is louis koo from "step into the past" (2001)

then some trend towards skinny happened. was it due to size zero going global? the influence of kpop idol teenagers? not sure what...

P.S -- for those interested, 'beautiful days' is a great melodrama and has an interesting dynamic -- the guy who was supposed to be the second lead won viewers heart and so he got promoted to first lead/hero. unlike the BTS drama in Imlie, the guy who was first lead didn't quit but instead had his own interesting trajectory which was mostly sans romance. this is not the typical too nice second lead but was instead rather dark, angsty. he was meant to be the villain type character originally per writer's intention. there is lot of sizzle between the female lead and second lead (which is why he got promoted to hero, hahahahah) the female lead cries bucket of tears but she is way too good at it. the drama is full on power angst and you are thinking how will this mess be sorted and if a happy ending is really possible. absolute worth a watch for those like melos.

and from what I remember, 'step into the past' was a fun adventure comedy drama where this cop somehow gets transported into a time loop and ends up in the past and has to figure out how to survive the new environment as well as get back to his own time. of course, through it, he meets prominent historical characters and may even change/influence history a bit.

Originally posted by: Deltablues

Not you being more tharaki than the entire thread put together.🤣p

Originally posted by: mango.falooda

first of all, super!

so just responding to blue text (and cutting to keep it short) -- I have been watching kdramas for many, many years since we lived in south east asia for a while. the guys were actually a lot more chunkier and more normal size looking. so let me give you an example.

this is from the kdrama "beautiful days" (2001) -- you can tell just from the headshots, the guys are lot more chunky/chubby. these are not lean faces that you find now... they actually look rather normal.

the same with chinese HK dramas from that time period -- they were far more normal looking. this is louis koo from "step into the past" (2001)

then some trend towards skinny happened. was it due to size zero going global? the influence of kpop idol teenagers? not sure what...

P.S -- for those interested, 'beautiful days' is a great melodrama and has an interesting dynamic -- the guy who was supposed to be the second lead won viewers heart and so he got promoted to first lead/hero. unlike the BTS drama in Imlie, the guy who was first lead didn't quit but instead had his own interesting trajectory which was mostly sans romance. this is not the typical too nice second lead but was instead rather dark, angsty. he was meant to be the villain type character originally per writer's intention. there is lot of sizzle between the female lead and second lead (which is why he got promoted to hero, hahahahah) the female lead cries bucket of tears but she is way too good at it. the drama is full on power angst and you are thinking how will this mess be sorted and if a happy ending is really possible. absolute worth a watch for those like melos.

and from what I remember, 'step into the past' was a fun adventure comedy drama where this cop somehow gets transported into a time loop and ends up in the past and has to figure out how to survive the new environment as well as get back to his own time. of course, through it, he meets prominent historical characters and may even change/influence history a bit.