The Print Article - Indians ignore what was done to Subhadra - Page 2

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@bold - I think if you read the text, Krishna instructed him for it. Knowing Arjun, if Subhadra was his real love interest (only love at first sight ie attraction is mentioned in text) he could have easily asked for her hand. Krishna suggested it first, he was the one who asked Arjun to abduct her.

Also, I do not think Krishna would have done something of this sort if Subhadra was completely disinterested. I am sure she was not in love with Arjun as she didn't even know him, but I don't particularly think she had a problem with this. However she hardly has dialogues so this is my assumptions based on Arjun and Krishna's deeds and character. I maybe wrong.

However, I still don't think Arjun is to be really blamed alone. If we are talking about abduction of princesses, there are several such instances and we have fo address this point of abduction as a form of marriage as wrong.

Abduction as a form of marriage is completely wrong, but I think the point TM wants to make here is that when it is done by Duryodhan, Bhanumati becomes the sufferer and the act becomes bad, when it is by Bheeshm Pitahmah, it's wrong but then he didn't have many other options so it is pardonable, when done by Arjun, it becomes a love story

Why is the same act given three completely different responses

Abduction is wrong but it wasn't considered so in those days. Even Vedas permit Har Vivah as a form of marriage, so what Arjun did (or what Bheeshm or Duryodhan did) wasn't illegal or wrong.

The point here is that Krishna having his doubts over his sister's intention asked Arjun to abduct.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

If he could manipulate or convince her as easily, he would have done it and we wouldn't be discussing this. It would have been better for Krushna as all he had to do was manipulate or convince Subhadra to choose Arjun and Balram would have been fine with it. If she had to do something which her brother decides for her that defeats the purpose and right of Swayamvar given to her, What I am trying to say is that when people know they have a certain right, they do it, Krushna was in no position to decide for her as it was the only right given to her and he himself admits that he doesn't know what she will do if given self choice so he takes that away from her. If he could manipulate her, he would have done it rather he asks Arjun to force himself on her.

The thing is that a woman was considered ruined if she was found in compromised position with a man, Once abducted she really didn't have any choice but marry Arjun

One more thing here is that Subhadra was Balram's sister and Krushna's half sister, She lived in Balaram's palace (Not sure about it)

Yes she was born to Rohini. All together Krishna Balram were 86 siblings. Hence Duryodhan willing to marry Subhadra only for alliance sake doesn't seem possible, even if Subhadra gone, he could have tried other Yadav sister. Balram too could have married his other sister to Duryodhan, because it wasn't that Subhadra was anywhere better than other sisters of Krishna Balram until then (she became one later when her grand son ascended the throne and his great grandson heard the story we know now)

Saying that I don't think it matters much she was as much the sister of Krishna as she was of Balram. Ram ji n Bharatji were half brothers, so were the Pandavas. In fact biologically speaking Nakul Sahdev were not even blood related to the other three, yet their love for each other was no less

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Which one is correct?

Who knows?😕 I'm inclined to think northern recension because of the cold political calculation on Krishna's part. Not many interpolaters would dare do that to him without couching it in a hundred excuses.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^ Krishna could hardly manipulate Balram. Despite being the husband of his sister, Arjun was never dearer to Balram ji than Duryodhan, there is no need to believe that Krishna ji could have manipulated everyone.

This line in the epic clearly indicate that he wasn't sure that he would be able to manipulate her

As I said, I don't buy that Balram ji insisting on the marriage with Duryodhan story since had it been so, Duryodhan would have attempted to marry other Yadav princess and Blaram would have facilitated that

Did Balram have other sisters? Half may be, but full? Because Balram ran the show in Dwaraka. If Subhadra was Rohini's only daughter, then marrying her would ensure Dwaraka's support in a way other sisters wouldn't. Well... Balram went ahead and supported Suyodhana anyway.😆

That being said, because this story is not in KMG, I have a suspicion that Krishna engineered it to make sure Arjuna was able to return to Dwaraka with everyone's ruffled feathers soothed. If Arjuna's "weapon" in Panchali's chambers means what I think it does, Arjuna-Subhadra marriage was absolutely essential before he could return.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Vasudev ji had 86 children from all his wives. There is no reason to believe that Subhadra was the only girl in those 86( will still recheck on this)

Even if the other sisters were not Rohini's daughter, I don't think it would mean they will not have much influence on Dwarka association. Balram ji was least interested in his sister's husband or Bua's sons. For Krishna and other Yadav brothers all the sisters would be equal (Subhadra or someone else)

What is your weapon theory though? Would like to know you are very well researched

Thanks. There are other people who are actually well researched, but I'll take the compliment😆.

Like I said to Nora, there was no one yer rule. There was no legit reason for Arjuna to get exiled for simply seeing Yudhishtira and Panchali together in the weapons room if it were actually a weapon. He didn't even need to go to the weapons room. Arjuna didn't have his gandeev yet, and for a regular bow and arrows, he could've simply borrowed from any of the guards.

My theory might not sit well with a lot of people, but remember this is only speculation based on psychology of men and women.

I think there was lingering attraction between Arjuna and Panchali from swayamvar. I think by "weapon," Vyasa meant... er... his male weapon. He might've gotten caught making a move when he wasn't supposed to. I don't know if she reciprocated. In any case, he got exiled.

Krishna wasn't informed for whatever reason. After a year, when Arjuna ended up in Dwaraka, Krishna got to hear of the events. He knew Arjuna needed to return for future plans... ie, empire building. Ulupi was a naga girl and Chitrangada stayed in Manipura; neither situation was enough to make sure the awkwardness was soothed. Krishna saw Arjuna was attracted to Subhadra. If they were married, she could actually be the ticket to his reentry into Indraprastha as all parties wouldn't want to mess up that alliance - neither Arjuna by breaking her heart, nor the Pandava family by not welcoming her and her husband in.

Actually, this exile in the absence of the one year rule is another piece of evidence against polyandry. If she were indeed married to all 5 with no such rule, why was Arjuna exiled? There are other interesting bits as well which add to my disbelief of polyandry, but that's another discussion.

Originally posted by: naq5

dint arjun get the gandeev during the khandavprastha forest burning😕. or did the forest burning happen after his exile

Forest burning happened after exile.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I had replied on the other thread.

Maybe this was the reason for Draupadi's anger--Arjun didn't fulfill his punishment properly, him marrying other girls wouldn't have been of much importance to her otherwise.

Coming to your other point, if at all it was the weapon we are assuming, he definitely didn't go to the Armoury to use that. He definitely went to Draupadi's chamber exposing the weapon where probably YuDrau were having their personal time.

This called for punishment and exile.

Hence HearMeRoar has a point, him having other wives in the palace was necessary since till then Draupadi was his only wife and therefore he had to reach out to her whenever........ need arose

Saying that, if what we are discussing here is even 10% true, Pandavas weren't as ideal brothers and inseparable ones as we think them to be. They could have been pretty easily separated had KaDuDuNi planned well. They remained together just by chance not much by love(unlike the Raghukul brothers)

Entering the chamber exposing his weapon seems too far fetched to me. He could at least enter the room and then try. I don't think Arjun would do that, but going in and trying his luck is understandable.

I think it was simple, he just entered the room where Yudhi Drau was present. Maybe weapon was added later to justify his entering the room

My God! Where has this discussion gone?😆

One thing to remember is Mahabharata is called Itihaasa KAAVYA. It was narrated as a poem. Poetry contains similes, metaphors, euphemisms.

@Flauntpessimism. I don't think I said there were NO rules. Just that there was no one year rule. If I accidentally wrote there was NO rule, it was an error. I apologize.

All Narada said was other brothers shouldn't intrude when one Pandava is with Panchali. In a general context it makes no sense whatsoever because she wasn't a queen in name only. She was a working woman and would constantly be in the company of one Pandava or the other since she controlled the treasury. I do not believe there was polyandry, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say there was. The only way Narada's instruction makes sense is to interpret it as do not bug her for relations when she is supposed to be with one of the others.

In that context, king and queen being in the room with weapons and Arjuna intruding in no way justifies an exile. They were at work, and he was at work.

If we take weapon in room as a euphemism (remember, Mahabharata is poetry) for physical relations, it can only mean Arjuna approached her out of turn.

None of this meant he needed another wife. Sorry to say, Pandavas kept slave girls, too. Arjuna didn't need wives to satisfy his needs.

Nor did he show any signs of being an exhibitionist to walk into her room with his weapon out.

His wives were because 1) he liked them and 2) political alliances were done through marriage a lot of times.

Arjuna's exile was 13 months according to the summary given by Vaishampayana in Adi Pafva. 13 months is all it takes for even one horse to carry a man through the route even including bathroom and sleep breaks. Yeah😆, I was nutty enough to calculate.

More proof of this comes in Krishna's lack of awareness of the exile. There is no way 12 years passed without Krishna knowing.

When he was told, he saw an opportunity to solve the problem AND cement the alliance between the two nations. Subhadra would be the key to soothing Yudhishtira and Panchali's likely anxieties about a recurrent issue. They would know that Subhadra, as Krishna's sister, would be treated like a gem by Arjuna in a way perhaps other wives wouldn't have been... which would include not fixating on Panchali.

Notice how Arjuna doesn't inform Yudhishtira beforehand about the marriage with Chitrangada. With Subhadra, Arjuna sends word ahead before the abduction.

Once Arjuna gets to Indraprastha, the order of his visits is important. The king, the queen, the queen mother. If these were personal visits, the order would be different.

Also, Arjuna had no reason to apologize for a regular marriage. Panchali knew he would marry, and she would've expected the ladies to take up residence in Indraprastha. The only reason for Arjuna to apologize would be for whatever happened before.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Oh okay.

If nothing is the way words say it is, then I guess there's not much to argue with. I thought Brahmacharya means to practice celibacy for that year ie not marry/establish sexual relations.

Now if none of what words say is what they say, then I'll just rest my case. Probably not my cup of tea to understand the implications. 😛

Seems like nothing of the story that's left is true. If polyandry is an interpolation, the story completely changes IMO. So I take my leave 😆😆

(no sarcasm intended, hope none take offence) :))

That was just my doing 🙃😂

In Mahabharata text, Arjun practiced celibacy till he encountered Uloopi who abducted him (He wasn't too happy about it 🙄 Ah The Irony), he told Uloopi that he has taken Vrat of celibacy, Uloopi tells him that he has to practice celibacy in regards to Draupadi only, Means he can't sleep with Draupadi 😂😂 It was after this he accepted Uloopi