First encounter with Mahabharata - Page 4

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Arjuna was under discussion, so I mentioned him. None of the Pandavas were good husbands/fathers. Their priorities were Yudhishtira, each other, Bheeshma, Kuru elders, Drona, in somewhat that order. The rest barely counted.

Arjuna had his brothers and his friend with him to console after the deaths of his grandfather and teacher. A wife would be ideal, but it's not the same as a son dying and a spouse refusing to go. Yes, Arjuna said he didn't want to go. 

A husband/wife has the responsibility to do that for spouse and not send her brother in his stead. That would be a non-negotiable part of any marriage (short of a physical impediment) if such terrible circumstances ever rose. Arjuna's emotional wreckitude is not close to being a good enough excuse for not going.

Krishna was also part of war and got shot at many times. He still went to his sister and returned to participate in the war. Driving a chariot is just as much physical activity.

The fact that Arjuna didn't do it for Iravan, and he didn't visit Babruvahana only proves the point, no? He was a terrible husband and worse father. 

Reckless vow interpretation would stand ONLY if he took it against the people responsible. He didn't vow to kill Drona or Karna or Suyodhana or even Dusshasana's son. He vowed to kill a peripheral player. 

Dusshashan's son died on the same day. The blow by Abhimanyu was strong enough to kill him so he couldn't have taken that vow. And he didn't forgive the others, he killed Vrishsen in exact similar manner making Karna witness his son's death and being unable to do anything, the gave Drona exactly the same pain before his death by a semi lie. 

By the way is the name of Dushy's son mentioned anywhere

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Subhadra had Draupadi and other women to console her too. Human emotions are equal for human, they are not different for men and women 

Is it mentioned that Krishna traveled to break the news to Subhadra? When I read it, it seemed Arjuna, Subhadra, Krishna were in one room and Arjuna asked Krishna to console Subhadra, He didn't ask Krishna to ride out and break the news to Subhadra, Can you provide the citation where he refused to go? 

The death of a SON is not the same as death of a grandfather or teacher. It makes a huge difference. Subhadra should ideally have been present for Arjuna after death of Bheeshma/Drona, but it is nowhere close to the death of a child and the husband refusing to be the one consoling her. Short of a physical problem, as in simply not being able to go, it was Arjuna's responsibility.

Any wife and mother will tell you the same. Actually any husband/father will tell you the same. When a terrible tragedy such as the death of a child occurs, yeah, the spouses have to be there for each other, exponentially more so than when any other relative dies.

Krishna went elsewhere to meet Subhadra - I think they were in a diff tent in Pandava camp. Some say Upapalavya, But that was at least a few hours ride from Kurukshetra, so I doubt Krishna had the time to go there and return at night and be ready for battle the next morning.

Arjuna's entire manner is actually quite troubling in the post Abhimanyu episode. 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07073.htm

"Sanjaya continued,--'Having said these words unto Hrishikesa, the son of Vasudeva, having himself said so unto his own self, Arjuna in a deep voice, once more addressed lord Kesava, saying--Thou shouldst O Krishna, so act that my car may be well equipt as soon as this night dawns, since grave is the task that is at hand!'"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07074.htm

en the mighty-armed son of Pakasasana said unto Krishna. 'Go, and comfort thy sister Subhadra with her daughter-in-law. And, O Madhava, let also that daughter-in-law, and her companions, be comforted by thee; O lord, comfort them with soothing words that are again fraught with truth.' Thus addressed, Vasudeva, with a cheerless heart, wending to Arjuna's abode, began to comfort his sorrowing sister afflicted with grief on account of the death of her son.'

...

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07076.htm

"Sanjaya said, 'Then lord Kesava, of eyes like lotus-petals, having entered the unrivalled mansion of Arjuna, touched water, and spread (for Arjuna) on the auspicious and even floor an excellent bed of Kusa blades that were of the hue of the lapis lazuli. And keeping excellent weapons around that bed, he adorned it duly with garlands of flowers and fried paddy, perfumes and other auspicious articles. And after Partha (also) had touched water, meek and submissive attendants brought the usual nightly sacrifice to the Three-eyed (Mahadeva). Then Partha, with a cheerful soul, having smeared Madhava with perfumes and adorned with floral garlands, presented unto Mahadeva the nightly offering. 1 Then Govinda, with a faint smile, addressed Partha, saying, 'Blessed be thou, O Partha, lay thyself down, I leave thee.' Placing door-keepers then, and also sentinels well-armed, blessed Kesava, followed by (his charioteer) Daruka, repaired to his own tent. He then laid himself down on his white bed, and thought of diverse measures to be adopted. And the illustrious one (Kesava) of eyes like lotus petals, began for Partha's sake, to think of various means that

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Dusshashan's son died on the same day. The blow by Abhimanyu was strong enough to kill him so he couldn't have taken that vow. And he didn't forgive the others, he killed Vrishsen in exact similar manner making Karna witness his son's death and being unable to do anything, the gave Drona exactly the same pain before his death by a semi lie. 

By the way is the name of Dushy's son mentioned anywhere

@Bold. I did not know this. 

Going after Karna's son was disgusting IMO. Arjuna didn't go after Karna.

And Arjuna didn't do a single thing to Drona. Bheema and Yudhishtira helped Dhrishtadyumna in it. Arjuna wanted to kill Dhrishtadyumna for it. And DHRISHTADYUMNA actually reminded Arjuna of Drona's part in killing Abhimanyu. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

The death of a SON is not the same as death of a grandfather or teacher. It makes a huge difference. Subhadra should ideally have been present for Arjuna after death of Bheeshma/Drona, but it is nowhere close to the death of a child and the husband refusing to be the one consoling her. Short of a physical problem, as in simply not being able to go, it was Arjuna's responsibility.

Any wife and mother will tell you the same. Actually any husband/father will tell you the same. When a terrible tragedy such as the death of a child occurs, yeah, the spouses have to be there for each other, exponentially more so than when any other relative dies.

Krishna went elsewhere to meet Subhadra - I think they were in a diff tent in Pandava camp. Some say Upapalavya, But that was at least a few hours ride from Kurukshetra, so I doubt Krishna had the time to go there and return at night and be ready for battle the next morning.

Arjuna's entire manner is actually quite troubling in the post Abhimanyu episode. 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07073.htm

"Sanjaya continued,--'Having said these words unto Hrishikesa, the son of Vasudeva, having himself said so unto his own self, Arjuna in a deep voice, once more addressed lord Kesava, saying--Thou shouldst O Krishna, so act that my car may be well equipt as soon as this night dawns, since grave is the task that is at hand!'"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07074.htm

en the mighty-armed son of Pakasasana said unto Krishna. 'Go, and comfort thy sister Subhadra with her daughter-in-law. And, O Madhava, let also that daughter-in-law, and her companions, be comforted by thee; O lord, comfort them with soothing words that are again fraught with truth.' Thus addressed, Vasudeva, with a cheerless heart, wending to Arjuna's abode, began to comfort his sorrowing sister afflicted with grief on account of the death of her son.'

...

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07076.htm

"Sanjaya said, 'Then lord Kesava, of eyes like lotus-petals, having entered the unrivalled mansion of Arjuna, touched water, and spread (for Arjuna) on the auspicious and even floor an excellent bed of Kusa blades that were of the hue of the lapis lazuli. And keeping excellent weapons around that bed, he adorned it duly with garlands of flowers and fried paddy, perfumes and other auspicious articles. And after Partha (also) had touched water, meek and submissive attendants brought the usual nightly sacrifice to the Three-eyed (Mahadeva). Then Partha, with a cheerful soul, having smeared Madhava with perfumes and adorned with floral garlands, presented unto Mahadeva the nightly offering. 1 Then Govinda, with a faint smile, addressed Partha, saying, 'Blessed be thou, O Partha, lay thyself down, I leave thee.' Placing door-keepers then, and also sentinels well-armed, blessed Kesava, followed by (his charioteer) Daruka, repaired to his own tent. He then laid himself down on his white bed, and thought of diverse measures to be adopted. And the illustrious one (Kesava) of eyes like lotus petals, began for Partha's sake, to think of various means that

Moreover, he sent KRISHNA to break the news about Abhimanyu's death! If that wasn't a point in their marriage where Subhadra needed Arjuna's support, what was? Even if there was worry/guilt involved, Arjuna didn't even follow Krishna to comfort Subhadra. He remained in the comfort of his tent and made a ridiculous vow to attack someone only peripherally involved in Abhimanyu's death to the point Krishna yelled at him. 

You are implying that Krishna told the news of Abhimnyu's death to Subhadra, The above chapter mentions Arjuna asking Krishna to comfort/console Subhadra, not break the news to her, Subhadra was already crying for Abhimnyu's death

@red - 

Thus addressed, Vasudeva, with a cheerless heart, wending to Arjuna's abode, began to comfort his sorrowing sister afflicted with grief on account of the death of her son.'

"Vasudeva said, 'O lady of Vrishni's race, do not grieve, with thy daughter-in-law, for thy son. G timid one, all creatures have but one end ordained by Time. The end thy son hath met with-that becometh a hero of proud lineage, especially who is a Kshatriya. Do not, therefore, grieve.

It doesn't mention Krishna moving from one room to another or Krishna breaking the news, Subhadra was in grief and Arjuna asked Krishna to console her. This is not where she got to know the news, It is after she got to know it 

Arjuna sent Krishna to console Subhadra, Draupadi, Uttara because he could do it, Krishna was emotionally equipped to do this and he was Subhadra's brother who was closer to Draupadi too and was tactful enough to handle a situation like this one

Abhimnyu was as much of Arjuna's son as he was of Subhadra, Why didn't Arjuna's wives come to console him? He was a terrible husband but they were good wives, no? 

You see this parameter of good/bad spouse is incorrect when one is in a situation like war 

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Moreover, he sent KRISHNA to break the news about Abhimanyu's death! If that wasn't a point in their marriage where Subhadra needed Arjuna's support, what was? Even if there was worry/guilt involved, Arjuna didn't even follow Krishna to comfort Subhadra. He remained in the comfort of his tent and made a ridiculous vow to attack someone only peripherally involved in Abhimanyu's death to the point Krishna yelled at him. 

You are implying that Krishna told the news of Abhimnyu's death to Subhadra, The above chapter mentions Arjuna asking Krishna to comfort/console Subhadra, not break the news to her, Subhadra was already crying for Abhimnyu's death

@red - 

Thus addressed, Vasudeva, with a cheerless heart, wending to Arjuna's abode, began to comfort his sorrowing sister afflicted with grief on account of the death of her son.'

"Vasudeva said, 'O lady of Vrishni's race, do not grieve, with thy daughter-in-law, for thy son. G timid one, all creatures have but one end ordained by Time. The end thy son hath met with-that becometh a hero of proud lineage, especially who is a Kshatriya. Do not, therefore, grieve.

It doesn't mention Krishna moving from one room to another or Krishna breaking the news, Subhadra was in grief and Arjuna asked Krishna to console her. This is not where she got to know the news, It is after she got to know it 

Arjuna sent Krishna to console Subhadra, Draupadi, Uttara because he could do it, Krishna was emotionally equipped to do this and he was Subhadra's brother who was closer to Draupadi too and was tactful enough to handle a situation like this one

Abhimnyu was as much of Arjuna's son as he was of Subhadra, Why didn't Arjuna's wives come to console him? He was a terrible husband but they were good wives, no? 

You see this parameter of good/bad spouse is incorrect when one is in a situation like war 

It says Krishna returned to Arjuna's abode which cannot happen if they were in the same room.

No. Consoling after the death of a child is not a responsibility which can be turfed to a brother.

Krishna was in the same war that Arjuna was participating in. That excuse doesn't fly.

Also, Subhadra, even if in same camp, couldn't know when Arjuna returned. He'd know where she was just as Krishna knew. So yeah, Arjuna had the responsibility to go to her.

And Arjuna was clear-minded enough to let the mastermind of the killing off the hook. Drona, the teacher. Arjuna was not so emotionally overwrought that he couldn't think logically and vow to kill someone important to him. Even after Drona was killed, Arjuna went after Dhrishtadyumna for attacking his precious teacher, and Dhrishtadyumna had to remind Arjuna about Abhimanyu.

Sorry to put in this between serious discussions but suddenly I thought of a scene the showmakers might try

Before the war all the Kaurav kids are together Lakshman, Dusshashan's son, maybe Vrishsen too having some funny moments.

Enter Abhimanyu to taunt them stating that their laughter is only short lived angering everyone there. 

Dushhasan's son being agitated after Abhimanyu leaves and says "Ye bhi Bilkul Arjun kakashri ki Tarah hi khud ko sarvashresth samajhta hai, meri Shakti Ka abhi ise pata nhi iska Vadh to mere hi haathon Hoga"

Lakshman n Vrihsena and others then giving him looks like "Tu karega iska Vadh" not knowing that it would get true

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Sorry to put in this between serious discussions but suddenly I thought of a scene the showmakers might try

Before the war all the Kaurav kids are together Lakshman, Dusshashan's son, maybe Vrishsen too having some funny moments.

Enter Abhimanyu to taunt them stating that their laughter is only short lived angering everyone there. 

Dushhasan's son being agitated after Abhimanyu leaves and says "Ye bhi Bilkul Arjun kakashri ki Tarah hi khud ko sarvashresth samajhta hai, meri Shakti Ka abhi ise pata nhi iska Vadh to mere hi haathon Hoga"

Lakshman n Vrihsena and others then giving him looks like "Tu karega iska Vadh" not knowing that it would get true

😆 Oy. This scene has poor Abhimanyu looking like a villain. No way. I will file PIL.😆 

This jaydharth s thing disturbs me deeply more because latter arjuna hesitate to kill karna krishna has to probe him into it. While he rebukes drishtdyum for drona when the other had a greater role to play in abhimanyu s death. This makes me think that more than it being father s revenge for his son it was arjuna s bruised ego talking 

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

This jaydharth s thing disturbs me deeply more because latter arjuna hesitate to kill karna krishna has to probe him into it. While he rebukes drishtdyum for drona when the other had a greater role to play in abhimanyu s death. This makes me think that more than it being father s revenge for his son it was arjuna s bruised ego talking 

More guilt than revenge.

Remember, when Jayadratha was stopped after he tried to abduct Panchali, the younger Pandavas were given 2 options.

Yudhishtira said they should let Jayadratha go because he was married to their sister.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03269.htm

And Yudhishthira replied, saying, 'O thou of mighty arms remembering (our sister) Dussala and the celebrated Gandhari, thou shouldst not slay the king of Sindhu even though he is so wicked!'

Vaisampayana continued, "Hearing these words, Draupadi was greatly excited. And that highly intelligent lady in her excitement said to her two husbands, Bhima and Arjuna with indignation mixed with modesty, 'If you care to do what is agreeable to me, you must slay that mean and despicable wretch, that sinful, foolish, infamous and contemptible chief of the Saindhava clan! That foe who forcibly carries away a wife, and he that wrests a kingdom, should never be forgiven on the battle-field, even though he should supplicate for mercy!' 

Bheema was about to kill Jayadratha, and Arjuna stops him, saying Yudhishtitra didn't want it. Then, Arjuna and Bheema humiliate the heck out of Jayadratha before letting him go.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03270.htm

Then Falguna dissuaded the wrathful Bhimasena from inflicting further chastisement on the prince, by reminding him of what Yudhishthira had said regarding (their sister) Dussala. But Bhima replied, saying, 'This sinful wretch hath done a cruel injury to Krishna, who never can bear such treatment. He, therefore, deserveth to die at hands! But what can I do? The king is always overflowing with mercy, and thou, too, art constantly putting obstacles in my way from a childish sense of virtue!' Having said these words, Vrikodara, with his crescent-shaped arrow, shaved the hair of the prince's head, heaving five tufts in as many places. Jayadratha uttered not a word at this. 

Now, flash forward to Abhimanyu vadh. Imagine what Arjuna might be thinking. He knows if he hadn't stopped Bheema that day Abhimanyu might have lived. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

It says Krishna returned to Arjuna's abode which cannot happen if they were in the same room.

No. Consoling after the death of a child is not a responsibility which can be turfed to a brother.

Krishna was in the same war that Arjuna was participating in. That excuse doesn't fly.

Also, Subhadra, even if in same camp, couldn't know when Arjuna returned. He'd know where she was just as Krishna knew. So yeah, Arjuna had the responsibility to go to her.

And Arjuna was clear-minded enough to let the mastermind of the killing off the hook. Drona, the teacher. Arjuna was not so emotionally overwrought that he couldn't think logically and vow to kill someone important to him. Even after Drona was killed, Arjuna went after Dhrishtadyumna for attacking his precious teacher, and Dhrishtadyumna had to remind Arjuna about Abhimanyu.

It says that Krishna returned to Arjuna's "side" not "Abode"

You said Arjuna sent Krishna to break the news to Subhadra and Arjuna "refused" to go/ Arjuna said he didn't want to go

"Arjuna had his brothers and his friend with him to console after the deaths of his grandfather and teacher. A wife would be ideal, but it's not the same as a son dying and a spouse refusing to go. Yes, Arjuna said he didn't want to go. 

Arjuna's son died too, none of his wives came to console him, that makes them a bad wife and unworthy of Arjuna so fittus, at least Arjuna thought about them and sent Krishna to take care of them, they didn't even think to send someone to know how he was doing.

But this is not my opinion, my opinion is that Subhadra knew about Abhimanyu's death, its not stated that Arjuna did not console her, the only incident reported is Arjuna sending Krishna and Krishna consoling 3 women, the fact that Arjuna knew Subhadra was crying and sent Krishna tells you that he had been there, the fact that there was an incident when she got to know the truth before this one tells you this is not an isolated incident. Arjuna sending Krishna to break the news and Arjuna refusing are incorrect statements

I don't see problem with Krishna consoling Subhadra and Draupadi because Krishna was emotionally equipped to make them feel better, this was the point of sending Krishna, Arjuna didn't think he could soothe them and make them feel better when he wasn't feeling  good

Drona was mastermind of killing is your opinion, Arjuna blames Jayadrath for Abhimanyu's death

Arjuna said,---'Truly do I swear that tomorrow I will slay Jayadratha! If from fear of death, he doth not forsake the Dhritarashtras, or implore our protection, or the protection of Krishna that foremost of men or of thine, O king, I shall assuredly slay him tomorrow! Forgetting his friendship for me, engaged in doing what is agreeable to Dhritarashtra's son, that wretch is the cause of the child's slaughter! Tomorrow I will slay him! Whoever they may be that will encounter me in battle tomorrow for protecting him, be it Drona, or Kripa, O king, I will cover them all with my arrow! 

Arjuna didn't witness everything, he was told Yudi and team couldn't help Abhimanyu because Jayadrath stopped them, going in Chakravyuh was Abhimanyu and Yudi's decision, their plan failed because of Jayadrath

""Sanjaya said, 'After Partha had vowed the death of the ruler of the Sindhus, the mighty-armed Vasudeva addressed Dhananjaya and said,--With the consent of thy brothers (alone, but without consulting me), thou hast sworn, saying--I will slay the ruler of the Sindhus! This hath been an act of great rashness (on thy part)! Without consulting me, thou hast taken up a great weight (upon thy shoulders)! Alas, how shall we escape the ridicule of all men? 

This is what Krishna said, he is not scolding Arjuna for vowing to kill a peripheral player, these words and what happened next day are evidence of how Arjuna had actually staked his life in his rashness, one can say he was doing drama but for what? He put his life at stake here because he was angry and hurt, he wasn't thinking straight 

This parameter of good/bad spouse is understood in normal circumstances, I don't think it was responsibility of people who were in the war to show how good they were as husbands, because they were putting their lives at risk everyday. It was Abhimanyu that day, it could be Arjuna on day 14. 

I will stop here

@TM Sorry