Mastani, Rakma Bai Pg30 | All about MASTANI, Chimaji, Nana Saheb Pg31 - Page 4

Boy Abhay. your posts always surprise me! I am in awe of this biopic that is refusing to deviate from its true track. I now need to rush to the blog ASAP!

And before I make a comment, I have a question. Tarabai's son is Shiva Raje, isn't he Shivaji II? Shahuji Maharaj should be Shivaji III in that case.The Chatrapati of Kolhapur that was established by Tarabai continues to this date and it is the rival Chatrapati lineage to the one in Satara that ended with Shahuji, with him being the fifth Chatrapati. So Shivaji II should be Shiva Raje, Tarabai's son, no?

@The.Lannister

Thanks for sharing these words of Shivaji. Somehow these words appear very very 'magical' ( for lack of a better word ) to me. With great precision he said those words. Sometimes, i think how is it even possible to make such a prophecy. Oriental writers have called him an incarnation of God and sometimes i wonder if that was really true.


@Mental_Manadhil

Thank you very much and i agree completely about the need to pay attention to empires which are conventionally not given attention. That is the ones far from Delhi.


@Garu and @Mac

Always nice to see your comments. Hope to have an interesting discussion here. I have found you in almost every forum i have gone. Great to have you here too. :D


@Rashmi

I have great expectations too. I have found something to watch after a long time. 20 - 22 minutes of daily episode of Peshwa Bajirao is something i would like to watch as a relaxation therapy. Just now finished watching episode 3 and it is even better than the first 2 episodes. And precap looks equally promising.

Great to know of the anecdote you shared. Post pictures if possible. It reminds of some pictures i received via a friend. The pictures were of the place where Kashi Bai was born and apparently also contained the house where she lived before marriage. Must be lying somewhere in the hard drive. Do share your detailed views.


@Kalgi

I am thankful to Harshu for "dragging" you (and many others) to this forum. Peshwa Bajirao is someone you (and we) should know about. He is a person who created an empire at a speed which was not equalled by any of his contemporaries. And this empire is important because the British took control of India not from the Mughals in 1857 but from the Marathas in 1818 after the Third Anglo Maratha War.


@Seema Ji

I never knew you are on IF too. Great to find you. :D


@Radhika

Thanks for the brief yet fantastic summing up of Peshwa's personality.


@Gotforever, @fatssrilanka, Nonie, Viji, Sarah, Mehak, Gokul, Meera, Payal
Thanks buddies!


@Shivani

I find you also in every forum, probably because i only go to forums on history related shows which happen to be your interest too. Great to see you here. Coming to topic.

Shahu Ji was Shivaji II .

Reason being simple : He was the second person in line to be born with that name. So he is automatically called Shivaji II. Son of Tara Bai was born after Shahu Ji and hence automatically qualifies to be called Shivaji III. This is what i think. And if we talk about historians then they also have adopted the same chronology in numbering (whatever may be there reasons for doing so). :D

I think you are figuring out the chronology by the order of their becoming the Chatrapati. And since the young son of Tara Bai became Chatrapati earlier than Shahu JI hence you are placing him earlier in the numbering. But remember that Shiva is merely their name. It is not related to the order in which they became the Chatrapati. Hence, Shahu Ji is Shivaji II.

Yes the line of Satara ended with demise of Shahu ji in 1749. It is said that this was a blessing in disguise because it resulted in prevention of any further clashes (as there was always a possibility of clash among the rivals claimants to be the Chatrapati).


@_goofycat_

I have checked the sources again. Last night i wrote that i was not sure about this. Now i have found more details.

Yesu Bai was actually "pretending" before Aurangzeb that she has no faith on Rajaram. This she did deliberately to confuse Aurangzeb and it was her effort to prevent herself from becoming a pawn in some of the sinister plans of Aurangzeb. After all, he was keeping all of them with courtesy in his camp only to use them later in some of his game plans.

But i was confused by reading another source which contained the conversation of Aurangzeb and Shahu JI.

Aurangzeb said - "Your father (Sambhaji) was killed on my orders but still you are very respectful towards me. Your uncle (Rajaram) always fight with me, will you go if i send you back to him ? "

Shahu replied - "My uncle always wanted the throne. He imprisoned my father (Sambhaji) and tried to take over the kingdom. When you took Raigad, he left us there and himself went to Ginjee. If you handover us back to him, he will again imprison us. So i will go after you defeat him."

Now, this conversation left me confused because this one is straight from Shahu Ji Maharaj Itihas Charitra. But the convo of Yesu Bai is also authentic and in fact more authentic. So, i personally believe that Shahu was also playing with Aurangzeb cleverly by trying to give him a false impression about his thoughts for Rajaram. Because, Rajaram as we know had tried to get Yesu Bai and Shahu JI freed from Mughal custody but he failed. If he was trying to get them freed, then why would he leave Yesu Bai and Shahu Ji at Raigad deliberately in 1689 ?

But still one thing remains in my mind. Please throw light on the claim made by Shahu Ji that - "His father Sambhaji was imprisoned by Rajaram and Rajaram wanted to take the kingdom." How much true / false is this. Was Shahu lying to Aurangzeb just to mislead him or Rajaram actually tried something like this (even if remotely).

{ In short, just like Balaji Vishwanath in our show was asking for himself NOT to be thrown from the cliff knowing that Aurangzeb would do exactly the same. Same thing these 2 people were also supposedly doing with Aurangzeb. Lol }


Coming to today's episode.

I did not find anything much writing about it as far as history part is considered. Tara Bai's son was coronated as i wrote in earlier post and probably they will show him inefficient to be the ruler, they gave some glimpses today of that child being incapable, i think.

This episode was even better than the first 2 episodes. The bar has been raised. This is sheer brilliance. Amazing performance. I have no words in my vocab to express. Glad to see the entry of Chima, Baji and Bhiu . All looked great in precap. :D

I don't know if it is only me, or you people also find the one liners and dialogues in this show extremely pulling.


Link for Last Update about Episode 1 and 2:
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139935431

Hi Abhay!

Hello Abhay😊

Hey Abhay . Thanks for the detailed analysis on all the three episodes. 

@TM, thanks for the informative reply.

I have read a lot on Shivaji and Sambhaji, but not much on Rajaram. But from what I have read, I can't recall anything about Rajaram trying to imprison Sambhaji and trying to get the throne for himself.

Rajaram (born in 1670) was very young at the time when Shivaji Maharaj died in 1680, so it doesn't seem possible that he will take a decision by himself that time. Sambhaji lived 9 years after that (died in 1689), and in those 9 years he was mostly on battlefields.

I quickly surfed through a biography of Sambhaji that I have after reading your post, but I could not find any such reference. So as you mentioned, it is possible that Shahu was also trying to create a false impression on Aurangzeb.

Originally posted by: history_geek

@The.Lannister

Thanks for sharing these words of Shivaji. Somehow these words appear very very 'magical' ( for lack of a better word ) to me. With great precision he said those words. Sometimes, i think how is it even possible to make such a prophecy. Oriental writers have called him an incarnation of God and sometimes i wonder if that was really true.

Edited by The.Lannister - 7 years ago

Originally posted by: _goofyCat_

@TM, thanks for the informative reply.

I have read a lot on Shivaji and Sambhaji, but not much on Rajaram. But from what I have read, I can't recall anything about Rajaram trying to imprison Sambhaji and trying to get the throne for himself.

Rajaram (born in 1670) was very young at the time when Shivaji Maharaj died in 1680, so it doesn't seem possible that he will take a decision by himself that time. Sambhaji lived 9 years after that (died in 1689), and in those 9 years he was mostly on battlefields.

I quickly surfed through a biography of Sambhaji that I have after reading your post, but I could not find any such reference. So as you mentioned, it is possible that Shahu was also trying to create a false impression on Aurangzeb.

Hi all,

I have to admit that i am thoroughly impressed by all the 5 episodes this week. I have written my views on 3 of the episodes. Episode 4 was about the introduction of kids. And today's episode too was about kids except the

(1) scene of Tara Bai where she makes up her mind to attack Ahmednagar* . And take away that fort in monsoon.

(2) Also, the plan to send Balaji Vishwanath to the envoy of Aurangzeb in Deccan - Qamruddin who was later also called the Nizam or the same person is also called Asif Jah (i have used the name Asif Jah once in my main post and also used Nizam alternatively).

(3) And in the precap we saw Bajirao's encounter with Nasir, who is the son of Qamruddin.


I got some time to think and then write today, unlike other days when i simply came here to make a reply for sake of it and rushed away quickly.


I have found great connection with the scenes in these 5 episodes which we have seen till now - with what happened in reality. I used to make such posts in JA forum earlier comparing the history part and the onscreen proceedings. Trying to do that here now.

So, here i go. In my posts, i will address Bajirao as Rau too.


First

Do we remember Balaji met a hermit while praying in the cave, and the hermit predicted that the son of Balaji would be a great warrior. I was wondering who this man is. In episode 4 while telling us about the recap, they made mention of this hermit named Brahma ; and then it struck me from where the makers have introduced him.

Now, this is not an invention. This is a real name. Brahma was a great mystic. He was found first by a cowherd doing penance in a cave at Konkan. That cowherd (i can not remember the name of that person) introduced Balaji to him. Balaji met him in 1698 (approx year) - 2 years before birth of Bajirao in 1700. Mostly, he used to reside in cave temples (like the setting where he met Balaji in episode 1 during the prediction) . Balaji became his disciple. He is said to have performed various miracles.

He was a great political personality of those times and he indulged in politics too, i mean his advice was sought after. After becoming Chatrapati, Shahu Ji called him to Satara. Infact, i noticed that there was a great coincidence. Wherever, Balaji went, this Brahma ji also went along with him (mere coincidence as he also used to keep changing his residence and this change matched with Balaji's residence).

There are references to this hermit in the Shahu biography (Marathi). And he lived till a very very old age. Rau and Chima were also his disciples and he exercised influence on both of them just like their father. So, we can can expect him to be present in the show for a long time.

He was alive, at least, till 1737 because we have a letter written by Chima to this hermit at that time. He informed the hermit that Rau has crossed Narmada and preparing to attack Nasir and some other details.

In fact, mostly Chima used to collect the information and intelligence from the spies and after careful study of those bundle of letters, processed these inputs and conveyed them to Rau. And lot of letters are written by Chima. So, i feel, they have moulded his character in the show like a sincere, serious and focused guy who always does all his work with great regard without any fail.

Also, in his letters Chima addresses Bajirao as something like " Tirth Rup" . It is a great display of respect. It means like a fatherly figure or someone whose mere presence is akin to "pilgrimage visit". Tirth means pilgrimage and Rup means form. And its not that he was flattering Baji. These honorific words for Baji have been used in the letters written to a 3rd person.



Second

Then there is another interesting tidbit about a person named Bhanji Kaka. He was the (illegitimate) son of Shahji (father of Shivaji) and had managed to get employment in the camp of Aurangzeb, and is reported to have "helped" Shahu Ji while he was in custody. It is not known to me what kind of help it was but it appears that through him Balaji Vishwanath was in contact with Shahu Ji even while he was under arrest.

Also, Aurangzeb made him a commander of 6000 when he was thinking to end his struggle with the Marathas, peacefully, during his last days. Bhanji Kaka was present when Shahu Ji was crowned the Chatrapati in Satara in 1708.

Why i am mentioning this is because it was shown to us that Balaji went into the camp of Aurangzeb to look out for details of Shahu Ji and was helped by an old man. But i could not hear his name properly and so i thought may be this particular event is inspired from Bhanji Kaka.


Third

Some of us are thinking that Tara Bai is ambitious and some are thinking otherwise. Got to know of what Tara Bai thought herself. Tara Bai, when Shahu ji was released from Mughal captivity, said - "Shivaji died in 1680. And he had asked that the kingdom will be inherited by his younger son Rajaram, not Sambhaji*. Sambhaji, instead, lost the kingdom and it was her husband Rajaram who built the Maratha dominions again from 1689 till his death in 1700. And from then till 1708, she was fighting the Mughal Empire and hence the present Maratha state is the creation of Rajaram and hence her son Shivaji should get the throne, because the kingdom was lost by Sambhaji and hence his son Shahu has no right to the throne. " This is from the Marathi Riyasat (Shahu, 1942).

* - Did he really say this ? I am too lazy to go and read again. Please provide the background.

BTW, no one heard Tara Bai's arguments because his husband Rajaram in 1689 while becoming Chatrapati had declared that he was holding the throne on behalf of his nephew Shahu ji. Also, the commanders all these years were fighting to secure release of Shahu Ji. And the masses were emotionally attached as they thought the eldest son was the rightful heir.

I don't think she was wrong as she toiled so hard to keep Maratha flag high against Aurangzeb. So she was right from her POV. But the other party was also right.


Fourth

Now here comes the flaw. Its not actually a flaw but a necessity. The makers have shown a grown up Baji, at least 12 years old i think. So year should be 1712. And Aurangzeb was dead in 1707. And by this time, in 1712, Balaji was an established figure and Shahu was also released in 1708 and should be Chatrapati right now.

But they have not shown it like this and its not their fault. It was a necessity to introduce grown up Baji soon. But they also had to show HOW Balaji rose to fame. So, Baji is grown up but the story of Balaji is continuing at the same pace.

For me this is fine, as i wanted them to show HOW Balaji rose to fame. And they are doing it. And we will surely get to know the struggle of Tara Bai too. And side by side they will show Baji learning and growing up under the instructions of his parents etc.

Overall, this is not a flaw but a necessity. So, with this thought in mind let us go back to early 1700s considering the fact that Aurangzeb is alive and Tarabai is still ruling.

We saw TaraBai giving orders for attacking the fort of Ahmednagar. That fort was attacked sometime in 1705-6 and it was near this only Aurangzeb was staying in his camp. Though, accounts say that with great difficulty Marathas were repulsed. But i won't be surprised to see the makers showing Marathas winning here 'coz often in history accounts (after reading for at least 4 years continuously) i have noticed that what is win for one side may be mentioned as defeat in the accounts of another side. This i noted during Mughal accounts which never mentioned any victory of Maharana Pratap (we know at the end of his life except Chittor Fort he had won everything back but Mughal accounts never mentioned any victory of his).

Coming back. Monsoons were the best time to attack the enemy as Tara Bai said coz Mughal forces were used to fighting in open fields in plains. The tough Deccan terrain, dense jungles, and on top of that, heavy rains (those days it used to rain for months continuously) added to their misery.


Response to comments :


@Shagun and Kuki (?)
Good to see you too. Slowly the old members of JA are arriving here. I'll share till i can carry on. Already, i am making posts rarely. Let's see. :)


@Viji
Thanks. :)


@_goofyCat_ and @luvuyuvi
Thanks for your insights. I can understand the situation better now. So, Rajaram was always a well wisher, from what i am getting from your comments. Please do share more about them, when ever you like or if some thing like that comes in the episodes or in our discussion. In fact, to all here, please enrich us with your readings. :D


@The.Lannister
Great words. Totally in agreement. I am already making the index on page. Although this entire thread, it seems, is going to get piled up by historic facts going by the present discussion which we all are having, but i am making index of my responses. :)


BTW, folks, please sign your comments with your names (only if it is alright) , henceforth, for those whose ID does not depict their name, so that i can address you as such. I know some but not all of you.


Episode

All the siblings are so great to watch. It is a treat. And even the friends of Rau are equally funny. The casting is really perfect. I also noticed that despite showing this comedy they have not deviated from the actual story.

We get scenes about politics / Tara Bai at regular intervals. We also get the regular scenes of Balaji and Radha Bai regarding upbringing of Baji and also we saw how Balaji was worried about preparations to be made for Qamruddin.

It is very balanced and nothing is going hayware. So precise. The precap has shown Baji and Nasir come face to face. Nasir, in his press launch interview has said that he has made sure the audience hates him (Lol. Such is the effort he has made to play his role which is obviously negative).

Let us hope they keep the balance and stay focused on Baji along with showing all the things happening in the background. This week was superb in my opinion.


Link to last update on Episode 3:
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139959389

Link to Index of my responses :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139854215

Edited by history_geek - 7 years ago