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sherlock

@sherlock

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

This quest is most likely to remain open-ended till one of the two things happen.

1. You get bhakti in the lotus feet of Lord SitaRam (coz once that happen, all doubts melt away automatically)

2. You find a "Shotriya Brahmneesth BhagvadBhakt" ready to clarify all your doubts (but then, finding such a person in today's world is more difficult that finding needle in the haystack)

Note that I'm not discouraging you in anyway. There is no problem if doubts persist in your mind, nor there's any problem in discussing divine play endlessly. But thinking that all the doubts about each and every incident of the divine play needs to be resolved to our satisfaction here and now, (which means they need to be resolved at the level of our present intellect and understanding, which then depends upon our current position on the path of dharma, if we are on the path of dharma in the first place, that is).

Reminds me of what my idol, my hero, The Joker said to Batman in "The thin white duke of death". The Joker told Bats there, "what gets me laughing every time is your bone deep conviction that somehow, all of this has to make sense."

anyways, the first thing is, why we so look forward to making perfect sense of only our chosen incidents from the divine play? Talking of Ramayan, we have flying monkeys, talking bears, talking mountains!!! A Sanskrit speaking vulture who dies while trying to protect his human daughter-in-law, ten headed demon, three headed demons, demons with face of foxes and donkeys, clouds showering warm blood instead of raindrops, etc. Yet only certain incidents catch out attention. Naturally because those incidents of our choosing help us view God as human like us, so that's perfectly ok. But even when viewed as human, many actions of the Lord appear super human during divine play. Lord Krishna married 16, 108 times, then had 10 kids from each wife, then smilingly watched each and every of his kid kill each other in Prabhas, stared finishing off evil when He was 6 days old, etc. Very few people are exercised about all this, yet 105 out of 100 persons have an opinion about "Raas Leela."

Talking about this incident under discussion, I asked you in my previous post (the one you found "unsatisfactory")😆 to look up about meaning of being a king, gave you some places to look at. If you would have taken that trouble, would not have resolved your doubts, but would have given you points to ponder.

Shri Raam decided what is the right thing for him to do in a particular case as a "Dharmaarudh" King. Maybe he erred in his judgement, OK. But the one and only person best placed to decide whether he committed a "grave injustice" on his wife, is Maa Janaki. And what is her opinion about her husband? Again, I'll have to say, read the Ramayan from start to finish and find out.

Then, there's the point about rationale behind any divine play. (Many more points can be discussed, but then I can't type that much, so let's take just one).

For the all powerful and all capable personality whose wish is the only reality, to take some form and appear "doing things" there needs to be some rationale. It certainly cannot be the kiddish ones like "HE came to kill invincible Raavan or kansa or this immortal guy or that immortal fellow." The reason is, what bahkts call the "Prem Siddhant" that Lord dances to each and every tune of those who love Him. Its not just devotees of the Lord saying this, Lord Himself announces, "I'm a slave of my devotees." ("Aham Bhakt Paradheenam.") thus, only and ONLY for his bhakts, He appears before them, live like them, among them, so on. "Prem-ras Siddhant" is quite lengthy to elaborate actually.

If that the rationale behind divine play, what is the Supreme Lord telling his devotees in this incident under discussion? Maybe something as profound as what He said in Bhagvad Gita, "Extremely subtle are the nuances of dharma." Thus, "I tried to decide my dharma as a King, giving first priority to the citizens, last to my family, thought that even if I fail in my dharma as a husband, I'll succeed as a King. But maybe I failed in both."

something as useful to us as what a saint once told me. He said, "Who can be more benevolent than my Ramji? To warn us humans not to base our decisions on the opinions of petty minded gossip mongers, and to remind us that Maa Sita's greatness is beyond comprehension even for the likes of Brahma, Ramji has taken upon himself eternal criticism. Without doubt, there's no one more benevolent than Him."

Ok, enough typing for the day. And this post was not meant to clear your doubts, just like my previous post was not meant for that purpose, primarily because I'm not qualified to clear anyone's doubts, I know so little!!! 😆😆

So let your quest continue. Bye.

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

@ Sherlock

Once again I m very grateful that u decided to grace the forum with ur views.. n I got to say, beneath all that mockery n sarcasm lies a vast pool of knowledge , makes perfect sense since joker from batman is ur hero!.. yes, sometimes (actually most of the times) there r very valuable lessons n philosophies for life to b learned from an antagonist of a story..so yes, I agree with u on that front!..

As for my unreasonable need to make sense of 'minute incidents' of an epic where there r talking mountains , sea n animals, there is something I would like to share, what do u think r the purposes of such epics n legends?.. isn't it to give moral teachings for us mortal souls to give something valuable to hold on to, to help steer us through this unpredictable life..OK now I must request u to forgive my lack of reading habits in this context bcoz the only literary piece that I ever bothered to read was ..err..kind of embarrassed to say..but its Harry Potter..😳😆.. its the only series of novel that ever bothered to read ( although I have just started to read the hobbit now).. n yes, there r ghosts, goblins, fairies, magic, broomsticks n what not in the series... but once u r through with the books, such aspects of the story only take side role of making the read even more interesting ..but what really matters in the end is the moral lessons with regards to friendship, love n the ultimate theme of victory of good over the evil..n in the end only the "minute incidents" related to the previously mentioned moral values is what lingers n stays in one's mind..

Now, coming back to Ramayana n my doubts over lord Rama's actions, yes , u did point out very crisp n clear sources for me to read n get my doubts cleared..n m as guilty as charged by u..m sorry sir I dint read all of it..but if u had read my previous reply to ur previous post in this context , u ll know exactly y I dint read those texts just yet..n even in ur latest post I dont c anything more added to the 'king's dharma' as was already 'guessed' by me in the previous post in this context.. from ur replies n my views of the king's dharma..I have arrived at the conclusion that my 'guess' is as good as it gets.. a king or a queen a.k.a. a person in the position of power n authority often has to take tough decisions for the welfare of his subjects n when such a time comes he must always give priority to his praja n not get influenced by his personal life..however, if u had read my subsequent posts in this forum u would have come to know as to exactly y I think lord rama failed as a king, as a husband, n as a father miserably in this context..if u still feel the need for me to explain more clearly than I had done already , I ll do it happily in my next post for u..

Since the "king's dharma" keeps popping up regularly, there is one more thing that I would like to point out..the guidelines for such dharma somehow seems very relevant to current situation..I m talking about our framework of our current laws..our judiciary system is plagued by loop holes in the existing laws n people usually committing crimes do take advantage of such loopholes to get away with their crimes..n for this reason itself the law makers have to amend the laws time n over again when such instances of taking advantage of loophole r brought in the fore front..now getting back to the dharma guidelines, they r after all written guidelines, aren't they?.. so there is a huge probability that practicality of such guidelines could b questioned just like the present framework of law ( although the current framework of law n constitution is the copy paste of Victorian constitution but I think the comparison still applies)

Again about the king's dharma.. I fail to understand what made lord rama think separating from sita could lead to the well fare of his citizens?.. if any dharma states that allowing a praja to continue with their evil ways n letting them live in the dark could lead to their welfare, then such a dharma needs to b thrown out of the window!.. in fact by separating from sita , rama not only did injustice to his wife but also to his subjects n unborn twins..as a king , he should have taken good moral standing by standing by his wife n therefore making his praja understand their mistakes.. n thereby eventually leading them to live a better life with better perspective.. instead he just ignored n sided with their mistakes finally leading to the ultimate tragedy..

Again, y it matters so much for me?.. bcoz as an Indian Hindu an epic hero like Rama is equivalent to what a superman or a captain america could b to an American.. I just felt really bad the way Rama was emasculated towards the end ( all in the name of king's dharma) just like any other Shakespearean hero with a major tragic flaw( he is after all a human incarnation of god but still it was pretty harsh).. n as for y this perticular incident bothers me so much, its bcoz such epics influence our lives a lot even in the modern society..in modern context , lord rama demanding an agni pareeksha from devi sita could b equated to 's**t shaming' wherein unreasonable expectations r put on women by the society in general..so yes it matters a lot!..so in a nut shell, its not about just Devi Sita anymore, she may have forgiven her husband but the thing is whatever happens in such epics n the after effects of it, echoes through ages..the very fact that u n I r discussing it in the present age is a testimony to that fact!!

Finally, u repeatedly point out how rama is always so open in accepting his mistakes..u even mentioned something about him accepting his failure as a husband as well as , as a king in double quotation, if that is the case, then this whole question or 'quest' has already been put to rest by lord Rama himself!.. now this question is only meant for those who still believe that his actions were totally justified when he himself doesn't!!..

Edited by Akash005 - 10 years ago

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sherlock

@sherlock

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

You have written something in your post which compels me to type again, and that's not to my liking, 😆 because it's too hectic here today.

But I think you're not reading my previous post right. Where have I mocked anybody? Both at the start and end of my previous post, I encouraged you to keep trying to get your doubts about divine play clarified! Only pointed out that until one of those two conditions are met, don't expect all your doubts to get cleared. Yes, I'm not the person capable of clarifying all the doubts because I know very little, and that was no sarcasm, merely stating facts. I do know a little about Sanatan Dharma but that doesn't make me an expert. In fact, anybody who thinks that concepts of Sanatan Dharma are easy to understand and then to tell to others, is kidding himself. They are not that easy to understand and grasp, I'm saying from personal experience.

I said that people have this tendency to pick only certain incidents from divine play and then there's endless discussions on that, but I also stated that, "incidents of our choosing help us view God as human like us, so that's perfectly ok."!!

Trust me on this, but whatever I type on IF, anywhere on IF, I type without thinking as to what I'm saying, in fact most of the time not even reading, what I've typed. My tragedy is that I always find myself in the middle of a severe time crunch. So maybe some portions of my previous post have been interpreted by you in an unintended sense.

Look, I'll again type really fast for next fifteen minutes, and will then post whatever I manage in that time, and will be gone, so I just hope you'll make proper sense of that.

Originally posted by: Akash005

As for my unreasonable need to make sense of 'minute incidents' of an epic where there r talking mountains , sea n animals, there is something I would like to share, what do u think r the purposes of such epics n legends?.. isn't it to give moral teachings for us mortal souls to give something valuable to hold on to, to help steer us through this unpredictable life..

First thing, where have I called your questions unreasonable'?

Secondly, yes, these epics are to give moral teachings. So why not take the relevant lessons from this incident too? What's stopping us from doing that? However, why take only "Taamsic" lessons all the time, that Shri Raam as a knower of dharma still abandoned his wife and therefore set a bad precedent for all times to come??? This taamsic lesson reflects the Tamogun in our astral body, and not what is supposed to be the takeaway from this part of the epic. That we always think negatively is our problem, one we need to work upon, not that of Maharishi Valmiki.

If Ramayan records Sitaji's abandonement by Shri Rama, it also records the unimaginable love of Shri Raam for Sitaji. Why we never spare a sympathetic thought to His mental torment then, His years and years of torturous loneliness without His beloved Sita?? Maa janaki completed her part in the divine play and was gone, Shri Raam remained here as a King for 11,000 years, all alone all those years. All because at one point of time, he decided (maybe a wrong decision) that for Him as a king the right thing to do is to send the Queen of Ayodhya away. (Someone said, Raam never abandoned His beloved Sita, King of Ayodhya sent Queen of Ayodhya away, and OK, for you, it's a wrong decision, but then the King suffered enormously for that).

But we never seem to sympathise with this forever lonely man, we never try to take any positive lesson from his thousand years long torment, we never derive any positive message for all humans from this, all we like doing is to prove how utterly bad a husband Shri Raam is. As I said, this unidirectional thinking is more a result of out Taamsic astral body, and not at all a result of what message Maharaishi Valmiki wanted to give us thorugh his epic.

For all the devotees of Lord SitaRam, in any divine play, the basic reason for its happening is "Prem-Ras Siddhant" which I stated previously. So my Supreme Lord is here among us and living like a human among us, not because he needs to, but because His love for His kids, i.e. us, compels Him to. So every action of His divine play is guided by love.

So I'll take the lesson, that through this incident, Lord tells us through His ACTIONS what he told us in Bhagvad Gita through His words, "extremely difficult to decipher Dharma." And even the most knowledgeable in the concepts of dharma, and who more knowledgeable that Shri Raam, might go wrong at some point or the other. That's a good lesson for us mortals living in a complex world, to draw, don't you think. Also, once you carry out a wrong act, and unfavouable result is guaranteed sooner or later. This lesson too I draw from this incident. Again, a very good lesson for all of us, I'm sure you agree.

The only subtlety here is, while the devotees like me will conclude that our Lord Shri Raam, is so so infinitely benevolent that He knowlingly endures such torments for us, so that we may draw the right lessons. Others, for whom Ramayan's merely an epic authored by Valmiki, will think that Valmiki's "hero" turned into "just like any other Shakespearean hero with a major tragic flaw" as you stated, but even these people can draw the right lessons easily, no one's stopping them, provided they really wish to draw some good life lessons from Ramayan, and not merely to use this or that incident to prove to the devotees how bad Shri Raam is, and why He is not fit to be worshipped. That they use something as beautiful as Ramayan not to draw beautiful and helpful lessons at each and every step but to use it as a stick to beat the devotees with, is, to repeat again, their misfortune arising from their Taamsic astral body, and can't be helped.

Finally, u repeatedly point out how rama is always so open in accepting his mistakes..u even mentioned something about him accepting his failure as a husband as well as , as a king in double quotation,

Re-read my post. The sentence you are talking about begins with "maybe", so clearly, I was thinking aloud there. Shri Raam never stated which of His actions were right and which were wrong. As I said, MAYBE this is what he is telling us through His actions in this case.

Ok, time up. Before I go, MOST IMPORTANT THING. Yeah, I almost worship The Joker. 😆

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

@ Sherlock

First of all, can I just tell u how happy it makes me that u decided to post again..agreed, " its not to ur liking" , however, ur recent post was the most enlightening for me as compared to ur other posts combined bcoz I personally found it much more straight forward , clear, crisp n precise as compared to ur other posts..I m glad even more so bcoz u bid a formal farewell to me in ur earlier " continue with ur quest.bye" n yet u come back for another final word..😆😃 Whatever it was in my earlier post that prompted u to post again, m glad it did..n I thank you from the bottom of my heart for clearing things out further..now just to b sure that there r no misinterpretations this time , I read ur post twice n arrived at the following conclusions-

1. It is the taamsic aspect of our nature that prompts us to look for "bad things" in an epic when there r numerous "good things" in an epic that could b used very well for our well being.

2. People often crucify sri ram for his actions towards the end of the epic but often forget about his own "sacrifices" when in fact they were tremendous.

3.lord Rama "may" have been wrong in his actions n he paid for it just like any other mortal soul.

If there is again something wrong with my above "interpretations" please feel free correct me again..n I promise I won't judge..lol..bcoz as has been proved time n again, m bound to make misinterpretations owing to my pea size "taamsic" brain..so if u post again, if anybody is judged for that, it would b me!.. n let me tell u, I really dont mind!.. as long as streams of pure knowledge keeps pouring in from people like u, I wouldn't mind even if m labelled naive, idiotic, pathetic or whatever ..coz it ll b totally worth it!.. so please kind sir feel free to post again n again !.. n I ll follow up with it again n again !!

The reason that I find ur recent post most enlightening so far is bcoz of point no.3 .. I ll let u know exactly y but b4 that I ll discuss about point no. 1 n 2 of the conclusions first..

@point no.1 of my conclusion.. I may have misinterpreted again..I ll leave that for u to decide at the end of the post..but I beg to differ..labelling a person "taamsic" just bcoz he sees both sides of the coin would b wrong..let me tell u y..these epics r a huge part of our religion.. they r our assets !.. we teach the younger generation to take good things out of it n follow in their life..n a religion forms a basic framework of a person's code of conduct in his practical life..he derives his strength of character from his religion..n this applies to all religions.. bcoz that is the essense n purpose of a religion..n that is y I sometimes feel bad for atheist people.. I wonder how they lead their lives without any kind of moral support..hmm..but that's a different issue altogether.. coming back to my original point, if u demand that a person must only look for good things in his religion n completely ignore bad things in his religion bcoz doing that would make him a taamsic person, then I must say this a very very sad n limited way to lead one's life..n u know what , if this sort of mentality was harboured by everyone in the human society, then I can say with some confidence that there would never have been any scientific inventions, discoveries n progress..with that kind of limited thinking, all of us would probably still b in the stone age..bcoz such a mentality will never allow a person to think unconventionally n always demand to follow a set pattern, hence, restricting freedom n progress.. but now that u have brought it up, a lot of things have started making sense ..as in y scientists r always labelled atheist n y major inventions n discoveries in past faced a lot of flak from religious groups..it is bcoz of this restricted thinking..having said that, I just want to point out one more fact m not one of those people who take the freedom of speech in a literal sense stupidly n create problems n neither m I among people who support creation of deadly biological weapons bcoz of my "unrestricted" thinking..I mean I know where to draw lines n so should people in general..

In ur previous post u talked about how 105 people out of 100 have an opinion about Krishna's raasleela when he has been fighting demons since his infancy period..u probably label it as "taamsic" mentality..I dont..I ll label it as a natural curiosity.. when someone is expected to follow his religion that comes with such stories , its only but natural that youngsters will come up questions like " Krishna kare toh raasleela, aur hum kare toh character dheela?!".. lol..taamsic mentality?.. may b yes..bcoz at that age taamsic aspect in a young person seems to b generally high..but is there anything wrong with it?.. definitely no!.. what's required in such cases is finding a guru who would provide a much intellectual interpretation of such things to the youngsters to ensure that they dont stray away from righteous path..

I also dont agree that since Sita dint have anything against her husband ( or so what people belive n say) , we should also just forget it..bcoz as explained in my earlier post, its not just about sita anymore bcoz such epics echoes through ages n have a lot of influence on modern society where people follow this religion..so in a way lord Rama is answerable to all of us since we worship n follow him for all the good things that he did himself n taught us..as was rightfully pointed out by u that god is actually enslaved by his devotee n vice versa ( OK I added the vice versa part bcoz it makes sense to me)

@ point no. 2 of my conclusion, really ??.. bcoz I always thought it was other way round.. until b4 I entered this forum I always thought that people always support sri rama unconditionally.. in fact in my home, my mother had forbidden to speak of such things bcoz she belivs that questioning a god is not a suitable act for mere mortals like us..n we should know our place..so this forum was like the ideal platform 4 me to get my doubts cleared. .n m just trying to make most out it while I can by interacting with people like u..OK now this may sound a bit cheesy, but I think god himself gave me an opportunity bcoz he was aware of my plight with my religion n beliefs..lol..anyways, my point is if sri ram's sufferings weren't considered by people, we wouldn't even bother worshipping him, would we?.. it is only bcoz we understand his pain n sacrifice that we worship him..in fact I believe the opposite is true.. 'the injustice' is always hush-hush..

@ point no. 3 of my conclusion.. BRAVO!! FINALLY!!.. after all the beating around the bush with 'taamsic prakriti' , 'king's dharma' n what not...finally something concrete !!!.. this point makes sense more than any others combined!.. u c , the way I c it now is as follows.. Sri Rama after all was a human incarnation of god..n just like any other human, he made a mistake n paid for it!.. its such a powerful statement!.. yes even if someone like sri rama makes a mistake, he will b judged for it n will pay for it no matter..he could have excused himself saying he is a god but he didn't n accepted his punishment.. the meaning of this act is two fold - always stand by what u feel is right n do not hesitate n if u commit a mistake do not b afraid to face the consequences bcoz prayaschit is the only way to liberation!!.. u c now, that works well for me..u have further eased my doubts TREMENDOUSLY!! N that too for a question that I thought I would never find a proper answer!!.. so THANK YOU THANK YOU SO VERY VERY MUCH for this!!.. whether it was done intentionally or unintentionally on ur part , m not sure, may b its another misinterpretation on my part,I dunno, but it works for me!!.. so, yay!!.. m happy!!.. it reaffirmed my faith that behind every action of a god there is a supreme reason n something to b learned from!!.. now I can go back 2 loving my god in peace n it wouldn't have been possible without ur help!.. I dunno know u, I have never met u, but owe u big one!.. u have no idea how much u helped me intentionally or unintentionally.. thanks mate !!

N yeah joker rocks!!.. although personally I tend to lean more towards batman !!.. no issues though..lol..

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: sherlock

1]. But I think you're not reading my previous post right. Where have I mocked anybody? Both at the start and end of my previous post, I encouraged you to keep trying to get your doubts about divine play clarified!

I said that people have this tendency to pick only certain incidents from divine play and then there's endless discussions on that, but I also stated that, "incidents of our choosing help us view God as human like us, so that's perfectly ok."!!

OK this post is purely meant for clearing ur doubts about my posts with regards to the above quoted 3 instances..

@ 1. Yes u definitely encouraged me to continue with my'quest' at the start n end of ur post but leaving out the middle part was very smart.👏.. yes people have the tendency to pick up relevant instances from epics that makes much sense to them living in a modern society as was explained by me in my last two posts with reason..n I never said u said anything otherwise.. n as for mockery, hmm..let's just leave it..I dont wanna talk abt that n more importantly I dont mind it !

@ 2. When did I ever say u called my questions'unreasonable'?.. it was a term used by me, for me..umm..well may b it was a play on the word..but that's only bcoz two people can play this game..
O boy!.. 'misinterpretations' is definitely a two way street..isn't it?.. lol..
@ 3. Now there!.. that seems a fair enough accusation.. but that's probably bcoz of my lack of knowledge of religious texts n unfamiliarity with ur way of talking..when u used double quotation marks, I took it as the Lord's word from religious text without properly reading it..so yes, I ll give u that..that was my bad..oopsie..

But any ways, its all a case of water under the bridge now..so peace out! 😊

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Akasha

Next time, please shorten your posts.😆

Its difficult to go through.😆

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt
Akasha
Next time, please shorten your posts.😆
Its difficult to go through.😆

Perfectly agreed!.. I try, but I suppose I dont have the talent for it!.. its EXHAUSTING for me to type as well..😭..sorry for the inconvenience caused due to it!..

U c , I cannot even apologize in short!😆.. OK now m stopping..🥱

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

😭Even my smartphone seems exhausted!.. it keeps on crashing due to low RAM memory n is over heated !😕

I m unable to load full pages of the forum..sometimes it loads half , sometimes its blank n if m lucky full page is loaded..so I had to try really hard to b able to read Sherlock's comments..but it was worth the efforts of course ..

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Akash005
😭Even my smartphone seems exhausted!.. it keeps on crashing due to low RAM memory n is over heated !😕
I m unable to load full pages of the forum..sometimes it loads half , sometimes its blank n if m lucky full page is loaded..so I had to try really hard to b able to read Sherlock's comments..but it was worth the efforts of course ..

Why don't you use a PC?

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983175

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt
Why don't you use a PC?

Its hard to carry around my lap top wherever I go.. n I log in 2 check posts n post replies at odd timings.. my smart phone allows me to do that.. although, its taking a heavy toll on it..

N also I wanted to enquire wen exactly will I b granted the power to "like" a post?.. u said turning a grobie will enable it..I turned groubie yesterday it self, still unable to hit like for a post..is it just technical malfunction of my smartphone or something else?

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