Mahabharata Related Discussions - Page 8

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Ok, but how does that explain Bheeshma's loyalty towards Dhritarashtra, and what he wanted?  Logically, if the Hastinapur throne was empty, Bheeshma should have been free to make his judgement calls.  In other words, if he thought that Duryodhan was evil, he should have felt free to join the Pandavas in the war.

Okay, someone else's turn to dig - can anyone pinpoint the exact vows Bheeshma ever made wrt the Hastinapur throne, aside from his Brahmachari vow to Satyavati's father?  Who/what exactly did he swear allegance to, that resulted in him having to fight for the side that he abhorred?

PS: citation of serials, such as BRC, is not allowed here
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
From the SOC thread

Originally posted by: varaali

Correct 👏.  All the other astras were used by Arjuna, while the Shakti was used by Karna.

I remember reading that Sudakshina was killed by Arjuna using the  Mahendra-Astra. Since I was relying on my memory while framing the question, I may have been wrong. Will be happy to be corrected.

I think Bhagadutta was handicapped  enough by his age. It is said that his forehead was so wrinkled that he had to tie a silken kerchief to prevent them from falling over his eyes. This was the disadvantage that Arjuna siezed. Arjuna, with a well aimed shaft, cut the kerchief which caused the folds on the kings forehead to fall over his eyes and he could not see anything in front of him. Arjuna then killed with an arrow which pierced his chest. 


I've read this account, but as usual, doing my periodic analysis of Bhagadatta, Narakasura, Krishna & Arjun somehow makes this 'aged' problem of Bhagadatta seem fallacious.  I'll use both MB and SB for this analysis.

For starters, let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that Krishna & Arjun were approximately the same age.  Since Krishna was b/w Bhima & Arjun age wise, this is a somewhat valid approximation.

Now, when is Bhagadatta first mentioned in SB?  It was following the killing of Narakasura.  Following his death, Bhoomi Devi brought Bhagadatta to him, and took refuge in him.  Krishna installed Bhagadatta on his father's throne, and asked him to return everything that his father had ransacked - Aditi's earrings, Varuna's umbrella, Indra's elephants and so on.  And of course, the 16,100 concubines of Narakasura.

In that description, Bhagadatta was described as young, a boy, who was brought to Krishna's refuge.  He certainly was not the same age as Krishna.  Krishna apparently gave him the Vaishnav astra (not narrated in SB, but narrated in MB in the 12th day of the war, in Drona Parva), so obviously, Bhagadatta was much younger to Krishna.

Consequently, it would turn out that he'd be much younger to Arjun as well.  Yet, he had to keep his eyes open w/ his handkerchief, while Arjun had no such problems.  The age of the Pandavas & Krishna were probably in their 60s (Dronacharya's age was 85), and so Bhagadatta would have been in his 50s or 60s.  And yet, the description of him is that of someone who was probably in his 90s, if not older.

Somehow, it's just not adding up.
Edited by .Vrish. - 11 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Two things have always struck me about the Kurukshetra war:
  • The overwhelming majority of warriors on the Pandava side were slain by either Drona or Ashwatthama.  Other warriors hardly killed anybody.  Yeah, Karna killed Ghatotkacha, Shrutakarna killed Abhimanyu, Alambusha killed Iravana, Shalya killed Uttar, Bheeshma killed Sveta & Virata's brother Satanika, and Bhurishrava killing Satyaki's 10 sons and Duryodhan killing Chekitan, but other than that, every major Pandava warrior who was killed in that war died @ the hands of either Drona or Ashwatthama
  • On the other end of things, all the killing of Kaurava warriors were done by Bhima & Arjun.  The notable exceptions here - Abhimanyu killing a few warriors including Laxman and Brihadbala, Satyaki killing Bhurishrava and Somadatta, Dhrishtadyumna killing Drona, Yudhisthir killing Shalya and Sahadev killing Shakuni.  Other than that, any other major Kaurava warrior you name, and chances are that either Bhima or Arjun killed them.
For such a major war, this seems mighty strange.  In the Ramayan war, all the warriors - Rama, Lakshman, Hanuman, Sugreev, Angad, Nala, Neela and so on had major rakshasha scalps to their credit.  In this war, Bhima & Arjun couldn't be everywhere, but the bulk of the killings were done by them.  On the Kaurava side, take out Drona & Ashwatthama, & the Pandava army would have largely been intact.

Is there any good explanation as to why 4 warriors - Drona, Ashwatthama, Arjun and Bhima - got to do the bulk of the killing in this war?
Kal El thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I have a new question about Draupadi.


When it was decided that she should marry all the 5 Pandavas, a few precedents supporting polyandry were cited in that context.  Does anyone recall who they were, and what the background stories were regarding them?



I wrote about this some years ago in the 9X Mahabharata serial forum and just today mentioned it in a post in the DKDM forum. It seems the creatives took some inspiration from one of those background stories for their current Indra track.

Here is my old post from the 9X forum:

[quote=Kal El]
It seems to me that the arguments and justifications behind Draupadi's polyandry are never mentioned completely by anyone. Most people leave out a lot of elements. There was a question somewhere about the justifications behind the polyandry and only a truncated answer was provided. Let me try and add some more detail. 😊


It all started with Kunti's order to divide the alms equally amongst the brothers as we all know. When she saw it was actually a woman she asked Yudhisthir to settle the issue: how would they prevent Draupadi from committing a major sin while also ensuring that her words don't become false?

Yudhisthir said Arjun should marry Draupadi since he had won the swayamvar competition but Arjun objected saying that it would be inappropriate for him to marry before Yudhisthir or Bhima (strangely, Hidimba is never mentioned).

Here it is explicitly stated that all 5 of the brothers had fallen in love with Draupadi. Yudhisthir understood what was happening and was afraid of a division amongst the brothers. Hence he decided that they would all marry Draupadi.

After this of course, the matter reached Drupad's court as we know. Let's skip over the introductory details between Drupad and the Pandavas and go to the marriage issue directly. Drupad, shocked at the polyandrous proposition, questions Yudhisthir who offers a number of arguments. The first argument is of course the most famous one: that it had been ordered by their mother whom they cannot disobey. Yudhisthir then says that he is unmarried and so is Bhima (again, no mention of Hidimba). He says that it is their rule that they always share equally whatever prize they win. Hence they will all share Draupadi.

Drupad, still not convinced, says that while it is the norm for men to take many wives how can a woman take multiple husbands? It is here that Yudhisthir provides his second and very enigmatic argument. He says that dharma or morality is a subtle issue. It is not always possible to know how dharma plays out (note that he is being unusually vague in this argument). His heart says this is the right choice and he has never entertained any sin in his heart. Therefore this should be the correct path. He also made a most interesting statement: that it would be best to follow the ways of their ancestors.

I have bolded above the most enigmatic statement made by Yudhisthir on this topic: that they should follow the ways of their ancestors. This line is very curious. Scholars have debated on exactly what he meant. Some have theorized that he is referring to their early life in the Himalayas (before Pandu died) where they may have come into contact with a branch of Kurus who had probably settled in that region. It is a fact that polyandry has been practised in the Himalayan regions and it is still practiced in some places over there even today. Perhaps Yudhisthir was referring to the "ways" of their northern ancestors. It is a matter of debate.

The matter does not end here. Ved Vyas makes his entry here and the matter is laid before him. Yudhisthir then places his third argument: he says that he has read in the puranas that a rishi's daughter called Jatila, from rishi Gautam's lineage, had married seven rishis. Yet she was still known as one of the most chaste women. He had also read about another woman, born from a tree and fathered by a rishi, being married to 10 rishi brothers and still being glorified as chaste/virtuous. So how can their marrying Draupadi be wrong especially since it was commanded so by their mother?

Yudhisthir's second and third arguments are usually overlooked in discussions. 😊

Finally, when it comes to Ved Vyas, people mention the story of Shiva's boon but overlook another story that he described. Let me throw light on it.

Long ago, the devas had arranged a great yajna in the Naimishi forest near the confluence of Bhagirathi and Gomti rivers. Lord Yama was performing the sacrifice of animals in that yajna. Because Yama was busy there, death had vanished from earth. No human being was dying and the world became overpopulated. The devas became worried that the humans had seemingly become immortal and there was no longer any distinction between devas and humans. They went to Brahma for a solution. He said that things would resume their normal course once the yajna was over and Yama returned to his duties.

The devas then went back to the yajna. There, Indra observed a golden lotus floating along the river. Curious, he followed the lotus to the Himalayas. There he saw a woman bathing in the river. She was continously weeping and her tears were transforming into golden lotuses. He asked her what was the matter. She said that to find out, he must follow her and see for himself. Indra did so and she led him to one of the mountain peaks where he saw a couple on a throne playing dice. Indra introduced himself as the lord of the universe but they paid no attention. This angered Indra and he again said that he was lord of the universe. Of course, the couple were none other than Lord Shiva and Parvati. Shiva paralyzed Indra with a look and continued the game of dice. Once the game was finished, Shiva commanded the woman to bring Indra to him so that he may crush his arrogance. The moment that woman touched Indra he fell down. Shiva told him to remove a large stone and enter the cave where there were four other men resembling Indra and also in a pathetic state. Indra went inside, tried to placate Shiva and asked him about the other men.  As it turns out, those men were Indras from previous kalpas and they had also insulted Shiva out of arrogance. Hence Shiva commanded them all to be born on earth and carry out great deeds so that they may regain the status of Indra which they had lost due to arrogance. The four previous Indras immediately agreed and requested that they should be fathered by Vayu, Yama/Dharma and the Ashwinis so that they will be able to use both human and divine means in their battles on earth and thus ensure that they regain the status of Indra.

The current Indra proposed that, instead of going himself, he would send a portion of himself to earth.

Shiva, out of kindness, granted their wishes and also commanded that the woman who had led Indra to him would be the common wife of the 5 Indras on earth. Vyas says that that woman was the goddess Sri.

The rest is of course, history: the 5 Indras were reborn as the Pandavas (Arjun being the partial incarnation of the current Indra) and the goddess Sri became Draupadi.

Vyas then granted Drupad temporary divine sight by which he was able to see the Pandavas and Draupadi in their original divine form.

After this Vyas  also described the story of Draupadi being a rishi's daugher in her previous birth who received the boon of 5 husbands from Shiva. This story is the one usually mentioned in discussions and has already been posted earlier.

And that's it. These are all the arguments and justifications provided regarding Draupadi's polyandrous marriage. It was only after all this that Drupad gave his consent. 😃[/quote]

Note: in that last story the rishi's daughter got that boon because in her excitement  she repeated the request five times and Shiva therefore blessed her to have five husbands in a subsequent life.
Edited by Kal El - 11 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Shivang

From the quiz thread, we had 

You mean Drona -> Ashwathama -> Rudra -> Parvati -> Ganga -> Ganga -> Bheeshma was the answer?

Where exactly did we discuss Ashwathama being an ansh of Rudra?  I know that when he went to massacre the Panchalas in his night attack, Rudra was defending the camp, but Ashwathama defeated him, and was given a weapon w/ which to wipe them out. 😕

But Ashwathama being a part of Rudra himself - this is news to me.  In that case, he should have overshadowed everyone in the war, and been ahead of even Bheeshma & Drona.

Anyway, let's discuss that in the Mahabharata thread.
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I don't remember where exactly but it must be in the SOC thread itself on the earlier pages where I mentioned about Hanuman, Saamb and Ashwatthama to be Satvik, Rajsik and Tamsik ansh of Shiv-Shankar-Rudra possibly. This we did when we were discussing something regarding Saamb in the game. You probably have forgotten the minute details of my post because Ashwatthama was not the main topic. In fact, I have posted this quite a few times IIRC. And so far as Ashwatthama overpowering everyone, I would say that he was ansh avatar (even Saamb could have over powered everyone then) and was mighty and powerful in absolute sense. And he was destructive. That's the quality or characteristic to be looked at. And what I used in the game was the fact - pure text written in MB and HVP so it had nothing to do with the logic of how could he be Rudra's incarnation or part incarnation. BTW if you didn't remember my earlier posts and Ashwatthama Rudra point is new to you then how did you crack it in the quiz?
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

I don't remember where exactly but it must be in the SOC thread itself on the earlier pages where I mentioned about Hanuman, Saamb and Ashwatthama to be Satvik, Rajsik and Tamsik ansh of Shiv-Shankar-Rudra possibly. This we did when we were discussing something regarding Saamb in the game. You probably have forgotten the minute details of my post because Ashwatthama was not the main topic. In fact, I have posted this quite a few times IIRC. And so far as Ashwatthama overpowering everyone, I would say that he was ansh avatar (even Saamb could have over powered everyone then) and was mighty and powerful in absolute sense. And he was destructive. That's the quality or characteristic to be looked at. And what I used in the game was the fact - pure text written in MB and HVP so it had nothing to do with the logic of how could he be Rudra's incarnation or part incarnation. BTW if you didn't remember my earlier posts and Ashwatthama Rudra point is new to you then how did you crack it in the quiz?


Shivang

Somehow, in the cases of both Samba & Ashwatthama, it's hard to digest.  For Hanuman, it's easily acceptable.  Both Samba & Ashwathama were notorious characters.

Samba - the main thing he's remembered for is being cross-dressed and brought before the rishis, who cursed that he'd give birth to a mace, that destroyed the Yadava dynasty.  Also, for an ansh of Shiva, there are no real achievements in his name.  The main things SB recounts him as doing are
  • Fighting the army of Shalva, and forcing one of his generals to either retreat or killing him, before Krishna returned (this is described in MB)
  • Abducting Duryodhan's daughter Lakshmanaa and disrupting her swayamvar.  As a result, the Kauravas had no option but to turn her over to him, even though she didn't want him
And in the latter case, when Samba tried fleeing w/ Lakshmanaa, Bheeshma, Drona, Karna, Kripa, Ashwatthama all combined to defeat and capture him, and Balarama had to go to save him.  Imagine Hanuman being defeated.  That's what tends to undermine the claims of Samba being an ansh of Shiva.  (Incidentally, SB seems to accidentally mention Arjun as well here, but this incident more likely then not took place either during Pandava rule in Indraprastha, when Arjun was just not available for such a role, or it happened during the Pandava exile.  I'm inclined to think that it's the latter, since Krishna was @ that time visiting the Pandavas, which is why Ugrasena & others turned to Balarama for help in this episode.)

Ashwatthama too - on the night he massacred the Panchalas & Draupadi's sons, he was confronted by some form of Rudra, who had been asked by Krishna to protect the camp.  Ashwathama somehow defeated him, and as a reward, was given a weapon w/ which to destroy his enemies.  While he kicked Dhrishtadyumna to death, the rest of the massacre he did using that weapon.  While that incident may have demonstrated his powers, it still doesn't explain why he was not the #1 warrior of the Kauravas, higher than even Bheeshma, Drona, Karna & even Shalya.  If he had such a divine link
  • He would never have been defeated in battle, or even superseded by others in that army
  • He'd never have been cursed.
The toughest part of accepting Ashwathama as an ansh of Rudra is his willingness to do wanton evil.  He asked his father for the Brahmashira weapon out of jealousy of Arjun, and he once tried to trick Krishna into giving him the sudarshan.  I think Krishna may have given him the Narayanastra instead.  After the carnage, Yudhisthir asked Narada about him, and was told a story.  I'll try & dig it up later.

Another mistaken notion - contrary to what some texts claim, he was not immortal.  KMG clearly states that he lived for 3000 years more, and then finally died.  I'm just wondering where I first read about him or Kripacharya being immortal.
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Yeah, read Sauptika Parva.  I can't reproduce that @ the moment - I might dig up things later.
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Well I am open over here for both to believe and not to believe Saamb and Ashwatthama to be part of Shiv or Rudra because God's play is always not understandable (In fact we all are God's ansh but having the layer of trigunmayi maya - even Ravan is another form of Ram one can say because he was also living in Vaikunth as gatekeeper and was Shiv's devotee by nature but born with Tamas quality). Saamb or Ashwatthama may have been born with some quality or vibhooti or excellence (power or concentration or anyone for that matter just as a boon of Shiv) or to fulfill some purpose of Shiv (and Bhishma and everyone else were divine incarnations). So that vibhooti may or may not be invincible in a war but still a quality or excellence in its own field. Even people believe Swami Vivekanand to be an incarnation of Shiv but he had his particular journey to realize self. So may be it is like God's part incarnation is not always born realized or on righteous actions (Parashuram is the example possibly) or doesn't always have control over mind/anger (Narsinha is the example - and Rudra is himself Anger personified and God absorbs every quality in him) but has a predefined divine purpose (whether fulfilled in Satvik or Rajasik or Tamasik way and teachings given to the world either in positive sense like Lord Ram or negative sense) and some spiritual qualities as excellence (like concentration as I said). Epics may be calling some crucial spiritual quality of them to be the ANSH and not the ability or willingness to identify dharm in every moment of life or defeating every warrior you confront in a war.

Saamb played a vital role in both those significant events like a divine catalyst. Firstly he became the reason for Yadavas to leave the earth after Krishna which was very important  and necessary in the words of Krishna himself. Secondly, by marrying Lakshmana (in whatever way), he ensured that Krishna wouldn't lift the weapon against Kauravas in the war and Narayani sena would have to be given to Kauravas and Kauravas wouldwage war.

Anyway, as I said I am open either way so I also agree with your point that Saamb and Ashwatthama as complete powerful Rudra himself is not digestible at all (And their nature or origin of nature is nowhere near the Shiv we worship - Sagun roop of Bholenath and embodiment of SatChitAanand). But how we take the meaning of ANSH and how we connect to this the Vibhooti yog (Dando damayatam asmi...Maunam chaivasmi guhyanam --- pure spiritual qualities rather than virtues or vices - right or wrong - sense or lack of sense of dharma). Moreover, in the game, I can't bring my logic or opinion so I have to accept what is given in the text objectively whenever I have to guess and hence I can also ask the same thing in the question too when I have to ask.
Edited by ShivangBuch - 11 years ago