~| Whatever you want to argue about - 2 |~ - Page 41

Originally posted by: Krishnapanchali

Can we talk about curse to yayati. And how did it affected puru and yadu.

And, O king, having virtuously ruled his subjects for a long time, Yayati was attacked with a hideous decrepitude destroying his personal beauty. And attacked by decrepitude, the monarch then spoke, O Bharata, unto his sons Yadu and Puru and Turvasu and Drahyu and Anu these words, 'Ye dear sons, I wish to be a young man and to gratify my appetites in the company of young women. Do you help me therein.' To him his eldest son born of Devayani then said, 'What needest thou, O king? Dost thou want to have your youth?' Yayati then told him, 'Accept thou my decrepitude, O son! With thy youth I would enjoy myself. During the time of a great sacrifice I have been cursed by the Muni Usanas (Sukra). O son, I would enjoy myself with your youth. Take any of you this my decrepitude and with my body rule ye my kingdom. I would enjoy myself with a renovated body. Therefore, ye my sons, take ye my decrepitude.' But none of his sons accepted his decrepitude. Then his youngest son Puru said unto him, 'O king, enjoy thyself thou once again with a renovated body and returned youth! I shall take thy decrepitude and at thy command rule thy kingdom.' Thus addressed, the royal sage, by virtue of his ascetic power then transferred his own decrepitude unto that high-souled son of his and with the youth of Puru became a youth; while with the monarch's age Puru ruled his kingdom.

What did he meant from when he asked his son for their "youth". ??

O monarch, since thou hast made vice thy beloved pursuit, though fully acquainted with the precepts of religion, invincible decrepitude shall paralyse thee!' Yayati answered, 'Adorable one, I was solicited by the daughter of the Danava king to fructify her season. I did it from a sense of virtue and not from other motives. That male person, who being solicited by a woman in her season doth not grant her wishes, is called, O Brahmana, by those conversant with the Vedas, a slayer of the embryo. He who, solicited in secret by a woman full of desire and in season, goeth not in unto her, loseth virtue and is called by the learned a killer of the embryo, O son of Bhrigu, for these reasons, and anxious to avoid sin, I went into Sarmishtha.' Sukra then replied, 'Thou art dependent on me. Thou shouldst have awaited my command. Having acted falsely in the matter of thy duty, O son of Nahusha, thou hast been guilty of the sin of theft

Yayati, the son of Nahusha, thus cursed by the angry Usanas, was then divested of his youth and immediately overcome by decrepitude. And Yayati said, 'O son of Bhrigu, I have not yet been satiated with youth or with Devayani. Therefore, O Brahmana, be graceful unto me so that decrepitude might not touch me.' Sukra then answered, 'I never speak an untruth. Even now, O king, art thou attacked by decrepitude. But if thou likest, thou art competent to transfer this thy decrepitude to another.' Yayati said, 'O Brahmana, let it be commanded by thee that that son of mine who giveth me his youth shall enjoy my kingdom, and shall achieve both virtue and fame.' Sukra replied, 'O son of Nahusha, thinking of me thou mayst transfer this thy decrepitude p. 183 to whomsoever thou likest. That son who shall give thee his youth shall become thy successor to the throne. He shall also have long life, wide fame, and numerous progeny!'

What did the curse actually meant from a non divine pov??

Please anyone comment on this

Clarification -

I did not try to make Krishna a villain. Last time we had a discussion about Pandavas and Krishna, I was told that there isn't a single citation where Krishna is mentioned before Swayamvar therefore he didn't know Pandavas because it is not in BORI CE

As I listed previously, if they knew each other before that scene:

1) Pandavas would've contacted Krishna, not decided to kill themselves (IIRC) when they were wandering around as poor beggars.

2) Krishna would've contacted them.

3) Kunti never returned to her bio family at any instance.

4) Kunti mentioned Vasudeva and Shurasena only once and that was with bitter feelings

@Red

This is why I said that Krishna didn't help them when they needed, I didn't mean Krishna didn't help them "knowing" that they needed it, it was a poor selection of words from my side, I am sorry for that

Didn't intend to offend anyone

About Vyasa Krishna Drupad Planning the swayamvar.

1. Krishna and his entire clan came as a witness to swayamvar and also gave gifts to pandavas later. Kind of proves that Draupadi was sister like or daughter like that absolutely no one participated for her.

2. MB doesnt mention anything but Puranas have a relationship between Krishna and Narada and Drupad

(Drupad's one wife is supposedly a yadava)

(Narada's brother and he himself are married to Panchala princesses)

(Narada is always around Krishna/Vasudev)

3. Vyasa tells Pandavas to go to swayamvar and that Draupadi will be the common wife.

But Vyasa and Krishna and Drupad do not seem to have planned together because there is a major disconnect in the swayamvar between them

1. Pandavas are told about polyandry but Drupad is not. Drupad has no clue and is surprised when given the news. Yudhi is not able to convince him and Vyasa has to take him aside and convince him. If Polyandry was pre planned between all three why did this happen.

2. If Drau was only supposed to marry Yudhi, why did Vyasa tell them polyandry. Why not tell them that she will be Yudhi's wife. Then BANS would not even dare to look at her face. Arjun would have competed and won her and given her to elder bro. Kunti even if she made that statement, it would have been laughed off. Yudhi would have told Drupad I have to marry her, Drupad accepted happily. End of story.

So when Pandavas were told of polyandry in advnce why wasnt Drupad. And if Krishna Vyasa wanted Yudhi Drau to be married why were Pandavas not told that and told polyandry.

That is why I am saying Krishna + Drupad planned separately for Drau Arjun and Vyasa planned separately for Drau Yudhi.

Vyasa found out. He had the option to tell Pandavas Yudhi Drau only. But he instead chose polyandry to ensure Arjun is not split in future too if not now

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Clarification -

I did not try to make Krishna a villain. Last time we had a discussion about Pandavas and Krishna, I was told that there isn't a single citation where Krishna is mentioned before Swayamvar therefore he didn't know Pandavas because it is not in BORI CE

As I listed previously, if they knew each other before that scene:

1) Pandavas would've contacted Krishna, not decided to kill themselves (IIRC) when they were wandering around as poor beggars.

2) Krishna would've contacted them.

3) Kunti never returned to her bio family at any instance.

4) Kunti mentioned Vasudeva and Shurasena only once and that was with bitter feelings

@Red

This is why I said that Krishna didn't help them when they needed, I didn't mean Krishna didn't help them "knowing" that they needed it, it was a poor selection of words from my side, I am sorry for that

Didn't intend to offend anyone

Not BORI but as I said HV mentions Akroorji's visit to Hastinapur and him having discussed Kunti with an assurance that Yadavas would ensure that their rights are not taken away.

Although I still feel that Bheem training under Balramji happened before Lakshagriha, because post that, there is no actual time it could have.

So even if they didn't meet, they definitely knew about Krishna and vice versa. It was a you help us we help you situation between them

Aside when Krishna visits Hastinapur at the news of Pandavas death, he does cry, why would he go and why would he cry if they were completely unaware.

Pandavas didn't seek help of Krishna because they didn't think that Krishna could actually help him.

Last when Pandavas heard of Krishna was when he his Mathura was being repeatedly attacked by Magadh n team with little to no support. (Here I am assuming that Dury n team were intelligent enough to ensure that the Pandavas don't get much external information while in Varnavrat so last information of Krishna that they would have had was of the time Krishna was still in Mathura) even if they knew about the migration to Dwarika they would still have assumed that Krishna has just shifted and is to make his state work fine, they definitely didn't think Krishna was worthy enough to help him.

At this time their best possible solution was to hide, and seeking Krishna's help would have been the worst possible option, it would be not just a chance to expose themselves, but also an additional chance of increased attack on Krishna's land,(as I said I don't think they knew Kauravs are supporting Jarasangh)

Plus by then Krishna wasn't someone trustworthy of Pandavas. Yes they doubted that Krishna might backstab. Afterall he was looking for some external support, not many states were independent by then, most were under Jarasangh's denomination. Hastinapur was probably the second most powerful independent state of the country. They definitely would have feared that Krishna might trade them for Hastinapur's support against Jarasangh.

As I said earlier too, they DIDN'T trust Bheeshm either

They were reluctant to come out at all. Nakul Sahdev didn't even contact Shalya who was actually a much safer option, why would they contact Krishna

Coming to Krishna, he was himself stuck in his problems-- Migration to Dwarika, visit to Hastinapur for remorse, when they got the new of theft for which Krishna was blamed, internal politics.

Once he got free he must have tried to find if or not they are alive and was in search of them

Originally posted by: Chiillii

About Vyasa Krishna Drupad Planning the swayamvar.

1. Krishna and his entire clan came as a witness to swayamvar and also gave gifts to pandavas later. Kind of proves that Draupadi was sister like or daughter like that absolutely no one participated for her.

2. MB doesnt mention anything but Puranas have a relationship between Krishna and Narada and Drupad

(Drupad's one wife is supposedly a yadava)

(Narada's brother and he himself are married to Panchala princesses)

(Narada is always around Krishna/Vasudev)

3. Vyasa tells Pandavas to go to swayamvar and that Draupadi will be the common wife.

But Vyasa and Krishna and Drupad do not seem to have planned together because there is a major disconnect in the swayamvar between them

1. Pandavas are told about polyandry but Drupad is not. Drupad has no clue and is surprised when given the news. Yudhi is not able to convince him and Vyasa has to take him aside and convince him. If Polyandry was pre planned between all three why did this happen.

2. If Drau was only supposed to marry Yudhi, why did Vyasa tell them polyandry. Why not tell them that she will be Yudhi's wife. Then BANS would not even dare to look at her face. Arjun would have competed and won her and given her to elder bro. Kunti even if she made that statement, it would have been laughed off. Yudhi would have told Drupad I have to marry her, Drupad accepted happily. End of story.

So when Pandavas were told of polyandry in advnce why wasnt Drupad. And if Krishna Vyasa wanted Yudhi Drau to be married why were Pandavas not told that and told polyandry.

That is why I am saying Krishna + Drupad planned separately for Drau Arjun and Vyasa planned separately for Drau Yudhi.

Vyasa found out. He had the option to tell Pandavas Yudhi Drau only. But he instead chose polyandry to ensure Arjun is not split in future too if not now

There's a VERY EASY answer to this 😆. There was no polyandry 🤣. Panchali was meant for Yudhishtira, and they all knew it. Arjuna was only the means. All convos about polyandry were added later.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

There's a VERY EASY answer to this 😆. There was no polyandry 🤣. Panchali was meant for Yudhishtira, and they all knew it. Arjuna was only the means. All convos about polyandry were added later.

But Polyandry is way too much to be ignored. Nearly every important character does mention about Polyandry.

Aside why they have Archery competition if it were to make Yudhishtir the groom, why don't have a competition on Neeti Shastra instead

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

But Polyandry is way too much to be ignored. Nearly every important character does mention about Polyandry.

Aside why they have Archery competition if it were to make Yudhishtir the groom, why don't have a competition on Neeti Shastra instead

Because events like swayamvara are as much a political show as a groom choice. The contraption was built for Arjuna. The other kings would know that he could beat them hollow. Makes things easier going forward.

Drupada could also have offered arranged marriage with Arjuna or Yudhishtira or all 5 Pandavas if he so wanted. That he didn't says he wanted to make sure all Aryavarta knew of Arjuna's prowess. And Arjuna's prowess was under Yudhishtira's control.

No one can deny that everyone one of the points raised by Chili would be answered with no polyandry 😆

Also, Vyasa wouldn't have failed to notice it was an archery contest. Why wouldn't he tell Drupada before? Answer is all that convo is interpolation. Yudhishtira was the intended groom all along for everyone.

But give me one reason on why would there be such a huge interpolation

Polyandry is not a trivial issue like Draupadi stopping/rejecting Karna, it's something relatively unique if not completely unheard of. What purpose to make so huge change in the story

Aside a Neeti Shastra competition could have been an equally power packed Swayamwar

Not just the conversation of others but even conversation of Draupadi to BANS (especially Bheem n Arjun) give a husband wife vibe

@Deepikagupta

Re: Revati. Yadavas were trying to escape Jarasandha by leaving Mathura. They needed land. Revati was too tall for a woman and didn't get any husbands. She was also getting old for a marriage.

Balram needed land. He married her to get land.

She was older and taller than him. Him beating her with his plough is symbolic. Plough is a sign of male virility.

Basically, Balram cut Revati down to size by using his physical strength and likely assaulting her just as he did with Yamuna. Her money didn't matter once Balram got it. She was completely under his control, and he could assault her as he pleased to put her in her place/ keep cutting her down to size.

@Nora

You didn't hurt my feelings re: Krishna. I don't consider him God. He's a grey character to me and all the more interesting for it

The only way you could completely piss me off with re: MBh is if you put Panchali with Karna🤢. A sexual assault victim with perpetrator.