~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 69

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

@bold I like Krishnaa a lot, but comparing Subhadra and Panchali is not wise

Subhadra by then was still a protected kid (15 years old girls who always remained protected by the unusual evils), she suddenly finds herself in a situation where her cousin has abducted her, she has no clue about anything, her family is ready to accept this man as her husband and she has literally no refuge. Wouldn't she simply accept the status quo?

Compare this to Panchali, a woman of 25+ years, a confident queen, someone who knows that her brother and bff would back her no matter what. Definitely she would be much more confident to face the world and speak out against the evils

She had age and experience behind her. But her brother and BFF were not in dice hall while she was being assaulted. That was all her.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Abduction of a woman for marriage was called Rakshasa Vivaha.

There was no ceremony needed in Rakshasa vivaha, no circumambulation to the fire no mantras.

All those rituals were done in Deiva and Arsha Vivaha.

Rakshasa vivaha meant abduction and immediate intimacy at first available opportunity.

But please be honest here. Will a few mantras and homa be equal to Subhadra's consent. Specially if they were done after she had been kidnapped and taken away, brought back and married to the guy who kidnapped her in the first place

And just because the act of bedding was not violent or subhadra quietly acquiesced due to lack of any other alternative does it make it an act of love.

No, it doesn't.

All I said was the men wouldn't have thought of it as rape.

Whereas what was attempted with Panchali WAS rape. Because she was already married, and they openly called for her to be a sex slave.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Abduction of a woman for marriage was called Rakshasa Vivaha.

There was no ceremony needed in Rakshasa vivaha, no circumambulation to the fire no mantras.

All those rituals were done in Deiva and Arsha Vivaha.

Rakshasa vivaha meant abduction and immediate intimacy at first available opportunity.

But please be honest here. Will a few mantras and homa be equal to Subhadra's consent. Specially if they were done after she had been kidnapped and taken away, brought back and married to the guy who kidnapped her in the first place

And just because the act of bedding was not violent or subhadra quietly acquiesced due to lack of any other alternative does it make it an act of love.

But in.a few cases like Oriya Mahabharata mentions, Duryodhan is said to have not forced her to get married after abduction and married when she agreed

Undoubtedly they have tried to justify Duryodhan's act (for obvious reasons although I would have rather demonized him all the more for abducting the daughter of my land ) and make him look less villianish, so this statement couldn't be trusted, but if for once we take this to ne true, then what could it mean?

1) He took Bhanumati to his house and said fine don't get married till the time you want, you are anyway my captive. Like hell I care

2) He didn't force himself onto her, asked her to take time and accept him as husband post which they had a ritualistic marriage

Considering that they are making him a good husband, I guess the second option seems more probable.

Doesn't that mean that these people after Rakshas vivah did marry ritualistically before getting into proper married life

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

She had age and experience behind her. But her brother and BFF were not in dice hall while she was being assaulted. That was all her.

She had age and experience and the strength of her brother and bff(even if they weren't present there), why else do you think she chanted his name during Vastraharan. She was a confident lady unlike Subhadra who was a confused kid

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

No, it doesn't.

All I said was the men wouldn't have thought of it as rape.

Whereas what was attempted with Panchali WAS rape. Because she was already married, and they openly called for her to be a sex slave.

I don't think many thought even Panchali episode to be a r**e/molesteration attempt (excluding her immidiate family and bff) else the sages would have literally ransacked the Kuru kingdom on such act openly

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

@Chiillii I don't think we can compare Duryodhan n Arjun. Excluding Subhadra, Arjun had without abduction marriages Chitrangada, Uloopi n others. But in case of Dury it's like a 100% track record

Bold - 🤣🤣 sorry preet I can't stop my laughter.

I guess even mens were abducted arjun was abducted by uloopi , I read even krishna grandson aniruddh was 2 abducted by banasur's daughter

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I don't think many thought even Panchali episode to be a r**e/molesteration attempt (excluding her immidiate family and bff) else the sages would have literally ransacked the Kuru kingdom on such act openly

Actually, they did think of it as sexual assault.

Dusshassana openly tells her to "love the Kurus" and Karna to "serve the Kurus as slave."

Suyodhana's thigh was an order for a lap dance.

Not something a wife would be ordered to do in open court.

And wife would never have been stripped naked in open court.

So yeah, even the perpetrators knew it was assault.

Sorry. Abduction is wrong, but by those days' standards, they were actually marrying the woman. What happened to Panchali was purposeful sexual assault. Not comparable.

Also, Vyasa and Narada were pretty mad. Vyasa had made Yudhishtira swear to to indulge in hostilities with Kauravas. After dice hall, Vyasa went and ordered Yudhishtira to prepare for war.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

She had age and experience and the strength of her brother and bff(even if they weren't present there), why else do you think she chanted his name during Vastraharan. She was a confident lady unlike Subhadra who was a confused kid

No. In the middle of a sexual assault, she wasn't confidently calling out Krishna's name. That was a terrified call. No human would be coolly chanting a BFF's name. That was a Star Mahabharata creation.

That Panchali retained enough mental faculties to continue arguing her case was a testament to her strength.

Let's not minimize what she did and assign credit to Krishna.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Actually, they did think of it as sexual assault.

Dusshassana openly tells her to "love the Kurus" and Karna to "serve the Kurus as slave."

Suyodhana's thigh was an order for a lap dance.

Not something a wife would be ordered to do in open court.

And wife would never have been stripped naked in open court.

So yeah, even the perpetrators knew it was assault.

Sorry. Abduction is wrong, but by those days' standards, they were actually marrying the woman. What happened to Panchali was purposeful sexual assault. Not comparable.

Also, Vyasa and Narada were pretty mad. Vyasa had made Yudhishtira swear to to indulge in hostilities with Kauravas. After dice hall, Vyasa went and ordered Yudhishtira to prepare for war.

What happened to Panchali wasn't justified not by the standards of any time, what I meant it that the uproar due to it was very low as compared to what should have happened

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

No. In the middle of a sexual assault, she wasn't confidently calling out Krishna's name. That was a terrified call. No human would be coolly chanting a BFF's name. That was a Star Mahabharata creation.

That Panchali retained enough mental faculties to continue arguing her case was a testament to her strength.

Let's not minimize what she did and assign credit to Krishna.

I am not undermining her work, definitely she knew she wouldn't get support from anyone at this time. What I mean is even if you are very strong you sometimes start losing your confidence, to regain your confidence you need to recall your biggest strength, that's exactly what she was doing while chanting Govind's name. That just increased her inner strength nothing else

What I mean to say that there were still people whom she knew would accept her once she is out of the clutches of these demons, that is very big comfirt and strength for anyone.

Subhadra didn't have that option too, she had no place to go if not with Arjun