Mastani, Rakma Bai Pg30 | All about MASTANI, Chimaji, Nana Saheb Pg31 - Page 7

Thanks Abhay for the pic...i think there will be some pics available in one of the institutes in Pune, that work towards collecting and preserving the info abt history...

anyway, did u watch today's episode?? can u give more info abt Nasir Khan, the second Nizam...

[QUOTE=history_geek]
Great discussion. Absolute delight to read the comments. Will respond in details asap. Just dropped in to make a short reply.


First,

Great to find you here Maddy. Long Long time. Almost 2 years. I knew, for sure, you would be here anytime. Good to see you as well as Diksha. :)

It has been 2 years?!  I remember our JA days, frenetic consumed by JA days and nights!  Remember our 12-1 am discussions?  I remember Radhika and I used to exchange crazy PMs starting after 12 am!  Writing pages and pages on JA.  Big part of wonderful JA experience was of course the wonderful writers, your threads and my psunami of questions as you called once 😆

In fact, making this reply after reading your comments about the aversion to kids love story. ROFL.

You are lucky you did not watch how CAS got butchered after the love saga.  One min Ashoka is vowing revenge on Chankya's killers & promising to fulfill his dream of Akhand Bharat and next epi running after KVK 😡🤢  I mean literally running after her 😡

Young Mastani is not going to enter, Maddy. That is an old article of November. At best, rumor. Even the child Kashibai had not started regular shoots till early last week, even though she was introduced in the press launch. For more details, you can watch the press launch video on Peshwa Bajirao's FB page where the makers have gone at length while explaining when they will introduce love story.

You can also read the article which appeared in the Indian Express last week. Just searched on Google and found it.

http://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/television/sonys-peshwa-bajirao-will-go-beyond-love-story-of-bajirao-mastani-say-makers-4481916/

It says -  ' The brief given to us was a biopic so, like a biopic, the show will cover all aspects of Bajirao's life " the war and his personal life. We will show the "so-called love story" of Bajirao Mastani but it will be just a part of the bigger story that we have. The show is not a love saga. It is about all the aspects of Bajirao's life, of which the love story is one small part. We will treat it like that. '

And again, just now the creatives of the show also confirmed that they are going to show all aspects of Bajirao's life of which Mastani was an important but a small part.

In their words - "Mastani was only a small part of Bajirao's life, albeit important. His achievements were unparalleled and we will show all aspects."

Bottomline.
Mastani is not coming anytime soon. For Mastani to come, we need Raja Chatrasal Bundela too, and there is no news about his casting yet. Lot of people will withdraw if they turn this into a love story.

Thanks for sharing this information.  I so want this to remain about Bajirao only.  He was so much much more than half part of Bajirao-Mastani - hope we get to see him like you have described in the thread here.  It was wonderful reading about his bravery, his political acumen, his wars and strategies and so much more.


Edited by MaddyO - 7 years ago

Originally posted by: sweet_diksha

right... Jankibai was rajaram's first wife, and Prataprao Gujar's daughter...she died childless...

Tarabai was Hambirrao Mohite's daughter and Soyrabai's niece...

Rajasbai , Rajaram's third wife was the one who captured Tarabai and her son Shivaraje and put them in jail...

Thanks Akanksha and Diksha for clearing the confusion. 😆

Diksha - today's episode Rajasbai mentioned her son.  Was there another grandson of Shivaji Maharaj?

Posting these genealogies here as a ready reference for Ch Shivaji's & Bajirao's families:

1. About Shivaji's end
2.  How Sambhaji obtained the throne ?
3. Rajaram
4. Sambhaji - Akbar - Veer Durga Das Rathore of Jodhpur - Raja Ram Singh of Amer
5. About Tara Bai - Shahu Ji and Yesu Bai - Balaji Vishwanath and Zinat un Nissa
6. Santaji and Dhanaji Jadhav
7. Janki Bai and Pratap Rao Gujar
8. About Nasir




Rashmi, Maddy and Akansha

I had to read your comments spread on 3 pages back and forth again and again to understand from where should i start making my reply. Lol. Finally decided to give a common comment. I have tried to cover all the topics.

Feel free to debate. I am writing something which seems to be a little different from what i have read here. :)



1. About Shivaji's end

From what I have read , Shivaji passed away without naming a successor. His 2 sons - Sambhaji and Rajaram (10 years old) were the natural claimants. Rajaram was young hence his succession meant that a regency would be there. Shivaji was wise enough to not do this as this would have let to a civil war, because there was already a jealousy between the old senior ministers like Annaji Datto and Moro Triambak & regency was akin to giving invitation to rival camps. Hence, he opted out of regency.

Then he thought that he should divide the kingdom but the decision was also wisely discarded after giving due thoughts.

His only option was Sambhaji. Sambhaji was young and is described a "profligate and capricious youth" at that time ( <-- this is in Marathi accounts, reference can be given if required). We know that he had joined hands with Dilir Khan (the minister of Aurangzeb and enemy of Shivaji) and had defected to his camp earlier , and had just then returned back to Shivaji before his death. Even then Shivaji welcomed him back to his fold.

What Shivaji tried was he tried to arouse the "patriotic sentiments and his adherence to dharma" by various methods like reading out a big speech to him telling him about his (Shivaji's) struggles and how he has built this empire. He also prepared a list of his property and handed it over to Sambhaji in order to make him understand that there was a big responsibility on his shoulders. He did various such things which need not be mentioned here unless required to make him responsible enough. Shivaji was a great judge of character, he understood his words were falling on deaf ears and Sambhaji was not going to improve. He was greatly pained in his last days because he did not know what was going to happen to the kingdom.

All this happened while Sambhaji was kept in the Panhala fort under strict supervision, after he had returned from the Mughal camp back to the Marathas. When Shivaji knew that he can not be brought back to the correct path, he instructed the fort keeper and 2 of his associates to keep and eye on him so that he does not creates further mischief. And he himself went to meet his guru Saint Ram Das.

Add to this, there was such a fierce politics which was played by the women of palace (i mean his wives about which you all have written already). Soyra Bai, the mother of Rajaram felt that Shivaji was neglecting her and she tried all methods to gain attention of Shivaji back by plotting against other wives and the entire palace was a hotbed of conspiracies carried with help from servants, maids, ministers, hakims (doctors) etc. Total kitchen politics.

The reason given is Shivaji's marriage with other wives sometime during / after / before his coronation and this made Soyra Bai jealous of the younger wives.

At one time, the conflict reached such a height that to get peace from the internal tussles of his wives, Shivaji slept outside of palace for some solace. His health further deteriorated and this made the conspiracies even more rampant as the heir was not yet announced and rival camps did all possible things to attain success.

He died without naming any heir is what i know. A Marathi historian has remarked his helplessness in these words - "A great man like him got the better of all of his powerful enemies, but could not control the games played by his own wives in the house."

Quite a gloomy picture came in front of my eyes about his last days. He was not happy, it appeared to me.  :(



2.  How Sambhaji obtained the throne ?


No doubt, Sambhaji is described as fearless and 'recklessly' brave just like his father BUT he lacked the wisdom to choose right men and also was not a great judge of character of people, like Shivaji who just needed a glimpse to gauge the opposite person. One can list many deficiencies but even Peshwa Bajirao will appear lacking certain things if we start comparing him with Shivaji. Let us come back.

He was in Panhala Fort when Shivaji passed away. Efforts were made ( obviously by Soyra Bai ) to prevent news of his death reach Sambhaji but it reached him. She was supported by the private secretary of Shivaji - Balaji Avji who wrote a letter to the fort keeper at Panhala to keep strict eye on Sambhaji and not allow him escape. But Sambhaji somehow managed to escape the fort after killing the fort keeper, and began his march over Raigad.

Meanwhile, Soyra Bai had placed her 10 year old son Raja Ram on throne. Senapati Hambir Rao Mohite (about whom you were talking) had no knowledge about the plans of Soyra Bai and he joined Sambhaji on his way to Raigad.

2 other senior ministers of Shivaji - Moropant Pingle and Annaji Datto who had supported Soyra Bai now started panicking. They were marching towards Panhala to capture Sambhaji (probably on orders of Soyra Bai) but were captured by Sambhaji and kept imprisoned in Panhala Fort.

Now Sambhaji marched with a force of 20,000 men (this shows he had good backing of army) and without any resistance entered the capital and in July that year he became the Chatrapati.

Soyra Bai was executed on orders of Sambhaji. It is said that she was killed on charges of poisoning Shivaji. This is present in the Maratha document which was written in 1813(or 23). But the oldest document Sabasad written in last decade of 17th century has not mentioned this. But historians say that this could be because this was written during the tenure of Rajaram and he would not allow anything written against his mother even if in reality she had poisoned Shivaji.

But again, the historians say another thing. The document of 1813(or 23) which mentions the poisoning incident can not be accepted without any scrutiny because Sambhaji needed some pretext to eliminate the contender for the throne.

In addition to Maratha sources, the reports of the English and French merchants who used to send the day to day intelligence back home give us good details.

In August 1681, 3 people were punished by ( lashes ? ) Sambhaji for poisoning his food.

In October 1681, along with the 3 people mentioned above Soyra Bai was also charged with the conspiracy against Sambhaji.

It is possible she was behind the plan to poison Sambhaji. They along with 25 other people were executed and after 2 weeks Soyra Bai was given death by poison. These are the intelligence reports of French British merchants.




If we co relate them with Marathi accounts, we can have further debate.

a. Either Soyra Bai poisoned Shivaji according to the record of 1813(or 23, i don't remember the year now) OR

b. according to the merchant reports of 1681 she was involved in conspiracy against Sambhaji OR

c. she was not involved anywhere and was executed just on a false pretext.


I could not reach a conclusion with my present level of reading. You may help.



3. Rajaram


Rajaram was kept in imprisonment by Sambhaji and he remained in imprisonment ( OR house arrest ? ) till the death of Sambhaji in 1689, for the next 9 years. You all can throw more light on this aspect of Sambhaji and Rajaram's relationship.


All i know with complete assurity is that  -

a. He received no education as he was under detention for 9 years in the Fort of Raigad and had no congenial company in his boyhood.

b. It was Yesu Bai who obtained release of Rajaram after 9 years in 1689, after the brutal execution of Sambhaji, before she and Shahu Ji were themselves captured at Raigad by forces of Aurangzeb.

c. He had no personal valor unlike all the Maratha chiefs and had wasted himself in opium ( no wonder he died at the age of 30 in 1700). He should be thankful to his stars that he got services of great generals like Santaji, Dhanaji Jadhav and till 1694 his mentor Prahlad Niraji controlled all affairs.

d. It is said, whatever he lacked in qualities was possessed by his wife Tara Bai.



4. Sambhaji - Akbar - Veer Durga Das Rathore of Jodhpur - Raja Ram Singh of Amer


I came to know Sambhaji had an excellent knowledge of Sanskrit which he learnt under Shivaji , and some of his Sanskrit poems have been preserved and are known though i have not tried to find and read them.

This i got to know after an anecdote -> A letter written in Sanskrit, written by Sambhaji and Kavi kalash( his associate which you all know) was discovered in Jaipur State Archives. The contents of the letter are interesting. Sambhaji had written to the ruler of Jaipur / Amer that time has come to throw away the Mughal rule. Sambhaji said that he would march towards North along with Akbar (son of Aurangzeb who rebelled and was brought to Sambhaji by Veer Durgadas Rathore of Jodhpur) through Gujarat and would be joined by the forces of Veer Durgadas Rathore in Jodhpur and from Amer they will join forces with Raja Ram Singh (son of Mirza Raja Jai Singh of Amber, who had fought against Shivaji earlier) and then throw away Mughal rule from Delhi. The move was supposed to be secret, as Aurangzeb was busy in Deccan that time.

Though, this plan could not materialize. A historian has said - The game was set, field was ready, but what was lacking was a player like Shivaji. A genius of Shivaji was needed to take the plan to the conclusion.

Will discuss in details about Akbar, Durga Das Rathore, and Sambhaji, Kavi Kalash etc, if our discussion proceeds in this direction.



5. About Tara Bai - Shahu Ji and Yesu Bai - Balaji Vishwanath and Zinat un Nissa


I was reading the account of Mughal historian Khafi Khan. He says when the Mughal camp first heard that a woman Tara Bai had decided to run Maratha government they all burst into laughter and became happy as if the roots of the Marathas have been cut. But Alas! They did not know that under her the losses were going to be extreme. He, infact, praises her a lot.


As they are showing in the serial that the Marathas did not know whether Shahu ji is alive or not, before Balaji went into the camp. It was not like this in reality.

In the show it is for dramatic effect. Shahu ji was in contact with Marathas. Shahu Ji was in contact of Marathas through Balaji Vishwanath who was in contact with Shahu Ji through Zinat un Nissa Begum, the noble "angel" daughter of Aurangzeb. {See my post on page 3 {Link} to know more.}

Or may be to put in better terms. The show makers might be right. Because all we know is - Shahu Ji was in contact with Marathas through Balaji. But, do we know since when ? No.


As Rashmi mentioned that only Shahu Ji was released by Mughals in 1707 and not Yesu Bai. This is true. Yesu Bai was released in 1718. As i wrote in my first post on page 3 {Link} about the Zinat un Nissa. Here too i want to add more on her.


Balaji Vishwanath had expressed thanks to the daughter of Aurangzeb - Zinat-un-Nissa for behaving as a shield for Shahu Ji when he was in custody of Aurangzeb. Balaji also gave a "gift" worth 1000 gold coins to Zinat-un-Nissa (these are the events of 1707-8 i think) expressing thanks for her care for Shahu Ji.


When Balaji went to Delhi in 1718, then again it is reported that there was some correspondence of Balaji with Zinat-un-Nissa who by that time had grown very old. It was in 1718 that Yesu Bai was released after interference of Zinat un Nissa who had also played great role in safe passage of Shahu Ji in 1708.


Though, Mughals had released Shahu Ji in 1708 but his mother was released only in 1718 and this release was also effected by Zinat-un-Nissa. When she was captured she was 30 years old and released at age of approx. 60, spending almost entire life in captivity.


She was a great lady and considered very saintly. There is  an emotional letter which was written at her death to Shahu Ji by son of Rajas Bai* expressing condolence. I was moved a lot after reading that letter. Will share later. It shows her great stature in the Maratha household.


* - Maddy, yes Rajas Bai had a son and a daughter too if i am not wrong. This son was Sambhaji II. Check Page 3 {Link} for details and above comment by Shruti(?) can also be seen. :)



6. Santaji and Dhanaji Jadhav

Rashmi mentioned about the duo of Santaji (not shown in serial) and Dhanaji Jadhav (whom we have in our show). Few words about them too. Such was the terror of Santaji and Dhanaji that - When horses of Mughal troops refused to drink water sometimes, ( there was a great saying prevalent) the soldiers used to say - Have you seen the faces of Santaji and Dhanaji in water. {Means, are the horses terrified just like the soldiers get terrified hearing about Santaji and Dhanaji}

Both of them wrecked havoc on Mughal ranks during reign of Rajaram and it is said had Santaji not broken up with Dhanaji then life of Aurangzeb would have been more miserable, but Santaji fought against Rajaram and Dhanaji later and broke up the alliance.

Reason was his uncontrollable tongue. He said something to Rajaram and they clashed.
This gave some ammo and relief to Mughals. He was soon murdered while he was taking a bath in Mahadev hills (some say he was worshiping) by the Mughal forces some where around 1697. He was murdered by his own men who were purchased by Aurangzeb and his head presented to Aurangzeb. Santa Ji was no small personality. He won almost "100s of wars in a decade" for Marathas. Highly revered. He had that rare ability to snatch victory from jaws of defeat.


If i am not wrong, then this gallant general Santaji was son of Senapati Hambir Rao Mohite* and Tara bai was his daughter, means she was sister of Santaji. He was the brother of Soyra Bai too. Hence, Tara bai was niece of Soyra Bai, as Diksha said.

* - He backed Sambhaji to the throne as we saw above, and his death in 1687 was a turning point which left Sambhaji alone and is also considered a reason for his downfall, as he had no great adviser left with him for guidance.



7. Janki Bai and Pratap Rao Gujar


Who was who's daughter ? Lol. This question by you, Maddy, brought back some memories of JA. :-P

Though, Diksha, Akansha and Rashmi have answered. I am writing too.

Jankibai was the daughter of Pratap Rao Gujjar, and as you said he died in a battle against the Mughals in 1674. Shivaji was full of grief and he cursed himself for death of Pratap Rao.

Reason : Just before his death, Pratap Rao was fighting a battle with a Mughal general and he was winning it too. But the Mughal general begged for pardon and out of chivalry, Pratap Rao let him go. When Shivaji came to know of this, he reprimanded Pratap Rao.

The honor of Pratap Rao was hurt and he made a vow not to show his face until he fixes his folly. But by now the Mughal general had support of fellow generals too and was ready. A plan was laid down and Pratap Rao was trapped and despite fighting bravely, he was killed, being heavily outnumbered. We can discuss details if discussion goes in that direction.

Later, Shivaji got Rajaram married to his daughter Jankibai at Raigad. They got married in a grand ceremony that took place in Raigad Fort in 1680. This is the marriage about which you talked in your comment. After 3 weeks of this marriage, Shivaji passed away.

BTW, since i am mentioning Pratap Rao Gujar. Hence another thing came to my mind. I had mentioned an anecdote on Page 3 {Link} in my first post regarding 2 sons of a Senapati of Shivaji who had offered to convert to Islam to save Shahu Ji from conversion in 1703-04. These 2 were sons of Pratap Rao Gujar !!!


8. About Nasir

Diksha, I do not have much information about him right now. Have not read about his early career in depth. There is some problem too, about the DOB of Nasir. It is either 1712 or 1702. I know that he was famous for fighting the second Carnatic War where French and British were also involved on opposite side, this war we all study in school books (Robert Clive vs. Dupleix).

And he was a rival to Bajirao. The last battle of his life was fought by Bajirao against him only. Throughout his life, in the Deccan, Bajirao had danger from Nizam and had fought 2 major wars against him. And hence Nasir is bound to stay here. I need to read more to write something worthwhile about him. Unable to read much these days. :)

The current scenario in the show where we are watching the Nasir and Bajirao clash is an artistic depiction to show the growth of Bajirao. The CVs will show us that he is learning something from each event etc. and as @Mental_Menadhil (name please ?) asked / said, this is what i also want to say, marked in bold below >

Originally posted by: Mental_Manadhil

I have a question to peole who have read about Bajirao.
Is there a lot to show about Bajirao's childhood except for the learning part?
Because I personally feel that right now the main focus is how Balaji Vishwanath becomes the Peshwa & Shahuji the Chattrapati. And Tarabai's resistance to them.
IMO these things are way more important than Bajirao's learnings.

If we see, the actual focus is on these core things related to -> Balaji Vishwanath - Shahu - Aurangzeb - Tarabai - Qamruddin. Nasir is a character they have introduced to show the growth of Bajirao.


9.

@Rucha21.. Welcome to the forum. :)

Thanks Kalgi and Kuki(?). Comparison of real and reel, if done along with watching the show, makes it even much better. Its always fun doing it. :)

@Nonie and @fatssrilanka. Thanks all. :D


Coming to the episode..

In my opinion it was greatly enjoyable. In fact, as Harshu said in the update, it was even better than Friday and Thursday.

Best thing was the diplomatic battle which was fought by Qamruddin and Balaji. Totally awesome. Balaji was on back foot today but i hope he bounces back tomorrow. On history front, there was not much to be shared today. I have just replied to comments here.

And in coming days i think we will have more to discuss about the present topics only, not Bajirao because as we noticed, the show has just started. They are establishing the backdrop. And hence all these major characters except Bajirao will be there to discuss on history front.

Even otherwise, it seems instead of discussing Bajirao history we have decided to dig up entire Maratha history. Lol. But such is Maratha history. I find it different from Mughal history. In JA, we could simply open any book and start reading about Akbar without knowing about Humayun in details and there would be no problem. There was not much connection.

But in this case, as we can see, everything seems so connected. Shivaji - Sambhaji - Rajaram - Shahu ji - Tara Bai - Peshwas, etc. 3 to 4 generations are so closely interconnected that it becomes necessary to read everything which is an arduous task. At least to me it appeared tough when i started.

Anyway.
Nasir and Bajirao's brainy battle looks promising. The episode tomorrow, is going to be great. Eagerly looking forward. Fathers and sons are clashing. Today was the glimpse. Tomorrow the finale. :D

Also, the kids are a delight to watch, the starting scene was one of its kind. Never seen this kind of comedy. Totally innovative. Kids se yaad aaya. Chima ji and Bajirao, competed with each other to give gifts etc to their sisters and impress them. There used to be a sort of competition who gives more gifts to sisters. Highly pampered. :)

I hope i have responded to all. Thanks for posting your views. Learning a lot from the discussions.


Link to last post about Shanivarwada : Here
Link to last update : Episode 4 and 5 : Here
Link to index on Page 1 : Here

Edited by history_geek - 7 years ago

@abhay thnx alot fr sharing interesting info in short...nd its more fun wen ee cmpare it reel versus real as kals and u stated...will b luking frwrd fr more dis thread is intersting enuf since each membr is sharing der knowldege whch dey knw on maratha histry😃

@Abhay Thanks a lot for your reply. My name is Mohini 😃
And its obvious from the episodes till now that Bajirao's growth phase is only a parallel track & for lightheartedness. The main track is the Balaji-Tarabai-Aurangzeb-Shahu Maharaj angle. I love watching them. Such amazing actors ⭐️

@Abhay: Yes I am Shruti 😃

Thanks Abhay...

the info abt this Nasir , that I know, is that he too died at early age like Bajirao, that is around 40...and his death year is said to be 1750/51...and he was Nizam only for abt 2 years... till then his father Qamruddin , himself was Nizam...when Nasir became Nizam, Bajirao's elder son, Balaji Bajirao i.e. Nanasaheb had become Peshva...

Nasir died childless, and then some Sarfaraz became Nizam...

Thanks for the lovely and detailed post. All the episodes uptil now were very interesting and intriguing.