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bunnylovessunny thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: adoremevirgo

now can i add a question here...how can shakuni be judged as a character...i mean as per starbharat he has done everything for his love for his nephews...he wanted duryodhana to sit on the throne...

my question is was he really a gud hearted mama...i mean he knows that as long as krishna is with the pandavas no matter wat kind of treachery he does the kauravas can never win...in spite of that he always instigated duryodhana against the pandavas...
i hv read somewhere that shakuni did wat he did not because he loved his nephews but because he had his own motives...i dont know wat the reason is because i dont remember reading that...

but even if i see it logically then i cant believe that shakuni actually thot that kauravas will win against a team who is always supported by krishna...so i wonder wat the real motives of shakuni were...

can anyone explain...


As far as I know, Shakuini actually wanted to destroy Hastinapur, because, for some reason (There are many) Dhritarashtra imprisons Shakuni, his father and all his 99 brothers. All of them were given food that was sufficient for just one person and because Shakuni was smart and the oldest, all the others fed him to keep him alive so that one day he'd seek revenge. So if Krishna was an instigator of certain events in Mahabharata, Shakuni played an equal role in doing the same.
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#12

I would like put before u all some questions from our Mahabharata (points which are difficult for me to understand by myself), it would be nice if we are able to find some good answers (i know - there are never going just one simple answer😉)
I would try to answer your questions, however, most of my answers will probably match the ones given by other members.

Q1.
Who should be blamed for draupadi's vastra haran - Yudhistr for selling her or duryodhan/dushassan for harassing her - who was at greater fault (note: whether one repented for their action is not the question here) - which is the bigger crime - selling a wife or to strip a woman?
To be politically correct, both the Pandavas, and the Kauravas, along with Karna, Shakuni, and the other silent spectators should be blamed.
However, if u want to know, who was more responsible, Yudisthir or Duryodhan, then I would say, that it depends on your perspective.
Before posing a question, we have to understand that we are dealing with people, who belonged to 5000 years ago. The norms, and ideals of people were different then.
In those days, kings married multiple times for political reason. Does that happen now?
Will, women of today's world tolerate co-wives? No.
But in those days, a king sleeping with 5 wives, and 50 concubines was normal, and legal.
I guess, it's somewat true for Yudisthir's gambling as well.
Staking family members, is outrageous and wrong, NOW, but then, I guess things were different.
Tell me something, had Draupadi not been dragged and disrobed, and had she not been insulted at all, would u still have asked this question?
I guess not. None of us would have debated about Yudisthir's right to stake his family, had Draupadi not been treated like that.
So, for me, Duryodhan and the others were more responsible. Coz, Draupadi, despite becoming a slave, was still Duryodhan's elder sister-in-law. So, disrobing an elder sister-in-law, is absolutely disgusting.
Now, one might say, did Yudisthir not know how evil there cousins were?
I guess, that was the unique nature of Yudisthir. He was extremely forgiving and peace-loving, and expected the same from everyone. He may have imagined a lot of things, murder plots, usurping of throne, etc,\, but maybe he never imagined, not even in his wildest dreams, that his cousins would end up disrobing his wife. Disrobing the Kulvadhu in front of fathers-in-law, brothers-in-law, as well as outsiders, was probably the most perverted, and disgusting thought that could come to someone's mind.
I am not defending Yudisthir, coz I am not really a fan of his. And yes, what he did was TERRIBLE, especially, when he remained silent, seeing Draupadi's plight. However, if I have to choose one, then I would say that Duryodhan and others were more responsible.

Q2.

Was Bhism really to be blamed for amba's fate, wat about her alleged lover- whose mistake was it?
You are right. Bhishma probably got more punishment than he deserved. However, we have to remember, that women of 3000 B.C., had a very difficult life, if rejected for marriage.
Such women were considered cursed, and society stigmatized them.
Today, unmarried women, can become doctors and engineers, and earn their own living. But that was a different age.
So, I guess, given the fate, to which Amba was hurled, she probably did not have the patience to think in a different way.

Q3.
Why did pandu with his wives and sons did not return to hastinapur before his death? did pandu ever want pandavas to become kings of hastinapur?

Q4.

Why does kunti not reveal to pandu about karna (or try to search or just confirm his death - she knew with his kavach he would not be dead) while she is ready to reveal to pandu about durvasas mantra - like wise satyavati is ready to reveal about vyasa to bhisma (both satyavati and kunti were faced with dilemma of their respective generation being childless)
Kunti's abandonment of Karna was wrong, but she cannot be blamed completely. Given the fact that society treats unmarried mothers like hell, EVEN TODAY, I guess, it would be wrong to blame her.
Maybe she feared losing Pandu. Such questions are easy to ask, but difficult to answer.
It's easy to call Kunti a coward, but how many women have the guts to tell their husband of her illegitimate child, born from another man?
However, I feel, she should have told the Pandavas, after Pandu's death, especially when she witnessed a budding enmity between Karna and Arjun. That was a huge blunder, that Kunti made. There, she should have shown more courage.
In that way, she would have made life easier for Karna.
As for Satyavati, I think her situation was different. Parashara, Ved Vyas' father, took away Ved Vyas with him. So, Satyavati probably did not have the responsibility to bring up a son, out of wedlock. However, Karna was left to Kunti's care. So, her situation was more difficult.

Q5
What is the significance of the name 'kauravas' while i understand pandavas meant sons of pandus?
Kauravas come from Kuru. The Pandavas were also Kauravas. However, due to the rivalry, I guess, they were not called so. This is my assumption.

Q6
Why only Arjun (during the commencement of battle) is suffering from conflict between fighting his relatives - what about other pandavas -esp yudi was he not supposed to be the epitome of dharma?
This one is difficult to answer.


Thanks in advance - i hope for an interesting post!
Your welcome. However, if I have offended u, then I apologize. 😊
shruthiravi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: hpenz4evr

Hi dear beloved members,

I would like put before u all some questions from our Mahabharata (points which are difficult for me to understand by myself), it would be nice if we are able to find some good answers (i know - there are never going just one simple answer😉)

Q1.
Who should be blamed for draupadi's vastra haran - Yudhistr for selling her or duryodhan/dushassan for harassing her - who was at greater fault (note: whether one repented for their action is not the question here) - which is the bigger crime - selling a wife or to strip a woman?

Both Yudhi and Duri were responsible. Yudhi had his misplaced dharma which made him do that. He thought since he has staked his brothers he had the right to stake Draupadi also. He treated her as his property with no rights of her own. And the Dharma on those days even today agrees that a woman is a man's property.

Even other Pandavas were equally guilty. None of them decided to go against Yudhi telling it is not right.But the problem was even if they have gone Drit would have ruled in favour of his son's only unless Bhisma took some firm action which he also didn't do.

Q2.

Was Bhism really to be blamed for amba's fate, wat about her alleged lover- whose mistake was it?
Swayamvar meant a girl had the right to choose her life partner. Bhism violated that rule and took Amba with his might. Before abducting he didn't ask her whether she was willing to marry his brother which should have been done as per the swayamvar rule. So the abduction was wrong.
And since the one Amba was supposed to wed again had the misplaced dharma and rejected her , all her anger was directed towards Bhism though her suitor was equally responsible for her fate

Q3.
Why did pandu with his wives and sons did not return to hastinapur before his death? did pandu ever want pandavas to become kings of hastinapur?
I guess Pandu had renounced the kingdom because he got cursed that if he ends up having conjugal relations he will die. So maybe to control his desires he took an astectic life. His wives followed him as per the Patni dharma of those days.
He def had plans of making his son the king. That is why he asked Kunti to get their first born from Lord Dharmaraj so that he will rule righteously. Don't know when he actually had plans to go back because death came to him unexpectedly

Q4.

Why does kunti not reveal to pandu about karna (or try to search or just confirm his death - she knew with his kavach he would not be dead) while she is ready to reveal to pandu about durvasas mantra - like wise satyavati is ready to reveal about vyasa to bhisma (both satyavati and kunti were faced with dilemma of their respective generation being childless)
Kunti was afraid of the stigma attached to the unwed mother. Satyavati had no option as her children died childless. But Kunti had the boon of getting children from different Gods. So the need didn't arise in her to reveal about Karna and jeopardize her reputation. Only when she understood her silence was going to result in a major war she opened her mouth.
I blame Kunti more for the war than Draupadi. Drau only asked for justice which was her right, but Kunti in the name of misplaced sanskaars hid a truth which had a direct bearing on the war.

Q5
What is the significance of the name 'kauravas' while i understand pandavas meant sons of pandus?
Pandavas were actually demi gods born to kunti from different Gods whom she revoked through mantra. They were adopted by Pandu. Hence Pandavas.
Whereas Kauravas were born to Dhrit and Gandhari only. Hence in real terms they are more kuru princes hence Kauravas.

Q6
Why only Arjun (during the commencement of battle) is suffering from conflict between fighting his relatives - what about other pandavas -esp yudi was he not supposed to be the epitome of dharma?

Arjun represents a set of people who have the right set of values and talent. They want to fight the injustice but face a lot of turmoil because of relations. Yudhi relation is not important, only Dharma is. Bhim thinks only about goals and the means to achieve it. But Arjun considers relations. And when relations comes right and wrong is always there in relations. He loves some relations but situation force him to fight those relatives. He represents that set of people who face a moral dilemma. Hence BG was given to him. To make him know why he is fighting and for what he is fighting. He is capable of understanding BG unlike others. I mean we all can imagine the pain of the person who was forced to kill his own brother in the battle.

Thanks in advance - i hope for an interesting post!

Jin. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: hpenz4evr

Hi dear beloved members,

I would like put before u all some questions from our Mahabharata (points which are difficult for me to understand by myself), it would be nice if we are able to find some good answers (i know - there are never going just one simple answer😉)
Before i answer, lovely and thought-provoking questions. My thoughts may a little bit different from others, however i would not like to judge me on personal level but only read and think of the answers.

Q1.
Who should be blamed for draupadi's vastra haran - Yudhistr for selling her or duryodhan/dushassan for harassing her - who was at greater fault (note: whether one repented for their action is not the question here) - which is the bigger crime - selling a wife or to strip a woman?

Well Yudi first lost himself then he staked panchali. However it is said that when a man loses himself his each and every possession belongs to the one who lost it. But as a servant panchali could have worked for Dury as a servant but not as a prostitute. But since she was termed as prostitute by karna having married 5 men they took liberty of disrobing her. VH wasnt expected since it is not Kshatriya dharma nor a slave right exercised on a married woman/slave or even unmarried. However all the elders especially Bhishma (who unabashedly said Dury is not wrong) Pandavas had to be quite and the eldest/head of the family have said it was their dharma. If only Bhishma would have opposed without wasting a second they'd have beaten Dury black and blue. Hence I'd fault with Yudi as he couldnt oppose to dice game in first place (due to his eternal vow taken) but more with Dury as it is not the way you treat a slave because at the end of the day she is a woman.

Q2.

Was Bhism really to be blamed for amba's fate, wat about her alleged lover- whose mistake was it?

Yes, Bhishm is completely blamed for Amba's fate because when he abducted her from the swayamvar he defeated her lover Shalva in a duel and took her to his father. His father rejected her. So how did he expect her lover to taker her back after having LOST her and REJECTED by someone as a second hand case. He was a kshatriya afterall. And it was Bhishma's duty to accept her as his wife since he won her. But he didnt. (ot of context, but i'd like to add that Bhishma had no right to win a swayamvar for his father since either the king himself should win or his "uttaradhikaari" i.e heir in waiting, can win for him. Bhishma wasnt the heir, he gave up his throne, so what right he has to gatecrash a swayamvar. That itself is a mistake as pointed out by parshrama, he had to accept her. But he had given importance to his eternal vow and had not broke it even after Satyavathi herself asked him to break. Hence his oath is the reason for Mahabharata war as pointed by Vyasa)

Q3.
Why did pandu with his wives and sons did not return to hastinapur before his death? did pandu ever want pandavas to become kings of hastinapur?
Pandu wanted to live in exile for few years and return only after get ridding or nullifying the curse, which obviously would take many years or would not be nullified at all. Pandu always knew that his sons would be the kings because Dritrashtra was only an acting King, his coronation did not happen.

Q4.

Why does kunti not reveal to pandu about karna (or try to search or just confirm his death - she knew with his kavach he would not be dead) while she is ready to reveal to pandu about durvasas mantra - like wise satyavati is ready to reveal about vyasa to bhisma (both satyavati and kunti were faced with dilemma of their respective generation being childless)
According to the shastras those days, a kshatriya woman's second husband's children or children to any man after her first marriage are considered as her first husband's children only. However this does not apply to children born before her first marriage. They are called as children of their original father and illegitimate. Hence she does not reveal about Karna as he would not be called as Pandu's son and hence not the heir to hastinapur. Satyavathi on the other hand revealed about Vyasa due to helplessness as brahmins could be called to mate with woman whose husbands could not bear a child (here they are dead). Bhishma however say Vyasa as no threat to hastinapur throne as he was born before marriage to shantanu and right now he needed him and it was socially acceptable to call brahmins too..

Q5
What is the significance of the name 'kauravas' while i understand pandavas meant sons of pandus?
Pandavas are kauravas too that mean born of "kuru" race. But Kauravas did not want to count them as one among them, so they called them pandavas, born of "pandu" but not "kuru" just to differentiate them. Pandavas however took that name positively and were more than glad to accept it as it has name of their father.


Q6
Why only Arjun (during the commencement of battle) is suffering from conflict between fighting his relatives - what about other pandavas -esp yudi was he not supposed to be the epitome of dharma?
Yudi was epitome of dharma, so he knew that fighting his guru, pitamah and his cousins is his dharma at that time. Hence he need not be convinced. Bheem doesnt understand dharma and adharma, for him there are only his loved ones and enemies and right then, everyone on the other side were his enemies. So he too was ready. But Arjuna was not perfect, he was too attached to the people on the other side and he is always in a learning process like a typical man. Hence he needed to be convinced.


Thanks in advance - i hope for an interesting post!

hpenz4evr thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#15
Thanks for all your well reasoned replies.
Let me just sum up the entire answers what we have received in this Post.

Q1. Yudi was acting perfectly within his dharma at that time when he staked draupadi but more than duri - the elders of the sabha like bhism, dhri, drona, vidur were to blame. ( No wonder yudi is not held more responsible for his actions - even today many husbands do treat their wifes lil more than property in gamble but alas even the stripping has also not stopped- verdict still many yudis, dury continue to harass and humiliate draupadis)

Q2. Bhimsa was to be blamed for amba s state - she was within her limit to revenge of bhisma. As rightly said amba was the victim she alone had to right to determine the depth of her suffering and met out relevant punishment. (Poor girl, but wish she had been less harsh with bhism)

Q3.Pandu did indeed want yudi to be the king. Just fate that he did not return to HP and kept so much trust in his bro, dhri, to coronate yudi when it was time.

Q4. Both cowardice and well played politics on the part of kunti. even woman,purely evil.

Q5. Kauravas = kuru princes.

Q6. Arjuna was the only person who both wanted to fight for justice (not dharma) at the same time did not want to fight his relatives for the sake of kingdom. As rightly said he was perhaps the only pandav who was perceptive and at the same time humble enough to come forward and understand BG. Heck he was selected by god himself for imparting BG ( I sometimes think that krishna himself created this conflict in the mind of arjun right before the battle so that he can gift his BG to all of us)

Once again thank you all lovely people. Will be back soon with my next set of questions.
Edited by hpenz4evr - 11 years ago

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