META chai party: RK as James Dean - Page 12

Created

Last reply

Replies

249

Views

15.3k

Users

19

Likes

735

Frequent Posters

-Nafisa- thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 5
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Foucaults-qalam

@ nafs


Thanks for your comments.

I keep on getting this line thrown all over the forum: it's a tv show for entertainment, sit back and relax etc. May i ask you to read the opening post of this thread, where I set out the parameters of a META discussion. The whole point of this is to discuss those issues that abutt on the creation of the show, and to question and challenge the narrative integrity of its structure and intention.

And logic should be expected from any human creation, whether fictional or not. The fact that it is a TV show is in my view not an excuse for lazy writing and poor characterisation.

Re your line re romance novels. There are romance novels and romance novels. There is Wuthering Heights and then there is the utter tripe written by Barbara Cartland. Both in the same genre, but of a very different calibre.

But even Barabara Cartland for all her soppy idiots as heroines and her cloyingly HURTFUL use of ellipses, used plot and character well. Ok, she used the SAME characters with different names 700 times, but she did. And she got her historical setting, detail etc quite pat. ( she copied it all from Heyer, but we won't get into that mess here)

If the writers in Madhubala get to even her abominably low standard of narrative consistency, I shall be happy.


FQ you are a writer that's why you want to understand RK's nature, to perfect the story as much as possible, but was it SD that said knowing Indian serials they won't go deeply enough and likened it to Maan in Geet, all of a sudden went to the opposite extreme of what he was... But the romantic novels is used only because applepeaches said it's real life and theory of destiny and kindered spirits applies in romantic fiction only, so it's just my point of view that this serial is romantic fiction so it does apply also in this context, I've given two examples already when RK's dialogues have shown that this is the way the CV's are going with the story.

Die hard romantics like us all, whether it's Barbara Cartland or Emily Bronte can appreciate what the CV's are trying to give us, the spontaneous RK is entertaining and girly nature of us all remembers our romantic fiction reading days and indulges now with hindi serials.
Namita-M thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 5
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: shridevigaddam


Anything will be chalega for me. I will just tag along with you guys 😆


Hi Shri, I think Madhu will fall in love first. Don't ask why I think so, its just what I feel. Like how she defended him against her Mom!
Nabakov_Musings thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
omg , pippa , shridevignam and apple and peaches. you guys are incredible . i feel completely talentless.lol.
applenpeaches thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Escape.My.Love.

omg , pippa , shridevignam and apple and peaches. you guys are incredible . i feel completely talentless.lol.

EML,

Thanks.. We like it when people fan our already inflated ego.. You are welcome to join our discussion.. Love to hear your views..


- FG

Edited by applenpeaches - 12 years ago
applenpeaches thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago

Namz,

Did you read what I wrote? You read my mind...

- FG

0-SD-0 thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Foucaults-qalam


Well, to be honest I do know a few decent ones, but they are exceptions. The qualities I describe above is not racial profiling. It is more an inevitable product of the inherent and completely normativ e cultural misogyny that is prevalent in Indian society. If you get half decent men at all, they are rare, and norm defying miracles. But conceded, a few such miracles do exist. We always have outliers in a statistical matrix.

And I don't think the norm will change unless there is a change in society's structure re the rights and roles of women, and an intelllectual acceptance of their equality both by men and by women.


FQ,

I cannot see what sort of social structural changes or intellectual evolution and acceptance from the same society of men and women equally; will pave the path of psychological changes in men or women's traits. I do not like to form general equations until I have felt what can really help us. I am thinking on as I write here.

One of the deadly Sin is Pride. However, in my life I have encountered cases of acute arrogance in girls and boys from emotionally secure families and also from emotionally disturbed families. Arrogance is New Sin that I see today which hurts people to the core. It produces Mental Rape on the subjects who are subjected to that attitude and I mean it. What RK does to MB is nothing as compared to what I have seen from people around us, especially our relatives and general populace in our native place. Well some are city bred too.. Ignorance and Envy too sometimes has left us shattered. Arrogance stems from step-up Ego, a compensation to an absence.

If you recall last week I said, not all people are so fortunate even if they are ready to go last mile with their hard work, optimism, determination and grit. And I cited that in context of family, because I know the details. Likewise today I included my father and brother in that men category that I don't have respect for.

Why I included them ? My brother can do anything for his sisters. My father has open mind better suited to his daughters than any other loving father that we know of. Then inspite of these qualities why I want to say what you said first. Two reasons
  1. The unconscious streaks of character weakness that surfaces causing hurt to sensitive souls like us three women (mom, me and sis).
  2. Probably their response was normal and our reaction is abnormal as we live in state of utopia. (Like you said Madhubala -the resolved character and yet perceived as the abnormal one)
If a man in this society has been put on the pedestal to be upholder of morals and ethics and if men get the upperhand in this patriarchal society, then I would rather see them behaving as one. Not less Not more. Just the fair levels.

But then, when I emotionally understand and trace the characteristic weakness to environmental factors of upbringing or born psychological weaknesses, it pressurizes me to accept their weakness. Here a wrong happens for accepting it. And accepting one wrong breeds more wrongs. This is how the disease affects the society. But the good deed of acceptance is deemed as being compassionate, sometimes social charity, sometimes love and sometimes tolerance and forgiveness.

If there was a social rule, that if the patron of the family becomes inefficient, then the efficient matron can take over, if the transition from patriarchal to matriarchal house rules and vice-versa was easy enough, if the legal structures, the law and enforcement agencies functional enough to facilitate changes in families in formal manner, with judicial recourse available, then I would not have cribbed "They are the most disgusting, repressed, multiple standard following, hypocritical, unthinking, convenient way out taking, misogynist idiots on the planet."


The same would be true for women too once they get the ruling power. In the end, it all about who chairs the meeting, who has veto power, who has influential power etc etc. Decisions and Actions from the Powers that Be. Operations in the alleyways of Power.

For me problem is in the psyche itself, the individual.

RK is traumatized and he develops behavioural problems.
Some who are not RK may not be traumatized. Their resilient psyche would have helped them to reconcile with circumstances.
Likewise a % of indian men in reality have behavioral issues.
The developed countries have shrinks.
Countries like India have visits to shrinks under taboo category, or taken up only when imminent judicial or other enforcement procedures are in queue waiting to happen.

Does it help us in any manner ?
The only way it helps the oppressed is take the cudgel in his hands and action the right. When backed by ethics and intelligence such retaliation is courage personified and when unintelligently done, a matter of suicidal or idiotic attempt.

What am I saying is are we going to account psychological factors when we wish for social structural changes ?

Foucaults-qalam thumbnail
13th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
@sd .
I take your points for interpersonal relationships. But let us look at wider societal issues.

Consider, for example, the issue of sexual harrassment and rape in India
Yes, it is criminalised, but with one of the lowest rates of conviction in the world. But also consider social reaction to it: women invite the male gaze by behaving inappropriately, by dressing a certain way. And this isn't a laddish discussion over beers by a bunch of louts-- these are actual statements given in the media by ministers, police officials and even women's rights groups.

This is so infuriating that it makes you want to pull you hair out.

Have these ignorant bacteria been to Amsterdam? Any European city centre? There women don't wear burkas. They wear what they please, even highly revealing, sexually suggestive clothing. And guess what their rape statistics are? Almost zero. Because however she chooses to dress, a woman's body and her consent remain HER PROPERTY AT ALL TIMES! Is that so hard to understand?

These people MUST accept that women aren't the problem. The problem isthe sickened state of mind of your men. Controlling women won't get rid of that sickness. As long as you continue to make sex and its discussion tabboo you will continue to fetishise it and continue to breed a sick amd festering society.


This societal change will certainly lead to men who are healthier and not absolute posterior sphincter- ringed orifices.


Edited by Foucaults-qalam - 12 years ago
Foucaults-qalam thumbnail
13th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
Another issue is that of cheating on their wives or girfriends. Indian men cheat a lot. Like a lot. I do not think they even know the meaning of fidelity. Because I do not live in India, I often interact with business associates there as a kind of laddish friend. After, of course, they've tried their luck with me and I have slapped them down. Becuse they have NO boundaries. To them all women, especially NRIs or 'foreigners' whom they see as 'up for it', are fair game.
As I said, knackers, kick, repeat.

So I asked one of these associates, who's wife is a beautiful actress , when he was flirting with a blonde intern on my team, why I should continue to do business with him, because clearly he is not to be trusted. Today he was cheating on his wife, tomorrow he would cheat me in business.

His reply was very enlightening re the bro code in India. Apparently, breaking promises, ethical commitments to women, 'doesn't count'. It's not the same as breaking a promise to a male friend.

Needless to say i dropped him like a hot potato. Made of excrement.

But his attitude explained a lot to me.



Edited by Foucaults-qalam - 12 years ago
Foucaults-qalam thumbnail
13th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
From Bhoomi, because: Hey! Messaging cos I still can't post and I had to share this -

Is the psyche of a person the product of dominant social attitudes or is it the other way around? that's a bit of a conundrum I suppose. When I generalize and say Indian men are terrible, I am not considering individuals I know or even interpersonal relationships. It is about dominant attitudes. I find these attitudes problematic in many ways and they all stem from one point - that a woman is lesser than a man - mentally, physically, emotionally. Her ideas, opinions, wishes, choices do not matter; in fact, she shouldn't be thinking in the first place. Indian patriarchial traditions posit that the man is the owner and the woman is his property, mentally and physically. I cite the practice of 'kanyadaan' in my support. There, the daughter is a way for the father to achieve moksha and it is a transaction between two men for their spiritual development, never mind about the woman. You say this out loud and people will tell you that all the punya of the husband is transferred to the wife in any case, and that makes things worse. WHy can't a woman earn her own punya or paap? Why, even in the matter for her moksha, which the considered end of human endeavour, should a woman be dependent on a man rather than her own actions?

@ partiarchy vs matriarchy - you know, matriarchy is a very misleading nomenclature. The only difference between patriarchy and matriarchy that I have observed (from reading about Nair traditions; I am completely ignorant of the north-eastern situation and matriarchy elsewhere, but I suspect that is the case there as well) is that power belongs to the husband's father, elder brother or the husband himself in patriarchy, while the mother's brother is all powerful in a matriarchial situation. The woman's rights over her body are given to her visiting husband, while her financial rights are in effect vested in her brother. How is this in any way better than a traditional patriarchy?

The change I want to see is equality. Nothing more, nothing less. The same moral, legal, economic, intellectual, spiritual standards applied to individuals irrespective of their sex. Notice I don't use the term gender, because I believe that as long as you continue to classify people on the basis of socially-defined gender you are not going to achieve anything. Most of all, I want people to have the freedom of choice. The freedom to choose their identity, careers, religion, education - the works. I do not see this in India right now, which is the reason for my cribbing. Even men of today's age choose to follow these norms of a different time, even though they know they aren't fair, simply because they make their lives easier. Equality and respect go together. If you begin by thinking I am lesser than you, how can you respect me? And if you don't respect me and my rights, you continue to reaffirm inequality...

These are ideals, and I know that. I get a lot of people telling me ideals are impractical, and I disagree vehemently. Ideals are the goal, and our lives are the means to that goal. Yes, there will always be differences, deviations if you will, but that is normal in any statistical range. We must begin to worry when deviation becomes the norm, which it has today.

That's it, I'm off the soapbox. You can all breathe!
0-SD-0 thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
FQ,

First things first. When you talk about wider societal issues, more on basic courtesy levels, I will have to withdraw examples of my brother and father from such Men-***(anything that suggests absolute disgust) category. It will be dishonourable of me.

Now deep rooted social evils need social structural changes. Agree.

And I have thought about specifically on rape/molestation as I have lived in the night-marish New Delhi that has least protection for females. Comparatively, in Hyderabad where later I shifted to, I felt secure in the Hyd society. And the reasons were very clear. The women in Hyd did not see herself weaker to confront sexual assualts. Mind it I am talking on mass-level and not newspaper reported high profile cases or sensational stories. I talk from the point of view of the pedestrian on the road.

From my point of view how that could be achieved is:
  1. The Subject (Woman) respects herself
  2. The Subject knows her rights.
  3. The Subject feels protected when deciding to confront.
  4. The Subject has stamina enough to lodge complaint and withstand questioning.

1 & 2 -There should be programs that feed the esteem values and rights to women that changes perception across the society to an issue.
3 & 4 -There should be law enforcement reforms like Witness protection reforms, improvement on complaint and recourse procedures. There should be no terrorizing of the victims.

Agree with your faster turnaround of judicial process.

The Political leaders running the Human Resources Ministry have now for several years not allowed any police reforms to happen. So people are aware of the issue, they know what needs to be done on TASKS Level and yet they are handicapped by Governing Agencies.

Do you call this a society issue ? No.
Again I will say, frustration levels will reach its high, people will come together and they may force the Govt to take some action.

The problem is again Powers That Be who do not want people perceptions to change, not maintaining any kind of resources for the citizens. It is the same Power issue that runs from Village heads to State Heads of the country. Who are these heads ? The Goons.

You know what do I want ?
I want a magical potion to reform the Govt first. Because I know for sure then 50% of my so called social evils will just go away.

And under no circumstance I will call Govt & Political or Bureaucratic machinery and administration as Society. And I see EVILS in these places in present times. These are really LOUD for me.

Elsewhere, other perceptive small social evils which are slow poison to society, those always need to be nipped in bud. And that can happen only when one knows that recourse is available.
And again the need is People who can think, act and stand up for what they think is right. Because unless there are people who are willing to confront, enforcement agencies will not be able to formalize any kind of recourse that helps towards moral health of the society.
Here I see the need of social change. And the Indian persona is the LAZY types, it falls under the Third Fish Category. It will never work for any change coz its lazy even to feel and confront.

Related Topics

Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".