Mannat Har Khushi Paane Ki: Episode Discussion Thread - 23
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CRYING FAMILY 29.7
Gen 5 Storyline
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21 years of Mujhse Shaadi Karogi
Things I liked in episode 46
Originally posted by: adiana12
Hi Shyamala, srry for the late response. Gr8 analysis again and that bit on a Agra - London alliance had me in splits.😆
Our dear Begumsa is definitely blind as a bat - she lacks vision and she has no foresight or for that matter even hindsight 😉 And she is supposed to marg darshaaning Jalaluddin Mohammad Akbar 😲
As for the totally unacceptable manner the couple had while appealing to the Emperor - why the 16th century, even today in the feudal systems still prevalent in many Indian villages, no common ordinary folk can speak out of turn even if they are in the right, much less the manner adopted by these two - even today in Rajasthan, the most feudal of them all, the land where this Jodha is supposedly from, when the 'Hukum' passes, the ordinary folk have their heads on the ground - and this is today - then imagine how it must have been 500 years ago - and we have a Jodha finding fault as usual with her Patisa - and then berating him to his face later, with half baked information - and she is supposed to be intelligent 😲
I fail to see any aspect of said intelligence or foresight or anything else that remotely resembles sense
Originally posted by: sashashyam
Folks,
Episode 47: L'affaire du farman
This was the only segment worth mentioning in the whole episode. For Mynavati's prolonged advice to Jodha about what falls to a queen's lot, and about the fact that man ho ya na ho, use Raja ka nirnay maan na hi padta hai, was clearly so much water off a duck's back as far as Jodha was concerned. She obviously let all this in thru one ear and let it out thru the other.😉
I liked Maina's advice to Jodha, but then again like Ela said, every husband-wife relationship is different. Maina is not the one dealing with the likes of MA and BEK. She is not the one whose husband is behaving like a middle school bully at this time. Jodha is dealing the best she can in the situation she has been dumped in. And if she is not coming to terms with this drastic change in her life fast enough then that is completely understandable.
Sending the unwanted Shahi farman back to Jalal thru a servant was unnecessary , impolite, and ill-advised on Jodha's part, especially after her mother's parting homily about the need for a Rani to show obedience to her husband, but that is Jodha all over. After all, she listened to another such homily about the danger for Amer if she did not accept Jalal's gifts, and then came out and deliberately burnt the shaadi ka joda, endangering all of Amer with this heedless, self-centred gesture. Uske saamne yeh farman kya cheez hai?
Sending the Farman back was rude but so like Jodha to do it. She really knows how to push Jalal's buttons.😆 Any surprise as to why Jalal cannot get her out of his mind?I for one cannot understand why Jalal needs to force his Shahi firman on her; it seems to have become a matter of his ego now. She, having predictably left the Diwan-e-Am before Jalal showed his soft side, is ready to bite his head off. And so she does, metaphorically speaking.
🤣 Jodha, the little head snapper.
Is sansaar mein aisa kuch hai hi nahin jo aap humein de sakte hain ( it is another matter that niyati lands Jodha a left handed blow, and forces her to eat these grand words,😉 and use the despised farman to save Moti, and that very soon!) ..Jo vyakti sirf cheen na jaanta ho, wo kisiko kya de sakta hai?.. And then on to the rest of the tirade about what Jalal had done to that little boy.
Jalal probably considers it beneath his dignity to explain that he did not punish that Hindu couple after all, so he merely tells her, with ill-suppressed anger, grasping her arm hard: Adhuri jaankaari gunaah hoti hai, Jodha.. Hum kya kar sakte hain aur kya nahin, yeh wo 6 saal ka bachcha bhi achchi tarah jaanta hai..
He then descends from the general to the personal, asserting, as far as the farman is concerned, that he could have forced her to accept it in front of her parents, par humein aapko apni taaqat dikhane ka koyi iraada nahin..Finally, his face mere inches from hers, Shahenshah ka adab kiya jaata hai, us se khauff khaya jaata hai.. Bar bar hamare sabr ki aazmayish na karo, ki uska sabr tooth jai..
Jodha's reaction: She is hardly the kind who will wonder which adhoori jaankaari he is referring to, and try to ascertain the details, which must by now have been broadcast across the harem. She has never been able to put herself in another's shoes and see things from that person's point of view, and her attitude to facts is selective; they are welcome only if they buttress her pre-conceived notions. So she will hug her resentment to herself and luxuriate in it.
Methinks, that is an unfair judgement of Jodha. Why should she not believe what happened in front of her eyes to that couple? It is not as if she deliberately chose to ignore what Jalal did afterwards, she is completely unaware. As far as the Harem thing goes. She usually does not hobnob with the haremites since she is not into paan and hukkah and is as different from them as chalk and cheese. She keeps herself busy, chewing Kanha's ears off with her chitchat, cleaning his mandir, basuri, mookut, adjusting and readjusting his morpankh, etc,etc.
Unfortunately Jalal is the lucky recipient of all her ghrina. But patni apne pati ko attitude nahi dikhayegi toh phir kisko dikhayegi? That is her janmasiddha abhikar.
But it seems that Jalal's last words give her some pause, for she does not fling the farman after Jalal's departing figure. Maybe even our veerangana is a tad afraid of him, after all!
And so we start all over again, with the next round of the battle of this quintessentially Odd Couple: Rhett and Scarlett, or Petruchio and Kate: take your pick.
Its been a while since I read "Taming of the Shrew" but I love Gone with the Wind. Rhett and Scarlett would've made each other's life hell if Rhett had hung around. To me they didn't seem like a couple which was made to last a lifetime. Good thing he left. I'd rather Rhett had chosen Melanie(now that would seem like an odd couple but the chances of them lasting a lifetime seem higher to me). Instead Melanie got that dreamer boy Ashley. 😒 Scarlett should've married Ashley(they would very odd too😆). She would have slapped him out of his dreams of the good ole days.😆
Rooh ki baatein: Along with the scene of a sleepless Jalal deeply disturbed by Jodha's accusation that he knows only how to snatch things from people, there was a charming helping of this staple. When Jodha asserts that Jalal was wrong in claiming that he had no heart, and thus was incapable of loving, what struck me was Jalal's bitter, self-deprecating comment: Haan, Jodha.. Shayad yahi faraq hota hai soch aur sach ke beech.. Faraq ek aaleem ki soch aur ek anpadh jaahil ki soch ka..
Bitter because it reveals the depth of regret that Jalal now feels at his inability to read and write, a regret that leads him to downgrade his phenomenal intellectual strengths - not to speak of his unbelievable ability to retain anything that was said or read out to him kantasta - by labelling himself an anpadh jaahil.
😭 This soul talk was one of the best. Very touching.
NB: A historical footnote for those interested in such matters. The Emperor Akbar and Queen Elizabeth I of England were contemporaries for practically the whole of their very long reigns: Akbar from 1556-1605 and Elizabeth I from 1558-1603. They also appear to have both had a very rough and endangered childhood
After her mother, Anne Boleyn, was executed for treason by her father, King Henry VIII, the Princess Elizabeth was always walking a tightrope with her terrifying father. Later, she was constantly exposed to the risk being executed for treason by her elder stepsister Queen Mary, whenever some of the Protestant opponents of the rigidly Catholic Mary plotted to assassinate her and replace her by the non-Catholic Elizabeth.
Jalal seems to have been equally at risk from his uncle, and then was always on the run from his father's enemies in the court of Sher Shah Suri.
That they both surmounted all this childhood trauma and went to become very great rulers who wrote their names in history is truly remarkable.
On a jocular note, in my old post, my chronically tongue in cheek friend, Moontide, had suggested
What if the nuptial-political alliance was not between Amer and Agra...but between the last of the Tudors and the best Mughal of them all? Would we be rooting for Elizabeth-Akbar right now?
Then who would have changed whom? Would the Tudor dynasty have continued? Or was that a healthy way of having kept the British colonization of Hindustan at bay? Or would that pre-pone the reverse colonisation process of today by several centuries...meaning would it have been a colonization of the British by the Mughals/Hindustanis?
To which I replied as follows, and this gives a good idea of the relative strengths of Tudor England and Mughal India to those misled by British accounts the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
I am so glad to find someone who actually reads and likes my footnotes! As for the Agra-London alliance, it would never have got off the ground, as London would have seemed, to the successors of Bairam Khan, a tinpot capital of a tinpot kingdom, huddling for safety behind the protective width of the English Channel. And riven by religious discord, with its Queen constantly under threat from the Catholic Church, acting thru Philip II of Spain, a hugely powerful and rich empire, all the hype and hoopla about the defeat of the Armada notwithstanding.
Agra would have thought it an unequal match, and then again Elizabeth was no hoor pari to bewitch a Shahenshah, even in the highly airbrushed portraits exchanged before royal marriages in those days, a practice that often had disastrous consequences.Remember Anne of Cleves, Henry VIII's Wife no. 4? When she arrived in London, she proved to be so
Have you watched The Tudors? Beautiful series. A little graphic but good nonetheless.
Anne of Cleves had a lucky escape. 😆
Shyamala/Aunty/Akka/Di
Originally posted by: devkidmd
Things I liked in episode 46
1)Jalal punishing the couple. They were seriously out of line in the way they put their complaint forward. The scene however did highlight how disconnected, disenchanted and helpless the common man felt with the people who were ruling over them. The suppressed resentment they felt towards these "outsiders". And outsiders they were. Even though Jalal was born in Hindustan, most of his courtiers and the top brass did come from beyond the HinduKush at that point in time, and lorded over the natives. Later it changed.I wish that Jalal would have looked beyond the superficial and heard out the complete story though. But I guess we have to give him some leeway here. He is still learning the ropes and frankly does not have a good loyal strong supporter who could advise him in a most honest and unbiased manner. Atgha fills that to some extent a little later on.2)Jalal-little boy: I have to say I was very impressed with the clear eyed upfront manner in which he addressed the Emperor and we got to see a different side of Jalal. He released the boy's parents but still did not address the core issue of harassment of the Hindus by his officers.😕3)Jodha-Kanha Talk: For me this really reflects how lonely Jodha is in Agra. Apart from Mothi and a few daasis she really does not have anyone. HB is there but that relationship has its limitations and restrictions. With the way Jalal behaves with her she is truly on her own.4)Jalal's pep talk with Rukaiyya. Of course you can rely on good old Rukaiyya to make sure to rub salt on the wounded ego by asking him how he feels about the farman being refused by Jodha.😆5)The shameful look on Bharmal's face when Jalal talks about nazarane barsenge. Bharmal's expression said what exactly Amer had lost in this transaction i.e: self respect which no amount of Mansabs can redeem.6)The classy way in which Jodha declined the Farman. Jalal didn't know what to think. Whether to be angry or feel flattered that she kept his maan. Glad that she refused it considering what was really planned by the Emperor and his BEK at her expense.I'll tackle #47 in another post. 😊
Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Devki.
One thing I have to say for you, you are entirely predictable!I am a little hesitant to respond because I get the feeling that my posts upset you.😕 I assure you I do not have a personal grudge against Jalal. I like him a lot in fact. It is just that I usually try to see the POV of the underdog.
As for the Mughals being outsiders, the peasant, who would never have dared to address his Hindu overlord like this - he would have been whipped as punishment for such temerity - should have been doubly careful with outsiders. It is commonsense.The peasant was out of line (I've said this before).
As for Jodha's adhoori jaanakaari ( in your other post)why does that phrase of Jalal's not make her think, and then investigate? Moti can surely do it for her, what else is she there for anyway? Every baandi in the harem would have been gossiping about it. But Jodha's mind is not just closed, it is padlocked shut.Well, this is during the farmaan issue in her room. For now this is the first that she is aware of the adhoori jaankari, and that's why the anger. And you are right, at this time she is resistant to anything positive in Jalal. Later on, Salima does put her in her place about the kid.
Yes, she is lonely in Agra, but then so is every new bride in her sasural, which would most likely have been very different from Bhanpur. What if she had had a Rajput saas like Lalita Pawar or a nanad like Meerabai's? She should thank Kanha on her knees for Hamida, who is one of a kind, complaning about her son to her bahu!This is like comparing the loneliness one feels when one moves from one state, leaving family and friends behind to another within India to the loneliness one feels when one leaves India, family and friends and moves alone to small town USA. Totally different kind of loneliness. Religion, food, culture, language, mannerisms, clothing everything is different.
And no Rajput husband, royal or other, would have ever tolerated being spoken to by his wife the way Jodha talks to Jalal. Maharana Udai Singh would have straightaway sent any such impertinent wife to the kaalkotri.That may be true but then who knows what goes on behind closed doors?As for the soul talk, I suspect you loved it because Jalal refers to Jodha as an aaleem and to himself as an anpadh jaahil!😉Now this is really not fair.
As for what Bharmal has lost, well, if a Rajput neighbour like Pratap had attacked and conquered Amer,. as Daadisa was saying, would that have been preferable for the sammaan of this roly poly good for nothing chap? He thrives on the Mughal connection all his life, so let us not have any talk of what he has lost please😉!And I absolutely agree that he thrived under the Mughals. I was just making a comment on his expression. And these are still early days, he is allowed to feel shame for what he had to do to save his behind. And the truth is no amount of material wealth can replace a blow to one's self respect(at least not so soon). It can certainly soften it.
Well, I cannot do any more and I was not even planning to do this, but this kind of explanation for that couple's folly, and Jodha's shuttered mind, gets my goat!😉I am sorry, not my intention to do that.😔
Shyamala Aunty
Dear Shyamala Aunty,
Good to see you in fighting spirits. Seems like the bonfires help after all.😉
Again not wishing to get into debates but cannot help pointing out that expectations of a realistic 16th century behaviour from any of Ekta's characters is a futile exercise. If we look at JA the serial using that lens, only Jalal, a few Agra folks (to a very large extent, I must admit, in the initial episodes) and Dadisaa, come across as behaving true to the period and their characters.
Although the serial presentation of the behaviour is highly unrealistic, should we not grant that the feelings of the other side -
- - the shame of having become a lackey (a mansabdar from an independent even if minor king) even if by choice that is shaped by situation
- - the anger at being treated as second citizens or worse in their own land by the as yet unaccepted settler conquerors or rulers
- - the rage of a woman who is walled in from all sides by the times, the situation, , her own ideals, and the inability of her own family to protect her against the person who proves the most powerful and hence to her the most responsible for her ordeal (Even Gandhari held lord Krishna responsible for the vinash unleashed by the war and for not preventing it! reel Jodha - Gandhari comparison unintended😉)
Even though postcolonial theory did not exist in those days, these feelings are all quite valid in colonised/ conquered people.They are of a culture that is still fighting tooth and nail the unrelenting juggernaut of the powerful Mughals. An alien race, different culture and religion - all are hard to reconcile to differences. Precisely why we appreciate and respect Akbar, who had/ developed the royal, political and personal vision and capacity to go beyond these. If he was, and still is, a rarer than rare specimen of humanity then we have to accept that the lesser mortals will have a more limited vision especially when it comes to centuries-old beliefs and enmities.
Only a few, like Rana Pratap, were great and idealistic enough to be able but not willing to conquer, to prefer independence to peace through subordination and to break rather than bend. What if Jodha was one such but hemmed in by her gender and her milieu? Of course if we believe in her role in Akabr's life, it was something only a woman can achieve more readily - being sugar in a full glass of milk (as the parsee legend goes), retaining her own even after becoming one with the other and managing to add to the other without losing oneself.
As I have always maintained, the serial Jalal has been allowed (till we know where) to portray the grandeur and the complexity of a rare personality by the CVs, the script, and unquestionably Rajat. Not, alas, many/ most other characters who are created/ turned/ played monochromatic. How can we believe that the 'ice and fire' Jodha of the DEK (rejecting the farman) is the same one in many other scenes? It is in these rare flashes of Jodha, the character, that we (those who wish to, of course) can glimpse the rare soulmate (no, not beloved aunty! I remember your quip about lovers where one is beloved and the other lover) of a rare emperor.
Back to the boring essay now!
Warmest Regards
Ashwinee
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