Mahabharata Related Discussions - Page 9

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Well, Krishna need not have done everything the same as he did in the event he had agreed to lead the Pandava army. He could have gone as an envoy, and told them that he'd lead them to war, and that if they wished to avoid it, they'd have to sacrifice Duryodhan, Dushashan, Karna & Shakuni for insulting Draupadi. Had such a poison pill been thrown in, Dhritarashtra would have had no choice but to go to war, despite knowing that he'd lose, since he'd just not have accepted losing Duryodhan.

It's a bit like what ASR showed. Every message that Rama sent to Ravana not only demanded that he restore Sita, but that he also demanded that Ravana take refuge in Rama. That was a 'poison pill' which ensured that the demand would never be met. In fact, in one of Ravana's dialogs, when Mandodari suggested that he return Sita, he reminded her of the adjoining condition that they had thrown in.

In terms of whether it was matched or not, putting aside Krishna, it would have been better matched - Krishna vs Ashwatthama (who had those 2 ultimate weapons), Pradhyumna vs Bheeshma, Arjun vs Drona, Satyaki vs Kripa, Nakul vs Kritavarma, Yudhisthir vs Shalya, Bhima vs the Kauravas, Drupad vs Duryodhan, Shikandhi vs Shakuni, Dhrishtadyumna vs Dushashan, Samba vs Bhurishrava, Bhanu vs Karna and so on. It would have been matched. And w/ a poison pill, it would not have been up to Shakuni to sabotage a war.

It's a very nice point you have put forward Vrish but then that 'poison pill' could also have been given even with Krishna not going to lift the weapon. But they only demanded 5 villages (it's another thing that then the chance of submitting the culprits would have been negligible). Pandavas didn't formally show or stick to their intention of taking revenge of Draupadi and punishing the culprits through Krishna as their representative (their internal talks and implied by other party is different thing). That was just implicit in their past vows and Drupad family's determination. Krishna's peace visit didn't have explicit demand of such kind anyway and they showed willingness (at least Yudhishthir) to forget and forgive if Duryodhan was to give 5 villages. And that itself only proved to be sufficient 'Poison pill' you are talking about for Duryodhan (not for Shakuni or Dhritarashtra though).

That's the other thing. If the Viraat roop (not the Vishwaroop - that was what he showed Arjun in the battlefield, and the images of the Viraat roop, for instance, included the Pandavas, which wasn't there in the Vishwaroop) couldn't convince Duryodhan, neither would Krishna's decision to fight have. It didn't convince Dhritarashtra either, so neither would Krishna's decision to fight have altered that. Just b'cos Krishna was fighting didn't mean that the Pandavas could all set up a collective hammock - they could still have had mono-a-mono combats like they did, and it would still have been a fair fight.

That convinced Dhritarashtra to entertain & give farewell to Krishna and stop Duryodhan from doing any further silly attempt. But he was knowing that Krishna is not going to fight and also had hope until Geeta probably that Pandavas and Arjun might not fight. And Viraat roop is very much similar to Vishwaroop except as you said Pandavas & Yadavas were specifically mentioned as visible along side Krishna on mission on their behalf. Otherwise, Brahma, Rudra, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Marut, Agni, Sun, Yam etc all are described even in Viraat roop just like Vishwaroop. And you are talking about fair fight but I would pity Kauravas in that case. Krishna and Balram single handed fought with entire Jarasandh alliance on numerous occasions & made their fun as if they were playing with toys. So Krishna was sufficient not just for Ashwatthama but for all the Kaurava warriors to defeat in no time even one after the other.

Krishna could still have imparted the Gita the day b4 the war to not just Arjun, but everyone in the Pandava army. And in the event that Arjun was demoralized, he could have reminded him there only - didn't need to be his charioteer for that. One thing that strikes me - it must have taken him several hours of that first day to deliver the Gita, so it's a wonder that they had any time left to do any fighting @ all, let alone have Abhimanyu confront Bheeshma, and have Uttar & Sveta slain.

But why would he remind Arjun anything if he himself can finish everything in no time? And if to everyone else he could deliver Geeta, then he could have done that as charioteer also. I think Geeta must have been delivered in the early morning when the two sides were arranging their armies in vyuhas and were making strategies for the first day. It is said by people that Geeta was told by Krishna to Arjun in 1 & half hours. It wouldn't be in Chhandas/meters but a normal fluent conversation and would also not be as slow & peaceful as Nitish Bhardwaj delivers (and hence specifically Anugeeta was told later during peaceful hours to Arjun).

The 10 survivors were the 5 Pandavas, Krishna, Satyaki, Kritavarma, Kripa & Ashwathama. Ashwathama played no role in establishing any value system - in fact, he was one of the most vile characters to have survived. Kripa didn't have a role in the Pandava government, although it's stated that when the Pandavas retired, they reinstated him as the guru (but it's not known whether he continued - there is no mention of his presence in either Parikshit's nor Janamejaya's yagnas, so I doubt that he really continued). Kritavarma & Satyaki were part of Dwaraka as it devolved into a cultural mess that's decribed in Mausala Parva. Krishna continued his role, but was playing it to see the Yadavas destroyed, which could have been achieved had they too participated in this war. All the Pandavas were in Hastinapur, and retired together, so it's not like they started new dynasties.

No, I was thinking that each kingdom at least on the Pandava side should have had a survivor amongst its princes. We know that Magadha had its ruler, and that there were rulers in Gandhara & Sindhu, but not elsewhere. I was thinking that Sveta could have lived on to become the ruler of Matsya (he almost won the first day's battle, and it was his death that turned it around, and the Karuavas celebrated his death in the same way that they celebrated Abhimanyu's 🤢) Similarly, princes from Panchala, Chedi, Kekaya, Kuntibhojland, and so on could have been saved to continue their lineages. And a number of Yadavas were bound to have gotten killed b/w Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwatthama, Karna, Bhurishrava, Bhagadatta, and so on.

I agree. That would have been better picture. But those were the side effects or sacrifices of the war which were destined to happen along with it. Had Krishna resolved to war to save those princes, then war itself wouldn't have happened at first place that's my basic & fundamental premise of the argument (and I am open for the opposite view of yours as well) here so this point of lifting weapon and participating in the war for the sake of protecting the future generation becomes irrelevant and secondary. We can simply see to this as Krishna & Yadavas didn't participate in the war from the Pandava side (to make the war as destructive as possible) having equal relation with both parties and since Yadavas didn't participate, few curses were generated & Mausal Parva became the course of future.

Originally posted by: SahasranamaM

Shivang,

Even I too feel that Kripa couldn't be the part of any official ceremonies by the Pandavas post Kurukeshtra. He was among those responsible for killing Upapandavas and others. It had nothing related to war/rules/dharma..anything. It was sheer hatred from Ashwathama and Kripa was a part of it. If Ashwathama was to be punished by Krishna, why not Kripa?

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

Status wins over action.

Originally posted by: Nandiniraizaada

But wasnt Krip still their kulguru even after the war>?

Originally posted by: Nandiniraizaada

Hmm May be . But What would have they done with Krip after the war?