Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 30

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K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: krystal_watz



Also, you are avoiding one fundamental question-- Why did the US not notify the GOI and ask to withdraw Devyani before going ahead with the arrest? Was that not a violation of diplomatic norms in your view?




Based on what I read, officials in the administration on both the sides have known for months that an investigation was underway. Indians, at the behest of Khobragade, went belligerent, tried to incriminate Richard, and basically did all they could to rafa dafa the investigation in a very inappropriate way since they knew that if Richard cooperates with the US officials, Devyani would be indicted on visa fraud. At some point before last December, the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security had enough and turned it over to the US Marshals Service.
_Angie_ thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum



__________________________

.TOI excerpt:

The spokesperson also denied reports of more potential Khobragade-like cases in the US, saying the Indian government was considering a proposal to change the status of Indian domestic helps, or Indian-based domestic assistants (IBDA).

He said a proposal "considering significant changes in the status" of such helps that Indian diplomats take to the US and Europe is under consideration with the government since the beginning of last year.

The government is studying the legal aspect of it as well as the financial implications of the IBDA.

Akbaruddin said senior officials of the ministries of external affairs and finance were trying to work out a solution.

It would be interesting to see how it works out. Depending on whether the IBDA gets employed as contractual workers or regular ones they would also have to agree to giving a notice period of one to three months before quitting. If they get governed by the minimum wages fixed in India they would end up earning much less than what Devyani paid Sangeeta.
There has also been some opposition in the past from the IAS guys against the "perks" of IBDA enjoyed by the IFS. If it gets an offcial tag for the IFS the IAS wont be slow to seek similar perks and then other officials and so on. On the plus side it would help to regularise the domestic workers in the country. Along with better pay and working condition hopefully the standards and reliability of this unorganised yet a fast growing necessity in the urban areas would improve .
Looks like too much to hope for at the moment 😆 It makes more sense for the diplomats to hire local help instead. Not sure how readily such workers would be available but three hours of daily work should be sufficient to take care of most needs. One would not necessarily require a live-in maid. With adequate and good crche facilities available the nanny too can be done away with. Entertaining at odd hours at short notices could be an issue. The diplomats could adapt to a lifestyle unlike what they enjoyed back in India. Lets wait and see which way it goes.
_Angie_ thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

A question which is significant in this particular case-

Should diplomats be treated differently? Why ? Is there a rationale for granting diplomatic immunity?
I am hoping that answers to these would help to gain a clearer picture.
K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

If the entire US case is about these two contracts, then it is baloney.


It is about violation of wage laws, visa fraud and making false statements. This is page 39, and I can't believe you would question what this case is about.


Most people who have ever applied for a student visa to the US have been less than totally honest about their intentions. Most intend to settle in the US; yet most everyone state they will return back to India after studies.

Since you seem to know the settling habits of most, please also state if you think most do or most don't (return)?



I know stories from a bunch of IITians who today are big silicon valley venture capitalists who went to the US Embassy armed with bogus letters of employment in India after graduation.

Do the society a favor and turn them over.


Has society been short-changed because these guys "reneged" or lied on their applications?

It's possible that some deserving applicants lost out because someone else with a fake resume took their place. So, yes, this is unbecoming.

Some things are considered a joke/ tehnicality in the applications

Things such as?


, so let us not make it out as something terrible that has gone down.



Given the nonsense American diplomats indulge in world-wide, one would have expected better sense of reciprocity and understanding on their part.
also, richards was free to accept/ decline the amended terms of employment. She accepted. Fine, she later decided to quit (some of us believe that is because she wanted to settle in the US and was pulling a scam all along). Still that is her prerogative. But given that she was an Indian citizen, Indian govt is within rights to go after her, so why your crib? The US certainly feels free to go after its citizens anywhere in the world, so why the double standards?


No hypocrisy here. In case you are referring to Snowden, that would be a different topic. But here, Richard is not perceived as a threat to national security. All she was doing was seeking a new job, for crying out loud.
now think about this- when richards quit, what should devyani have done?

She should have moved on and hired another maid.


Should she have helped richards get another job in the US and migrate to the US? Why?

You ask the question and answer it yourself? OK, the answer is no, she is not obligated to help Richard but at the same time she is also not supposed to thwart attempts of Richard to seek another employer.


Wouldn't that have been worse, bringing richards over on one pretext and then helping her do something else? Devyani did the right thing in reporting richards when she went missing.

She did that because she knew that her ass would be on fire once the feds find out about the other covert contract.

Where is the "force" in any of this.

Pressuring her to return to India, cancelling her passport/visa, charges of larceny, threats to Richard's husband, etc., constitute force.


As an at-will employee, fine, richards could quit. But as an at-will employer, devyani also had rights and obligations here to report richards when she went missing.

Devyani is not a family member of Sangeeta. Don't fool yourself that she reported a missing person because was concerned how Richard would live all alone in the Big Apple.


Dont be making it out to be a sinister act on devyani's part now.

as for your dislike for devyani's father, let's not be bringing popsy reasons into the debate. Let's stick to logic, not the warm fuzzy feelings you get when you see someone.😆

My mistake. You dedicated a couple of paragraphs to the "ugly American" and I totally ignored your feelings. Go ahead. Tell me again how you really feel about "ugly Americans"



CuckooCutter7 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

you're wrong on all counts above. No surprise there😆
1. @violation of wage laws? 😆 Yeah, right. Violation of laws that would be no violations if the Indian MEA had applied under a separate category, something they did not think important given how well they were treating the fat cat americans in India..😆 That's what's so bizarre about american instruction manuals. They criminalize trivia and put millions of americans into jails year in year out (yet their crime stats keep going up)...

2. @ugly americans=> even the americans dont like them and are ashamed of them. But of course, you'd love them wont you? Anything to be different, even if it makes one wrong 😆

3. as for the nonsense you have about richards attempts to find another employer being thwarted, are you kidding? In fact, devyani played that totally by the rule book. If you have someone under your employ, you are expected to report them if you think they have gone absconding into the bylanes of arizona. 😆 More generally, haven't you heard of no-compete and other clauses whereby american employers regularly "thwart" the designs of employees that leave? So let's not bring up BS to keep this going. Thwarting and pressure tactics, in fact downright lying, it's the american way. That's how they got so many lawyers graduating from Columbia and Harvard. Folks need to find something to do after that expensive education.😆

4. @people who lied to migrate=>oh come on. Are you telling us that all those nice IITians over the decades should be turned over? Anyone with half a mind knows that the indian student who tells the immigration officer that he intended to return is almost always lying. Most return only when they can find no jobs, else they stay back (and that should answer the burning question you had up there).😆

5. @society=> society is better off precisely because those bright minds lied on their applications, migrated out west, created companies that added value to society. Not like the free-loading richards family that will be sucking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year out of the system and adding 0 cent in value.. But of course, trust you to make the wrong trade there.😆

6. threats to mr. richards=> yeah, apparently he had a habit of committing fraud. Nasty character i tell you. 😆The courts in india were investigating him. But of course, the richards are right and the indian courts are wrong, if we go by what you have to say. Isn't that so?

7. larceny😆 . I mean what a word for what a topic. I love you man. There's always humor.😆

as for the rest of what you had, what did you really have?😆
K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum



as for the rest of what you had, what did you really have?😆




Nothing else. I think you covered pretty much everything there is. If I understand you right, black is white, up is down, victim is criminal and wrong is right, in your cute little bizarro world.

Oh, you forgot to regale us with what you think is a joke/technicality in applications. Were you referring to those baffling arrival-departure forms again, by any chance? Still confused about whether you are coming or going?

K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

How about we play a game "spot the generalizations", just for fun?

Clue words used in support of generalizations: all, none, most, many, always, everyone, never, sometimes, some, usually, seldom, few, lot, lots, generally, in general, and overall.

  • Most people in America don't earn that kind of income after decent degrees.
  • I bet a lot of people dont know how to fill out any form properly
  • Most americans are burger flippers, certainly no better.
  • At 4500 dollars a month (exceeding 51K a year), you'd have most of the world wanting to be US nannies.
  • Lots of white collar people have to be at blackberry beck and call all day/ night long
  • There are a zillion laws that the feds can find most citizens breaking if they go after someone with all their resources
  • Richards was getting a better deal than most of the world gets, and that goes for the average american Joe and Jill too, a lot of whom live on govt handouts.
  • A lot of people would be better off being full-time nannies even at sangeeta richards' pay
  • Indian courts might be notorious in that conviction rates are low and the wheels grind slowly. The positive is they generally do not wrongfully convict people.
  • We (Indians) follow a hybrid that takes the best of english and american legal systems
  • Indian judges have higher IQ than the dumb secretaries and nannies flooding american juries
  • But trust americans to demonize people they want to go after. In fact, people are paid in the US to zealously go after people.
  • Most people who have ever applied for a student visa to the US have been less than totally honest about their intentions.
  • Most intend to settle in the US; yet most everyone state they will return back to India after studies.
  • Given the nonsense American diplomats indulge in world-wide, one would have expected better sense of reciprocity and understanding on their part.
  • (American instruction manuals) criminalize trivia and put millions of americans into jails year in year out (yet their crime stats keep going up)
  • American employers regularly "thwart" the designs of employees that leave using no-compete and other clauses
  • Thwarting and pressure tactics, in fact downright lying, it's the american way.
  • Most (Indians) return (from US) only when they can find no jobs, else they stay back

Bazigar thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
In the french diplomat case the sequence of event is different :

1. The allegation is all of a sudden, police took time before arresting him as he claimed he have diplomatic immunity , so they refer with MEA, .

2. From the statement of local police they were confused and dont want to take any chance as they were not familiar with similar cases earlier involving diplomats . Why they will take a chance to arrest a person who claim having diplomatic immunity and get suspended and create a reason of bitterness among two countries.

3. First they detained him for questioning after they got the confirmation that he dont enjoy diplomatic immunity they arrested him.

France ministry of external affairs did the right thing :

Statement by French MEA spokesperson

We have been informed of the allegation against one of our employees posted at the Consulate General of France in Bangalore and have since been in contact with the local authorities.

An investigation is underway. We cannot, therefore, comment on this at this stage.

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations (1963) does not provide for immunity of jurisdiction for acts committed outside the exercise of consular duties (Article 43)
http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Statement-by-French-MEA

But the funny case is how he is also crying by citing Devyani case :)

As a mark of protest and to highlight the case of French diplomat Pascal Mazurier and Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade,Child Rights Initiative for Shared Parenting (CRISP) is organising a protest on Sunday.

"I have been fighting to see my 3 children who have been snatched away from me since June 2012. I pray to India and to my country France to realize the pain and trauma inflicted on me and on my mother," said Pascal Mazurier.

Mazurier, a French diplomat serving as a deputy consul in the French Consulate General in Bangalore was suspended earlier. He was accused in July 2012 of raping his 3-year-old daughter by his wife Suja Jones-Mazurier, following a marital dispute. He was denied access to see his children by the French authorities. He was strip-searched, beaten by a mob and jailed for four months with hardened criminals during the course of his trial. "Today, when India is standing up to support the Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in the USA, the ill-treatment I have faced until now is comparable to the humiliation she is facing," he said.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/bangalore/Protest-in-Solidarity-With-Diplomats-Today/2013/12/22/article1958983.ece




Edited by ramjaane - 11 years ago
Bazigar thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Will add another scrap in these 40 pages
There are different perspective

Devyani's aspiration :

1.How much people advocate for her but the real point is Devyani didnot wish to leave US even after expose of fraud and allegation of labour exploitation. She can do it quite easily long before, If we look at bigger picture then everything must be cleared to her long before, so also to MEA and arrest or action on the same must have imminent , may be she thought that she will escape this case and she did not expect US atorney will pursue case in such a way .

a. Being a Indian Diplomat she married to a US national that too having such sensitive post in US . Her family interest and personal interest lies in US.

b. Her husband kids all are green card holder , so ultimately she can also opt for a citizen of US after few years , whenever she wish.

c. GOI , media everyone fighting for her but her dream lies in US. Being a diplomat-govt. employee she must know she will get different assignment in different nation still she is crying for US post forget about her kids education, she even claim what if they opt for career there , how she can unite with them blah blah. After using India , hamper bilateral ties between two friendly nations she have aspiration that people will stood for her family now. That means India gave a opportunity to her to be MBBS on subsidised education , created an environment where a caste ( which she and papa using as defense every now and than ) belong to sweeper rise to represent India in USA as diplomat but her ultimate dream lies in US.

Reason why sangeeta fight back :

Aspiration vs. Reality

Just like Devyani have dream of US , same like Sangeeta have aspiration of US so called soneki chidiya shown by Devyani.

1. The indictment clearly says she promised salary of 25000 + 5000 overtime. This salary contract she did in the neck of moment , before flying to US . Before that in verbal communication she must have gave assurance for better pay for overtime so also assurance of good working condition.

2. The other thing is in verbal conversation she told her regarding timing for work and Sunday , holiday etc but in actually she forced her to work without any time bound. Here also conflict of aspiration vs. reality rises. Available for 24 hour expectation of work is common in India where people exploit maid so it is normal to believe this thing is true as mentioned in indictment .

3. She went there with having certain aspiration but forced to work for long hour , the proportion of salary to working hour also decreased in proportionate level like 3 to 1 , where as actual contract mentioned 9 dollar per hour as per minimum wage. So here she also did not got even 3 dollar as promised.

4. She have certain aspiration , if she prepared to work for long hour with less pay then certainly she must not have that expectation in US . We can site 30000 as good amount of money but the fact is she can get half of that salary even working in India that too staying with her family in Delhi. Certainly the aspiration is not that she is going to some middle east or any third world country where she will get the pay on same working condition. So certainly she resented, certainly she wanted to come back from there which Devyani must have denied.


Sangeeta vs. Devyani

Here the matter certainly dragged for prolonged period when some ego clashes of Devyani that how could a maid who is alien to a new country can challenge her being in such a powerful position . She just thought that she can save 1000 dollar by conning a maid and extract as much work as she wish , i think she could have get away with this also if she stick to working hour condition and holidays etc. that she mentioned in verbal contract. When there is a aspiration vs. reality of salary , working hour , environment have huge gap then certainly it is obvious any employee will revolt. Here in this case she did the same after working for more than a longer period, even she tried to come back India which certianly Devyani did not allowed reason may be she did lot of back paper work to get visa for her employee and secondly why she will again grind in the process of finding another English speaking maid again, third where can she buy such cheap labour in US , fourth she never expected in her wild dream that the event will take such turn .

Devyani and her father gave every false statement and use media, emotion of people. They just created an aura as if they are only speaking truth like Devbani. So here in this case i will believe in the sequence mentioned in indictment rather than their statement when their each and every statement indicate manipulation. Pick anything they claim cavity search , US authority deny the same - cant afford minimum wage fact say different story etc. She put question to people how she afford 9 dollar per hour as mentioned and committed in contract to a maid with less salary , the whole media agree with her even without bothering how conveniently she forget her husband income. So also it normal for us to be in disbelief how can a maid get this much salary of say 1500 dollar but it is a labour law just like Devyani get salary of 5000 based on labour law. Just simple when in Rome do as Romans do.

So as the case abruptly ended without conclusion, i prefer to believe on the indictment rather than Devyani who falsify each statement and ran away from facing judiciary. So all in all so called sone ki chida US achieved by the employee and the employer sulk herself in India. We sometime get name calling just because of some difference in opinion, some even question others commitment to country .Question is where is the patriotism of Devyani on whose name she fought this battle , when everyone vouch for pride and dignity of her , now she is worrying about her US entry rather than pride and dignity of India , cant her family settle in India cant her kids study in India and get the opportunity like she got or she is just trying to use the emotion and mood of country to pursue for her own personal gain? She is aiming for her own personal aspiration by using India and nothing else.

Question is - are these IFS bureaucrats are different clan and should treated royally ? after all we are living in a democracy not some kingdom , they represent people not some king so at least honesty is expected from them instead shamelessly try to escape law and create conflict among countries , intentionally drag the whole country for self defense and our GOI give assignment to such people who have already some tainted history . Even as per rule she did not enjoy diplomatic immunity , so why she should expect preferential treatment at all. Diplomatic immunity question is there to save diplomat to work in hostile countries, false cases, vendetta etc. not for pursue of personal goal for these royal people, not to use as shield from fraud, labour exploitation etc.

Link of indictment and sequence of event mentioning exploitation :
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/world/us-v-devyani-khobragade-indictment/739/

@K

Now papa khobragade already preparing for election after gaining so much publicity Its really an art how these two use every media , every resources of GOI , even no one question of verify their statements.

"She will be in Mumbai for at least a week," said her father Uttam Khobragade, who is reportedly in talks with political parties and likely to contest the next Lok Sabha polls.
Devyani also plans to visit the Ambedkar memorial at Chaityabhoomi in Dadar.

At last so called sone ki chidiya US is phurrr for Devyani , even as per rule they will loose both Adarsh flat and money they invested . Only thing is US should return back tax payers money $250000 bond they kept as surety.



Edited by ramjaane - 11 years ago
441597 thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
One thing is confusing: What was Devyani indicted for exactly----Visa Fraud or minimum wage violation? Some are saying its just the former, while others keep on harping about low wages and supposedly "bad" work conditions.

Btw, how exactly did Sangeeta gush about her employer to her sister in India (homely environment, free accomodation-insurance-travel, long hours of watching TV etc. etc ?) when she was being mercilessly crushed all over? Beats me.

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