Freedom of expression/Inflaming religious senti's - Page 5

Originally posted by: Aya.

@Rehanism

Islam is a religion of Peace. It's not an opinion. It's a fact !

2nd: What are you exactly trying to prove by showing those pictures ?!

Ahh, so If I were to go out to protest & write on my board, "Behead those who say Christianity, Judaism, Hunduism, Atheism is violent !!"

What would you say then ?!

Would it seriously be right to blame religion ?!

Why don't you point your fingers at humanity rather than pointing your fingers at Islam ?!

So many innocent people died in the war of Irag, Afganistan, & Palestine & still the blame is on Islam & Muslims ?! They are still called terrorists ?! Really ?!

There are good & bad people in this world. Blame humanity ! Not religion ! Religion has nothing to do with this ! It's us humans !

You claim that you read all the Holy books, but I DOUBT IT !

Because CLEARLY in the Quran, Chapter 5 Verse 32, it says...

"If anyone kills an innocent person it would be as if he killed the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind."

You & others can try so hard to change the verses of the Quran, but the truth is, you won't ever be able to do so, because millions of people memorize the Quran BY HEART !

A religion at best is a path in life. It is something that guides people of faith. Ideally, it is peaceful and harmonious. Unfortunately, our world is not ideal. That is why I view religion as something neutral. It is neither peaceful nor violent. It is people who make it violent or peaceful. That is why almost every religion will have violent and peaceful aspects depending on the people who follow it.

I feel Rehan was merely trying to show the irony within the recent protests. A movie was made that portrayed Muslims as barbaric and violent. It was a gross generalization and misrepresented Islam. However, in order to protest the movie some extremist factions resorted to barbarism and violence. That is ironic and counterproductive to proving that "Islam is Peaceful". Of course Muslims will be offended and have every right to protest against it peacefully and through legal litigation. Any reasonable person knows not all Muslims are like that. Most ordinary Muslims also don't want these barbaric violent extremists representing their religion. That is why so many Muslims in Libya protested against the attack on the consulate.

Why blame religion?

I agree the blame lies with the people, not with the religion. However, we have to realize that violence was committed in the name of religion. Religious leaders encouraged and let the violence. So no matter how hard we try it becomes difficult to separate the religion from its people. In this case the violence was committed in the name of Islam. Accepting that fact leads to accountability. If we say it is just human nature, we easily sweep the problem under the rug. But accepting accountability makes us realize that people are misusing religion, some religious leaders are poor representatives and we need to bring about changes and reforms so we can rebuild the image of a peaceful religion.

Jerry Sandusky was a child abuser, Penn State as a whole was innocent and a good university. Yet what Jerry did tarnished the reputation of a whole University. They had to acknowledge their bad apples and try and fix things. They could not say Jerry was a bad individual and wash their hands of it. Similarly Islam as a whole maybe innocent. But some Muslims are terrorists. Islam cannot just wash their hands of it. People are doing bad things under their banner and Muslims have to step up and fight against it.

Learning anything by rote does not imply understanding or responsibility. In fact by rote learning without comprehension is one of the most dangerous forms of knowledge. The problem is that Islam does have several verses that encourages fighting against infidels. Many Muslims don't consider infidels to be innocent. Many believe that if someone does not accept Allah or follow the teachings of Mohammed they are not innocent and taking their life is no crime. Every person who reads something has a personal interpretation. What you understand and interpret when you read a Quran is different when someone else reads the Quran. Some Muslims interpret peace and harmony and treat every life as precious and innocent. Some don't.

Islam is not the only religion with this conundrum. The old testament also has several commandments for the children of Israel to fight against barbarians. It has several commandments to stone people, kill people over frivolous things. Even Christianity had its barbaric phases. The religion evolved and tried to reconcile conflicting interpretation to be more harmonious. Christians shed some rigid notions of sin and abomination and interpreted the Bible in a more peaceful manner. Almost all belief systems have unsavory aspects or interpretations that need to be addressed or reconciled.

So when someone cites a passage that appears to cite violence, it is better not to get defensive. Some people out there with minimal education, lack of compassion, those who are easily brainwashed will interpret it in the wrong way and be violent in the name of religion. Acknowledge it as a challenge Islam has to face as it evolves and grows into a religion that finds its place amidst others as a peaceful religion. Every religion has to go through the phase of introspection and reconciliation with changing times - over and over again.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The problem is that Islam does have several verses that encourages fighting against infidels.

Originally posted by: Freethinker112

If he doesn't have those forms, I can sue him and have the videos taken down.

Originally posted by: Aya.

Not going to reply to the rest, since I agree with half of what you said, but @bold please copy & paste the verses.

I'll post the references when I recharge my Nook and can go through my Quran.

Originally posted by: Aya.

& if he has the forms, you can't take down the video he made about you & your family ?

People blaming the religion are wrong. Not all Muslims are bad nor the Islam is bad(only if it does not condone this activity, otherwise it is wrong. I am not in a position to comment because I haven't read Quaran.) People are wrong and people are bad. But the religion is accountable too. Why? Because people are using that to base and justify their misdeeds.

Originally posted by: Freethinker112

If I sign a form that says he is allowed to use me and my family in a video and give it to him, why the hell will I ask him to take it down? Signing implies I gave him permission and was okay with it. And if I don't want a video to be made, why will I sign the forms in the first place?

Originally posted by: Aya.

@Rehanism

You claim that you read all the Holy books, but I DOUBT IT !

Because CLEARLY in the Quran, Chapter 5 Verse 32, it says...

"If anyone kills an innocent person it would be as if he killed the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind."

You & others can try so hard to change the verses of the Quran, but the truth is, you won't ever be able to do so, because millions of people memorize the Quran BY HEART !

It seems you, like countless others - that includes Bush and Obama - have read those verses without bothering to understand the history, origin or context.

This verse refers to the story of Cain and Abel from Bible. Cain and Abel were two brothers, children of Adam and Eve. On one instance, both offered sacrifices to God but God was more pleased by Abel, which inspired a sense of envy and betrayal in Cain and he killed Abel. Following which God revealed that he cannot kill Cain in retaliation as Cain was the only man alive on earth (and thus killing him would be tantamount to putting an end to mankind), however he banished Cain from the land.

What is even more fascinating about this verse - "he who destroys one soul of a human being, the Scripture considers him as if he should destroy a whole world, and him who saves one soul of Israel, the Scripture considers him as if he should save a whole world" - is that its not there in the Torah. Actually, it was the commentary of Jewish Rabbis of the Torah. But Muhammad, who was illiterate and whose knowledge was limited to oral stories of the Jewish and Christian lores, was incapable of discriminating between Biblical verses and Rabbianic commentaries..He plagiarized both of them invariably and attributed them to his god Allah.

Even if we choose to ignore its history, that would have been a very nice verse indeed, but there's still one little problem - the Islamic interpretation of the word "innocent' is a bit different from our secular understanding. In Islamic/Abrahamic context, "innocent" literally means faithful or believer (i.e. Muslims).

Here's how the commentators have interpreted this verse:


"Because of that, which Cain did, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, slain, or for, other than, corruption, committed, in the land, in the way of unbelief, fornication or waylaying and the like, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, by refraining from slaying, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind ' Ibn 'Abbas said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul's] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, overstepping the bounds through disbelief, killing and the like." [Tafsir Al Jalalyn]

"'Sa'id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people.'' In addition, Ibn Jurayj said that Al-A'raj said that Mujahid commented on the Ayah, (it would be as if he killed all mankind) "He who kills a believing soul intentionally, Allah makes the Fire of Hell his abode, He will become angry with him, and curse him, and has prepared a tremendous punishment for him, equal to if he had killed all people, his punishment will still be the same.'' Ibn Jurayj said that Mujahid said that the Ayah, (and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.) means, "He who does not kill anyone, then the lives of people are safe from him.'' [Ibn Kathir's Tafsir]


Abrahamic religions divide the world into Believers and Non-Believers..Believers are in God's camp and shall be rewarded with eternal life in heaven and Non-believers belong to Satan's camp and are bound for hell. Disbelief is the worst crime and Disbelievers, far from being "innocent", are the worst creatures in the eyes of Allah and they have two options before themselves - either convert to Islam or accept 2nd class citizenship (aka Dhimmi) under Islamic State. Additionally the punishment for "mischief" - that literally means blasphemy, fornication, homosexuality, adultery, apostasy, heresy or hypocrisy - is death by crucifixion or beheading. I suppose you have not read, or perhaps chosen to ignore, the numerous verses (and their contexts!!) that speak of Allah's hatred of disbelievers and the horrors of hell that await them..

In any case, I was not trying to prove the demonic nature of Islam in my previous posts, I was merely trying to insinuate how those who scream "Death to America", "Europe, your 9/11 is coming" or "Freedom, Go to hell" can do so only because the same Western society gives them that freedom and defends their rights to blurt out all that filth.

And to clarify something, despite my contempt for the Religion of Peace and its blessed Prophet (and the very concept of religion in general), I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists or only Muslims deserve to be called terrorists and I would oppose anyone who says so..There are terrorists and fanatics all over the world - both of religious as well as secular nature. But I do think - and I have strong evidence to back up this claim - that religions and cults have the ability to bring out the worst of humans unlike any thing else.